An Example of Non-T Behavior

Off Topic
141

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
JW, I don’t know why SHE said it, and I can’t ask her. But what’s going on here, it’s much more than “noting his race”. It is an adjective that evokes certain emotions and imagery, and they aren’t positive (I know this, because if they WERE positive, or neutral, it wouldn’t make sense in the context it’s being used in).

Further, to the people saying that if he (the attacker) were white, he would have been sentenced more harshly, that’s ridiculous. Not to get into who gets sentenced how, or who even gets arrested (racial profiling plays a huge part in this, I’m sure), let’s look at the US gov’s track record:

a) Groups, such as KKK do nothing but terrorize minorities, commit gruesome murders and repress human rights, nothing happens, except for the odd arrest if there is overwhelming evidence

b) Groups, such as the Panthers and the NOI try to teach self-defense, drug abstinence, feed the poor, and help their communities, and the government declares war on them. What follows is assassination, false arrests, disappearances and defamation.

But it takes a lot of balls to compare a beating in a pizza shop to the systematic racism shown by the LAPD, including brutalizing citizens, planting evidence and forcing false confessions. Although corruption and drug traffiking are probably the primary causes, racism has played a major part in the means employed. It must take brass balls to think you could pull off a comparison like that with no one noticing.[/quote]

I just don’t follow you.
So…okay, I’m trying.
If the people on this board are racist for saying things like “the fat black guy” or “the giant black guy”, why isn’t the woman racist–instead of being merely ‘negative’ when she says what she says?
I get a little tired of being in danger of or actually being labeled as a bigot or a racist for shit I haven’t done, or shit that I see other people doing. And the double standard that I think you’ve set up here does this.
I think you might be a little bit off-base on your depiction of the Panthers etc.
And your description of the KKK.
The Klan has become the stuff of joke anymore. You see them on Jerry Springer and stuff. More arrests probably aren’t made because their continued exposure is actually causing them harm–thankfully.
And, speaking of the Klan, how come no prominent black person has come forward to condemn former grand dragon or whatever they call it Robert Byrd, D, SC?

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Well, I certainly agree with you. But I do wonder what sort of media coverage it would have gotten nationally had it been white on black. I’m thinking headlines for a week, anyway.

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[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Rainjack, what if the supreme court had ruled that white people were never intended to be citizens, and therefore the constitution did not apply to them? What if white people had been enslaved for a few hundred years, then after “emancipation” whites were not only denied the vote (and if the got it, racist groups of blacks suppressed it, so it did not matter), but were falsely accused of murder, so as to be imprisoned and forced to work for free?

What if there had never been a white president, and the only whites in office were bafoons whose only job is to take the heat when something goes wrong? What if white people were forced into ghettos, denied opportunities, brutalized, incarcerated and ridiculed by the rest of society?

What if the white unemployment rate was nearly triple the black unemployment rate? What if white communities were intentionally flooded with drugs in order to destroy white nationalism? What if the government then declared a “war on drugs”?

In your hypothetical scenario, are all the above true also? I mean, if you are going to flip races in the situation, you have to go all the with it, or else it wouldn’t make any sense, would it?

My point is, don’t make it something it’s not. Like Prof X said, if it had been black on black, you never would have heard of it; the police would have probably decided it was a drug deal gone bad and that would have been the end of it.[/quote]

You know what? I’m trying to respect you, but that’s just stupid.
True enough, there’s never been a black president. Whoopee. I’ve never been president either.
I thought we weren’t supposed to notice skin color?
And, I think there will be one, soon. I think Ms. Rice might very well be the next president.
Maybe things would be a little easier if black people didn’t come across as eating their own? I’ve never heard a single prominent black person say anything good about Clarence Thomas, and you have to look awfully hard to find good things said about Colin Powell or Condi Rice. The message seems to be that black people are supposed to only think one way. And of course, we know that’s not true, right?
And do you really believe that the “white government” is responsible for flooding the black community with drugs? In other words, are you saying that we as white people are responsible for everything that’s wrong with black people and the black community in this country? Because that sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me, a good way to avoid having to take responsibility for yourself and your community.
And, dammit, you don’t sound that way in your posts. And I don’t believe you’d be here if that’s really how you felt.
So I must be way off base with my conclusions. I’d appreciate it if you’d hold off flaming me and just explain to me, thanks!
To bring this sort of back to the topic: with the logic I think I see…we could argue that the white guy had it coming from the black guy? Just as payback for all this opression?

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I’m curious where you get these conspiracy theories about the history of drugs in America from?

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[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Rainjack, what if the supreme court had ruled that white people were never intended to be citizens, and therefore the constitution did not apply to them? What if white people had been enslaved for a few hundred years, then after “emancipation” whites were not only denied the vote (and if the got it, racist groups of blacks suppressed it, so it did not matter), but were falsely accused of murder, so as to be imprisoned and forced to work for free?[/quote]

These statements, as true as they may be, are irrelevant to this discussion. I’m not debating, nor am I trying to minimize, the plight of the black man in history. I left out the rest of your statements, as they are all trying to make the same point.

Let me ask you this - are you saying that the only hate crimes that can be committed in this country are those that whites perpetrate on blacks? And that, regardless of how heinous the crime, that it is not hate that motivates the balck man, but justification?

What if there had never been a white president, and the only whites in office were bafoons whose only job is to take the heat when something goes wrong? What if white people were forced into ghettos, denied opportunities, brutalized, incarcerated and ridiculed by the rest of society?

You could say the same thing about it being white on white violence. But - had it been a white on black crime, with the racial slurs, you would have had Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and the Nation of Islam on CNN so fast it would make your head spin. The incident would have been labeled a racial beating, and the the white bully would have been tried and convicted of a hate crime.

I’m not saying I would have disagreed with that,either.

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I can’t believe that this has turned into an argument about race.

For all those who think that had it been a black victim it would have had more coverage, the white assailants would have had harsher sentences, I don’t know how you are comming up with evidence to support these ideas. Evidence shows that black people serve longer sentences. They get the death penalty [much] more frequently.

I see it the opposite. Being that the victim was white, it probably got more coverage. White America fears nothing more than a violent 300 pound black dude. It plays right into the hands of the headlines and makes a great story for the evening news.

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What I ask myself is; would she have cut in line if it was a line full of black people? It’s hard to say. Maybe she walked in there thinking she’s superior and she didn’t like the fact that the white boy stood up to her.

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Oh shit, now this is a political thread.

Joe Weider, you call black people who disagree with Justice Thomas as “eating their own”? Give me a fuckin break. Look, I’m a straight up white boy and I hate Clarence Thomas.

Has this ever occurred to you: Most black politicians who rise to higher offices are conservative. And for a reason. Look at the politicians you just named. With the exception of Colin Powell, they can be considered Uncle Toms.

So because some black people disagree with other black politicians they are ‘eating their own’?

There really are racial undertones on this board.

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[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
Oh shit, now this is a political thread.

Joe Weider, you call black people who disagree with Justice Thomas as “eating their own”? Give me a fuckin break. Look, I’m a straight up white boy and I hate Clarence Thomas.

Has this ever occurred to you: Most black politicians who rise to higher offices are conservative. And for a reason. Look at the politicians you just named. With the exception of Colin Powell, they can be considered Uncle Toms.

So because some black people disagree with other black politicians they are ‘eating their own’?

There really are racial undertones on this board. [/quote]

I’m saying that you can disagree with Clarence Thomas or whoever without ridiculing them as being an Uncle Tom or whatever. In a perfect world I’d think Jesse Jackson would come out and say “while I disagree with just about everything Justice Thomas stands for, I’m very proud that a strong black man is serving black and white America. Let him be an example and inspiration to black children everywhere.” or something.
So fuck you and calling me a racist.
And black people get the death penalty more often because they’re poorer, and get worse lawyers, and because proportionately there are more black people arrested for capital crimes.
But I suppose that’s my fault too?

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[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
Oh shit, now this is a political thread.

Joe Weider, you call black people who disagree with Justice Thomas as “eating their own”? Give me a fuckin break. Look, I’m a straight up white boy and I hate Clarence Thomas.

Has this ever occurred to you: Most black politicians who rise to higher offices are conservative. And for a reason. Look at the politicians you just named. With the exception of Colin Powell, they can be considered Uncle Toms.

So because some black people disagree with other black politicians they are ‘eating their own’?

There really are racial undertones on this board. [/quote]

And while we’re on the subject, somehow I dont think a ‘straight-up white boy’ is an expert on Uncle Toms.
THAT sounds racist to me.
Punk ass bitch.

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JW, you seem to not understand how concerned the US government was with black nationalism.

People talk about “conspiracy nuts”, well, it’s amazing what declassified information is available these days. Why don’t you take a look?

Tell me, if you spoke with someone, and they denied the holocaust happened, would you suspect they were anti-semetic? Because what is going on in north america right now is analogous to denying the holocaust. It just so happens one denial is acceptable, while the other is not. I suspect this is because these days, racism is a lot more mainstream than anti-semetism (not to say the later doesn’t exist, and is not a serious problem).

rainjack, I am not saying that blacks aren’t motivated by hate. All I am saying is a person reacts to their environment. If you want to mess with the specifics of the situation to guage the emotional response of others, you need to change the hypothetical environment too.

Do you think that white on black crime receives too much publicity? Have you considered the reason? Here’s a hint: of the cases of white-on-black violence that are actually reported, how many times is the white assailant in a position of power? Compare that to when the attacker is black.

Sure, you hear of things like this video shows, where a black guy beats a white guy down for no reason. But when is the last time you heard of a group of black police officers killing an innocent white man? Or raping him with a plunger? Or shooting them while they have a seizure in their car?

These examples are a bit old, but Diallo, Luima and Miller came to mind right away.

When is the last time you heard of a black politician being affiliated with any sort of black nationalist organization? Compare this to white politicians being affiliated with the klan, and suddenly the picture of institutionalized racism becomes clearer.

So I am asking you again, in this hypothetical situation, where the attacker is white and the victim is black, has the rest of society been adjusted accordingly?

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-Most men will do anything possible to avoid a street fight. (Fight Club)

I’m glad I saw this video

Some thoughts:

-To me the most revolting part of the video aside from the violence is the man in the lower right of the frame, his back to the scene, trying to ignore what is going on. THe blank look on his face and the fact he couldn’t even bear to watch is quite disturbing.

-There is a country in Europe, I can’t recall which, where you are punishable if you don’t intervene to prevent crime when its reasonably safe to do so. An armed robbery would not qualify.
I think that this is a good law.

-This has further strengthened my resolve that if a similar situation is occurring and I see it, I will do what it takes to prevent real harm from occurring.

A long time ago I was playing street ball, and during my game, a man repeatedly pie-faced a 12-13 yr old kid who was not intimidated by him on the court and was playing better.

I didn’t say anything or do anything, and I regret it- but thank goodness it never went beyond that and I believe the man left soon after.

I have since stepped in to break fights since that time, while avoiding a few of my own.

  • I realize that being the same size of the man committing the violence, and having trained in MMA and professional wrestling, as well as a little bouncing and a year as a hotel detective, makes it easier for me than many to say that.

However, I also admit that I get immediately nervous and somewhat intimidated in a confrontation, and I have to force myself to stay calm and level-headed. This makes me no different than most anyone else who is not a serious badass.

Somewhat related:

-Always avoid a fight. Always. I go to clubs quite a bit, and make it a point, ALWAYS, to apologize for bumping into people. If I think they don’t hear me, I say it again, louder. ANd I smile. I say a lot of “Excuse mes” as well. Nothing will get you in trouble or kicked out quicker than a chick starting trouble with you, whether its in a nightspot or even at work, especially a low-end job.

I’ve learned that the hard way, both on the street and at work.

Re: the race issue, nothing much to say. I think that the attackers are simply pieces of crap and it may have happened regardless of race.

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The burden of proving a conspiracy theory is on the one who promotes it, not on the one who questions or rejects it. If you want people to believe in the theory that black communities have been targeted for drugs, then you should at least cite the docuements/sources, if not provide links.

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[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
So I am asking you again, in this hypothetical situation, where the attacker is white and the victim is black, has the rest of society been adjusted accordingly?[/quote]

Yes, the Rodney King beating was racial. So was what Reginald Denny did. I’m not denying that all of those you listed were indeed racial.

I’m not keeping a score card. It sounds to me that you are waiting for black on white crimes to catch up (what ever societal adjustments that may entail) with white on black before you are willing to admit that what transpired had racial undertones.

All I’m asking for is just some intellectual honesty. I don’t think I’ve come across as carrying any baggage into this discussion. It appears that you have. Once again - please don’t mistake that as me trying to downplay the way blacks have been treated. In this situation, there were racial slurs thrown about, and a man was beaten severely. To me, that is a hate crime, and it should have been prosecuted as such.

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The bystanders should go to jail.

[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
The burden of proving a conspiracy theory is on the one who promotes it, not on the one who questions or rejects it. If you want people to believe in the theory that black communities have been targeted for drugs, then you should at least cite the docuements/sources, if not provide links.[/quote]
http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/webb.html

http://www.lycaeum.org/drugwar/DARKALLIANCE/

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[quote]Joe Weider wrote:

I’m saying that you can disagree with Clarence Thomas or whoever without ridiculing them as being an Uncle Tom or whatever. In a perfect world I’d think Jesse Jackson would come out and say “while I disagree with just about everything Justice Thomas stands for, I’m very proud that a strong black man is serving black and white America. Let him be an example and inspiration to black children everywhere.” or something.
So fuck you and calling me a racist.
And black people get the death penalty more often because they’re poorer, and get worse lawyers, and because proportionately there are more black people arrested for capital crimes.
But I suppose that’s my fault too?

[/quote]

How blind are you? I consider him an “uncle Tom”, therefore, I will never state that I am glad he is in that position. Him being in that position as an Uncle Tom does me no good whatsoever other than to promote the ideologies that I don’t agree with. You think I should be proud of him SIMPLY because he is black? You can’t possibly be this stunted in social growth that you believe this to be the case. Yet you wonder why you were treated like a racist in college? Look at the things you say.

You were obviously raise devoid of any other interactions with cultures other than your own. That is not a positive considering that being in the world on your own has still left you behind the curve. You refuse to see the world through the eyes of anyone else but yourself and then wonder why people respond to you like they do. Clarence Thomas is not respected because many consider him a dick. Him being black doesn’t change that. I don’t go around putting people on pedestals simply because they are black in powerful positions. Collin Powell gets much respect for many reasons but mostly because of his mentality and the way he presents himself. For you to react to the general feelings of Thomas as if we are “eating our own” does show some racial bias by you. It might be time for you to wake up and realize that.

For the record, I have no negative feelings towards Condi Rice. She is doing her job and apparently, she is doing it well. I may not agree with her positions on many issues, but I respect her as a person. You are the only one who seems to see things ONLY within color lines.

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[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:

I see it the opposite. Being that the victim was white, it probably got more coverage. White America fears nothing more than a violent 300 pound black dude. It plays right into the hands of the headlines and makes a great story for the evening news.[/quote]

Funny, I remember saying something extremely similar and being told by JeffR that this was not the case and that the statement was racist. I wonder where he is now that one of his own people agrees with that statement.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
How blind are you? I consider him an “uncle Tom”, therefore, I will never state that I am glad he is in that position. Him being in that position as an Uncle Tom does me no good whatsoever other than to promote the ideologies that I don’t agree with. You think I should be proud of him SIMPLY because he is black? You can’t possibly be this stunted in social growth that you believe this to be the case. Yet you wonder why you were treated like a racist in college? Look at the things you say.

You were obviously raise devoid of any other interactions with cultures other than your own. That is not a positive considering that being in the world on your own has still left you behind the curve. You refuse to see the world through the eyes of anyone else but yourself and then wonder why people respond to you like they do. Clarence Thomas is not respected because many consider him a dick. Him being black doesn’t change that. I don’t go around putting people on pedestals simply because they are black in powerful positions. Collin Powell gets much respect for many reasons but mostly because of his mentality and the way he presents himself. For you to react to the general feelings of Thomas as if we are “eating our own” does show some racial bias by you. It might be time for you to wake up and realize that.

For the record, I have no negative feelings towards Condi Rice. She is doing her job and apparently, she is doing it well. I may not agree with her positions on many issues, but I respect her as a person. You are the only one who seems to see things ONLY within color lines.
[/quote]

Okay, let’s see if I get this straight–I already fucking said I was raised in a very small town in a very small state and that the first black person I had any interaction with was in 7th grade–and he’d been raised exactly as I had.
I already said that when I went to college, even though the school didn’t have a very big black student population I was excited about the idea of being able to finally interact with black people and maybe start to understand this shit a little. I’ve already said all that…why are you using it as a club against me?
Why is it that I get along fine with people of all other cultures, if I’m so fucking racist?
And why, dammit, when I say that I don’t understand something, but that I want to learn, want to understand, are you attacking me as being racist–which is in my mind the second ugliest thing you can accuse a person of.
In all honesty, Prof, I think that perhaps that might say more about you than it does me.

Alexandr has been throwing up examples of all kinds of examples where all blacks have been wronged because of a specific incident. So why can’t that work in reverse?
Yeah, so you don’t like Clarence Thomas. BFD. Couldn’t he still be put up to black kids as an example that with hard work (harder work than white kids, I’m sure) you can really get somewhere, that you don’t have to settle for using or selling all those US government supplied drugs?
And, Prof, I don’t refuse to see the world through eyes other than my own. Goddammit, I’ve been trying to understand the point of view of others. I may not have a whole lot of opportunity, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to try. And yet, when I try, I wind up being called a racist?
That’s supposed to make me want to try harder? That’s supposed to leave me with positive feelings?

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are the only one who seems to see things ONLY within color lines.
[/quote]

And yet, I haven’t tossed out Rodney King, conspiracy theories about the US government providing AIDS and drugs to the black community, Amadou Diallo or anything else.

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[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Okay, let’s see if I get this straight–I already fucking said I was raised in a very small town in a very small state and that the first black person I had any interaction with was in 7th grade–and he’d been raised exactly as I had.
I already said that when I went to college, even though the school didn’t have a very big black student population I was excited about the idea of being able to finally interact with black people and maybe start to understand this shit a little. I’ve already said all that…why are you using it as a club against me?
Why is it that I get along fine with people of all other cultures, if I’m so fucking racist?
And why, dammit, when I say that I don’t understand something, but that I want to learn, want to understand, are you attacking me as being racist–which is in my mind the second ugliest thing you can accuse a person of.
In all honesty, Prof, I think that perhaps that might say more about you than it does me.

Alexandr has been throwing up examples of all kinds of examples where all blacks have been wronged because of a specific incident. So why can’t that work in reverse?
Yeah, so you don’t like Clarence Thomas. BFD. Couldn’t he still be put up to black kids as an example that with hard work (harder work than white kids, I’m sure) you can really get somewhere, that you don’t have to settle for using or selling all those US government supplied drugs?
And, Prof, I don’t refuse to see the world through eyes other than my own. Goddammit, I’ve been trying to understand the point of view of others. I may not have a whole lot of opportunity, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to try. And yet, when I try, I wind up being called a racist?
That’s supposed to make me want to try harder? That’s supposed to leave me with positive feelings?
[/quote]

What planet are you living on? Unless you show “pride” for every white person in a high position simply because they are white, you should be able to understand this. Unless you only show respect for people because of their skin color and not their actions, you should be able to understand this. How deprived do you think we are as far as morals that we just jump for joy anytime someone black hits success without any thought given to who they are as an individual?