Screw it. This is stupid. The only thing I’m learning here is that anger is justified–as long as it flows the right way–and that I’m an fucking moron. And since I already knew both things, I see no reason to continue with this. I think this thread as it has become needs to die.
Before more feelings get hurt.
[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
The only thing I’m learning here is that anger is justified[/quote]
If that is what you “learned” from this, then I suggest you seek tutorial help on the subject.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
The only thing I’m learning here is that anger is justified
If that is what you “learned” from this, then I suggest you seek tutorial help on the subject.[/quote]
I tried.
After reading this thread I wonder how it got turned into a black/white issue?
Why do so many people want to turn this into a race thing?
If the races were reversed and Al Sharpton was all over the news talking about it, most people would be disgusted with Al Sharpton for making a pointless random assault into a war between the races.
Why do so many people want to emulate Al Sharptons race war behavior?
And please don’t blast me for using Sharptons name. There are plenty of people of all races that act like this. His was the first one that came to mind.
[quote]Jay Sherman wrote:
The bystanders should go to jail.
Moon Knight wrote:
The burden of proving a conspiracy theory is on the one who promotes it, not on the one who questions or rejects it. If you want people to believe in the theory that black communities have been targeted for drugs, then you should at least cite the docuements/sources, if not provide links.
http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/webb.html
http://www.lycaeum.org/drugwar/DARKALLIANCE/
Thank you, that is the kind of evidence I was speaking of. However, all I got, from reading through the basic information presented by Webb(I haven’t yet read all of the articles from the second link) was that definately the CIA allowed drug trafficing to go on. That in itself is alarming, but, the question of whether it was racial seems left up in the air at best.
Some questions yet to be answered include: Was it just the CIA acting on its own for its own self interest or was it administration approved? Was the CIA directing the Contra’s drug policy(ie telling them where to sell) or was it their choice? Were the gangs the only ones to be sold to? Was the middleman that was doing the selling to the gangs an independent or part of the Contra organization(in other words, was he choosing clients)? Why were the gangs chosen? Was it because the Contras or the CIA were out to screw blacks, or(more likely in my opinion) did they simply see the situation the gangs were in as a receptive outlet?
I think something everyone is missing is that the drugs were SOLD to the gangs. The drugs weren’t forced on the gangs, nor given away free to get them addicted(at least as far as I’ve read). There was no threat on their lives if they did not buy drugs. In fact, going a step back, there was no goverment force in place pushing the formation of the gangs(and their continued popularity) in the first place. And taking it a step further in the other direction, there was nothing forcing anyone the gangs were selling to, to buy the drugs from the gangs either.
Should the CIA have been letting the sales go on? No. Was it racially motivated? Questionable. Whether it was racially motivated or not, does the responsability lie completely with the government or the Contras? Hardly in my opinion.
WRT to “conspiracy theories” you seem to be confused. I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything. How would changing your opinion benefit me? It wouldn’t.
While I have seen enough first hand documents to make my decisions (and, keep in mind, these were sanitized), I have no interest in tracking these down again. All the official governement web pages have changed layouts, and I don’t have time.
So, when I tell you to look it up, I don’t mean “look it up so I can win an inane argument that won’t change anything”, I mean “look it up so you won’t sound like an ignorant prick that has no understanding of black history”.
And I did NOT mention AIDS as a conspiracy, ever. The reason is I have never seen any evidence to support this.
As for the assassinations, false arrests and drugs, Mumia is not a free man. That is evidence enough for a “conspiracy”. If you don’t know about Mumia’s case, look it up. Again, this is so you don’t look like an ignorant prick.
Zap, I think what you, Zeb, and others who have come onto the thread late are missing is that most of us are not suggesting that there is anything racial about this incident.
The topic veered away from the initial incident into what ifs about race reversal, or other situations where it might be considered a hate crime(gay/Jewish victim). When that happened some of us discussed it and eventually agreed that yes there probably would have been more fuss made(ie Sharpton like grand standing), yes it likely would have been labeled a hate crime, though, whether the eventual punishment would have been stiffer or not is debatable. We also tended to agree that no THIS incident was not a hate crime, and that IF the incident had been different(as explained above) though it would have been CALLED a hate crime, it would not have been then either. In other words, coming into the pizza place, getting in everyone’s face, then shouting a racial slur at a guy who likely made a mildly antagonizing comment, no matter what the races involved, is not a hate crime.
This is where a number of people popped on the thread and, started suggesting that the incident, as played out WAS a hate crime, or that it was racial.
Meanwhile, I’m trying to explore some of the conspiracy theory that has popped up as an aside here.
[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
I think something everyone is missing is that the drugs were SOLD to the gangs. The drugs weren’t forced on the gangs, nor given away free to get them addicted (at least as far as I’ve read). There was no threat on their lives if they did not buy drugs. In fact, going a step back, there was no goverment force in place pushing the formation of the gangs(and their continued popularity) in the first place. And taking it a step further in the other direction, there was nothing forcing anyone the gangs were selling to, to buy the drugs from the gangs either.[/quote]
I don’t understand your logic. You take a group of people who just ahve enough money to scrape by on food stamps, throw them the means to make a few thousand bucks a day…and you think they won’t take it? Do you honestly think that the outcome was not anticipated? Further, why are you making excuses for it as if you can’t see what the goal was? Do you honestly think there was any other motivation than eventual destruction of a particular group of people? If so, why?
I think minorities have to stop blaming their current situation on what happened 300 yrs ago.
I went to Yale, and when I drove home I saw a lot of grown men doing nothing.
Just a thought to piss everyone off.
Elliot Kolb Ph.D
[quote]rockhard_4eva wrote:
I think minorities have to stop blaming their current situation on what happened 300 yrs ago.
I went to Yale, and when I drove home I saw a lot of grown men doing nothing.
Just a thought to piss everyone off.
Elliot Kolb Ph.D [/quote]
Current situations are the direct result of what happened just before them. You can’t rob someone blind, and then tell them to stop making excuses for why they are poor.
It’s not a matter of what happened 300 years ago. Rather, it’s what happened 300 years ago, what happened 200 years ago, what happened 100 years ago, 50 years ago, 25 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, and what is happening right now.
Reminds me of one of the best lines I have ever heard in a song:
“Calling me an African-American
Like Everything is fair again”
-Ice Cube
Are some people “doing nothing”? Let’s ask a better question: why would someone “do nothing”? Learned helplessness, I suspect, may have a huge part in that. Learned helplessness occurs when, despite your best efforts, you are powerless to change your circumstances. You can create learned helplessness in animals by repeatedly shocking them, no matter what they do. Before long, they stop trying, lie down and do nothing as they receive electric shocks.
What force do you suppose acts (and/or has acted) on black people that they would feel their efforts are futile?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t understand your logic. You take a group of people who just ahve enough money to scrape by on food stamps, throw them the means to make a few thousand bucks a day…and you think they won’t take it? Do you honestly think that the outcome was not anticipated? Further, why are you making excuses for it as if you can’t see what the goal was? Do you honestly think there was any other motivation than eventual destruction of a particular group of people? If so, why?[/quote]
I agree, the outcome was likely anticipated and written off. That was wrong.
However, again, though obviously they had reason to jump at the chance, that does not make it a smart decision on their part. I am relatively poor myself. I do not own a home, nor a car, and the only extra each month goes to a few basic supplements. I don’t even own a tv. The only reason I have a computer is because it was a present from my parents a few years ago at Christmas. I am not saying I’m as poor as they were, however I would say I’m close. I break about even each month. I could go sell drugs, take up a job as a hired hitman, rob peoples’ houses, or go door to door selling defective condoms I got on the cheap. There are plenty of shady ways to make easy money. If my friend offered to let me deal some drugs (and I do know some marijuana dealers here) I would not because the criminal risk, as well as the health risks to those that use and abuse it are too great. I don’t want any part of that.
Additionally, as I stated in my previous post, there are some questions yet to be answered. Its not clear to me whether the Contras or the CIA or the dealer who dealt directly with the gangs, pointed out the black urban communities as targets. Do you think the Contras had it out for the black community? And as I said before, it was a smart business choice. As you said, they would likely jump at the chance, and thus make themselves good dealers for the Contras.
Its possible that the CIA told the Contras to sell exclusively to gangs, but, there are other possabilities as well of equal merit. None of the possabilities as of yet have much evidence directly supporting them so I do not see how claiming the CIA is racially motivated here is the single conclusion one should draw, nor do I think, even if they are a bunch of racist hate-mongers, out to pollute the black community with drugs, that there is not some responsability to be taken by the communities that let it happen.
[quote]Moon Knight wrote:
Additionally, as I stated in my previous post, there are some questions yet to be answered. Its not clear to me whether the Contras or the CIA or the dealer who dealt directly with the gangs, pointed out the black urban communities as targets. Do you think the Contras had it out for the black community? And as I said before, it was a smart business choice. As you said, they would likely jump at the chance, and thus make themselves good dealers for the Contras.[/quote]
Yes. I do believe they targeted the black community and judging by past attempts, especially if you look at the situations surrounding government acts towards the Black Panthers and blacks in general during that time period, I would say that it is not so hard to believe like you are trying to make it seem. These thoughts are common place in the black community. That is one reason someone looking at the situation 30 years later as if they are excluding every act or happening over the last 30 years doesn’t seem to grasp the point.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
What force do you suppose acts (and/or has acted) on black people that they would feel their efforts are futile?[/quote]
You won’t get the response you are looking for. The reason there is this boundary between individuals and understanding of the situation is because no one wants to be seen as being at fault. The real truth is, all parties are at fault and continue to be. One thing we should have learned by now, however, is that ignoring the problem won’t make it go away. Pretending as if there is no problem only makes it worse.
For the record, I am not standing on a street corner and I still a see a problem that needs to be addressed. It would be great if some people didn’t feel they were so superior to others. Go figure.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
This society seems to hate testosterone until a war pops off. Then the momma’s boys run for cover and hope all of the meanies go to war to save their asses. It has gotten sad and quite pathetic. For any man to see a situation like that pop and not do ANYTHING is the largest reflection of pussy-itis I have seen caught on tape…aside from Jenna Jamison.[/quote]
I agree this society is weak and scared.
It?s a good thing I wasn?t there, because I would have killed him were he stood.
?The ultimate outcome of war is to win without combat.?
Paraphrased quote form the Art of War.
Moon knight, although there is strong evidence suggesting the CIA was bringing drugs into the US to finance operations that had to be kept “off the books”, I have not seen any evidence that the CIA were out to get the black community.
However, that is not to say their distribution network wasn’t. It’s fairly well known that the LAPD did a lot of drug dealing. To cover it up, planting on innocent blacks seemed to be a favorite. It wouldn’t surprise me if this was under the direction of the FBI, considering it matched up with their goals pretty well. If the FBI didn’t directly control it, they, at the very least, knew about it and chose to turn a blind eye. After all, it was making their job (crush black nationalism) a lot easier. But this brings to mind another awesome quote:
[quote]
“The crack that did the damage
was the one from the whip”
-The Coup[/quote]
Why would I bring that up? Because the drugs made a bad situation worse. However, the situation was already terrible, and has been terrible for hunderds of years.
fantastic, you would more than likely be in prison holding your ankles and being passed round as currency.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Prof X, I think you have done a good job calling people on their generalizations. And I’m really glad that you (having high status on this forum) have brought up the offensiveness of many of the things said in this thread. All the while, some people insist this was racism, that this was worse than Rodney King, and that all blacks should be put in prison so they can’t hurt our precious white children.[/quote]
The only offensive thing I’ve seen written in this thread until YOU started posting your hate was by the person who informed us that the part of town where this took place is often called “Little Africa” and said “now the rest of the world knows why”. If his reason for saying that was to point out that the area has a larger-than-average population of Blacks and thus is subject to more violence, then it was inappropriate.
[quote]You think that last part is going to far? It hasn’t been said explicitly, but just take a look at these…
In no way do I want to take the big black coward’s side
I’d probably still be in shock if I watched some huge black dude stick up for his girlfriend
The guy on the phone should have started apologising as soon as he saw the massive black dude coming in.
Not true, because there will always be people like that big black dude that other countries will fear.
Now, why do you suppose they have to throw in “black” so many times? There is no need to use it to identify the guy, “the attacker” or “the huge guy” would work just as well. So why is race being mentioned so many times? Because like “vicious”, “savage”, “crazy” and “merciless”, the adjective “black” is used to denote that the person is exceptionally threatening.[/quote]
I guess you’re not aware of it, but you’re the reason why racism still exists in this country to the extent that it does. It is exactly this asinine knee-jerk tendency to accuse anyone who mentions race in any fashion of being a racist that causes people to LOOK for racism where it doesn’t exist and turn everything into a racial issue. The context in which the adjective “white” was used in the video is far different form the context that “black” was used in the above posts, and you know it. You, and Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and their ilk have a vested interest in ensuring that the myth endures that racism is a rampant problem in society to this day, and are the reason why racism remains at the forefront of the public discourse when so many people wish to leave it behind. I am by no means saying that racism doesn’t exist, but it would be far less a problem if people like you didn’t incite hatred in the fashion that you’ve demonstrated.
You’re either hopelessly deluded and brainwashed by the propagandist conspiracy theory tripe that you admit to subscribing to, or you’re knowingly spreading falsehoods in order to fuel what you hope will be perceived as a racist backlash. Which is it?
Professor X seems to me to be an intelligent decent guy, and a person whose opinions I respect and feel I can learn from. I hope he’ll go on to distance himself from the juvenile hatred that you’re attempting to spew here.
You, on the other hand, are a living punchline. You’re the guy in the comedy spoofs who says that pool is a racist game because it’s all about the white ball knocking the black ball into the hole. Are you even aware that your line of thinking is the butt of jokes?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
After reading this thread I wonder how it got turned into a black/white issue?[/quote]
This shouldn’t surprise you at all. Any time black and white people are even in the same room the undercurrent of racial tension is palpable.
–
JMB
[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
…that the myth endures that racism is a rampant problem in society to this day…[/quote]
Myth? If you say so…
But let me guess, you’re a white guy.
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JMB