An apology for Abu Ghraib

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]derek wrote:
Gonzalis, I hope you don’t think I was judging a book by it’s cover. I don’t think you were trying to say that[/quote]

No i was not :slight_smile: Like yourself i have a melting pot of friends, some muslims may think i would need couciling in the way of and electric batton in my nether regions, if i made a complete list.

i think alot of people judge all american troops by the events at abu ghraib.

heres a true story from a survivor of recent events of fallujah, as narrated to a seminar, where this survivor was invited to speak.

A woman (name was not told to me), was left behind in fallujah by her husband during the fighting.she had with her 3 young daughters. Her husband had decided to join the insurgants/rebels/freedom fighters (delete as appropriate)because he did not want his home looted or flatened. At some point word had got to her by the husbands comrades to leave the city. she left the city with her daughters, and was stopped by an american trained iraqi combat unit. They questioned her and decided to have thier way her and her daughters, of who the youngest was 8 or 9. as they were dragged of into the bush off the main road, an american vehicle carrying personnel who saw the situation turned course and intervined on her behalf. scolding the iraqi troops and questioning why they were misusing thier training and trust, this is not what they were trained for, thier job was to defend the very people that they were trying to abuse!
The american troops then escorted the woman and children on to a safe area just outside of fallugah.
The irony is that her husband had gone to fight the very troops that had saved his wife and kids!

Her opinion/views about american troops changed, but it took this event to clear her views, if only her husband had stayed behind maybe he would have changed his views as well. There are far worse things going on in iraq instigated by iraqies themselves and outsiders who are trying to turn iraq into a hell on earth, than that which happened at abu ghraib, and the quicker iraqis and other muslim countries grasp this the sooner iraq can see peace. I dont think the election will have any effect on iraq unless neibouring countries tighten thier borders and stop certain elements getting through.

not sure how to finish this reply, just feel sick when i see whats going on in the world…I am off on pilgrimage end of this year and looking forward to seeing real muslims and what it actually represents and how it should be practiced.

I am hoping that the loss of life ceases soon, and everybody gets to see their loved ones this christmas and new year what-ever thier religions or beliefs. :slight_smile:

my heart goes out to those who have lost
family and friends on all sides,those who have died in the name of justice and honour in defence of the weak and helpless. Especially those who have died at the hands of hate,tyranny and greed.

42

vroom:

My interpretaton of you? Think again oh liberal one.

How many times have you stated that you were a “liberal.” Remember writing this: “Yes, I’m a liberal.” Dosen’t get any clearer than that my boy. How many times have you bashed the USA and President Bush: “As much as I love to bash Bush…” You wrote it, no one else. Don’t try to portray this as simply my interpretation.

As far as you continuing to call me names, I would expect as much. You have no other defense than to name call. I would expect your name calling to continue and would be surprised if it did not.

As far as me, I will continue to “call em as I see em.” Especially when they are so obvious!

43

Zeb,

As said by another poster…

Try addressing an issue. I’ve tried in the past to “contain” your personal agenda to a dedicated thread, but you avoided it.

The fact that liberals denounced your childhood hero and you hate them for it is immaterial. Give people around here a break already.

I don’t mind if you point out what you think are liberal viewpoints, but it would be so nice if you did it while addressing issues. Chopping quotes out of context as “proof” for your vandetta is just plain sad.

Zeb, do you think the ends justify the means? It’s an honest question and it is on topic. Please give the readers a break and address it, or some other issue based aspect of my posts (or even someone elses posts), if you could.

44

vroom:

First of all I challenge you to find the quotes that I mentioned. The meaning has not been twisted in any way, shape or form. You know it, so stop pretending, no one is impressed!

Secondly, I have no “personal agenda.” I think you are paranoid. You are the one who cannot contain himself in most posts. You lash out with personal insults in a good share of them. Do you even read those posts before you hit the “submit” button? And it’s not just me. You are on one thread after another calling people names. I think you have a real problem my friend, but that is not for me to judge…so I’ll stop there.

You want to discuss the issues, okay. Perhaps if you would tone down the ego, stop throwing out the insults, put away your ultra-liberal agenda and stop bashing the USA, we could then discuss the “issues.” Otherwise I am not able to get beyond your “issues” as I have previously stated.

45

[quote]zebelina wrote:
You want to discuss the issues, okay. Perhaps if you would tone down the ego, stop throwing out the insults, put away your ultra-liberal agenda and stop bashing the USA, we could then discuss the “issues.” Otherwise I am not able to get beyond your “issues” as I have previously stated.[/quote]

But still no answer. Just keep attacking vroom for any and every reason you can think up, but what ever you do, avoid answering the question.

Good strategy.

Weak, moronic, immature, pussyfied strategy, but somewhat effective I guess.

46

Zeb,

You are quoting so out of context it isn’t funny… here is you:

Here is the full post. Notice the fact that I am supporting president Bush in this post against concerns raised bacause he received a letter from Bob Jones of BJU.

[quote]Roy,

I can see your concern, but you really have to look for actions by the administration, not those that the administration uses to garner support, before you can really worry.

By showing up at BJU I’m sure Bush won the vote of every brainwashee that went through that place or any like it. It is appropriate to be aware of this and to keep your eyes open because of it, but that’s as far as you’ll get.

As much as I do love to bash Bush, yikes that sounds kind of dirty if you spell it “bush” and not “Bush”, you really can’t fault him for receiving letters implying a relationship. Heck, you or I could set up some wacko splinter group and write implicating letters too.

It’s the return letters you need to be worried about… ;)[/quote]

How can it be anything but your warped interpretation. You take an incorrectly quoted out of context snippet and claim it proves I have an agenda. Too bad the post you quoted would indicate I probably don’t, especially as that post was in defence of Bush.

How moronic is that?

If you want to quote someone, you should make sure to get it exactly correct and truly quote them. Also, context is indeed important. In this case the context shows you to be twisting the facts to support your case. I mean, its hard to believe you are this inept at interpreting things. Either way, it doesn’t say much for you and your vendetta.

So, to summarize, yeah, I said it. I said it as part of a humorous point with sexual innuendo. I said it as part of a post defending president Bush from an incorrect assertion based on a letter he had received.

Yeah, great proof of a liberal agenda bozo. Are you really this dense?

Look, just because your childhood hero was posthomously called a baby killer and a war criminal doesn’t give you license to make crap up and incorrectly quote people to advance your own agenda against liberalism. It is wrong to place words in peoples mouths and/or to quote them out of context to support your claims.

Bzzzt. Thanks for playing Zebenstein. Wrong answer. Say goodbye to your credibility. Please try again.

47

Hey vroom,
I’ll answer the question you posed. I have no problem going out on a limb with this one. Yes our ends justify the means. The first end is to attack and destroy El-Quaida and its cells where ever they may be.The means of doing that-Special Forces operations to gather inteligence and use it to kill those cells.Special Ops are classified as unconventional warfare. Thats where it gets dirty. They are allowed to use corporal interrogation. They are trained in it.Thats one of the many reasons its catagorised as unconventional. If you don’t like that, well too f@#$%ng bad. Then don’t do it.I have a cousin in Afghanastan right now on the hunter-killer squads combing through the mountains and destroying these holed up little bastards and I really want to see him make it back alive. If he has to slap some terrorists around to accomplish this, I hope he slaps them a couple times for me. If you don’t have the stomach for stuff like that, then it probably is best that you hide behind a key board with your pseudo intelectual musings.You certainly don’t have the balls to actualy do something to stop terrorism where it starts,and you sure as hell have no room to criticise the people who are diong something about it,you pussy. And by the way,I saw some of the pictures you posted in another thread.They definitely confirm that you are in fact testicularly challenged.Why dont you go hit some weights or something?

48

Mindeffor,

What, are you Derek under another name or something? :wink:

Glad somebody finally sacked up and addressed the issue anyway.

Hmm, same issues with “intellectuals” as Derek. Nice spelling there Conan.

Hmm, similar personal attacks. Considering I’ve never seen the name before, can’t imagine why you’d “hate” me in advance unless you were already attacking me under another name.

Give me time buddy. If you looked at the pics then you know I’ve made very good progress. Maybe in a year or two I’ll have respectable size and poundages from my own point of view.

Anyhow, to talk about issues, if you’ve been following along you’ll know I’m not against military action or covert operations where needed. I simply disagree that we’ve got a free pass with respect to torture and abuse. In my opinion, it will do more harm then good as it will create more hatred.

Disagree all you want. You don’t have to be an asshole about it… or maybe you do?

49

vroom,
no, I’m definitely not derek.If you look at the very begining of this thread and the one on personal training beind a b.s. degree,you will see that.I don’t have a problem with intellectuals either. I am going to be testing into Mensa within the next month,with all the confidence in the world that I will pass with flying colors.But if you want to knitpick spelling, you might notice that you misspelled my name.What I do have a problem with is a sissy like you who wants to complain and philosophise about a problem you’re not willing to become pro-active in solving. Especially when I come from a long line of soldiers and have family currently serving our (my) country in this war.So yes I will be an asshole (in your opinion),toward a punk like you.

50

Everyone,

And here goes the debating culture…

Can’t you guys stay on an issue, without reverting to kindergarten style “I’m bigger than you!” and “you ultra-(insert political affiliation of choice) pussy”? Please - that would really help.

On the topic: As stated earlier, I don’t think the ends justify the means. Firstly, if you are supposedly defending certain values, you should not revert to breaking them, because then you become part of the problem you are trying to solve. Along the lines of “fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity…”. :slight_smile:

Secondly, it makes you incoherent in your argumentation: How can you support a certain view, when someone else just has to pull out an ever growing list of your own examples that speak against you? You can always choose to ignore outside opinion, but that will in the long run not help you with your own supporters either.

Makkun

51

[quote]vroom wrote:
Mindeffor,

What, are you Derek under another name or something? :wink:

Glad somebody finally sacked up and addressed the issue anyway.

If you don’t have the stomach for stuff like that, then it probably is best that you hide behind a key board with your pseudo intelectual musings.

Hmm, same issues with “intellectuals” as Derek. Nice spelling there Conan.

And by the way,I saw some of the pictures you posted in another thread.They definitely confirm that you are in fact testicularly challenged.Why dont you go hit some weights or something?

Hmm, similar personal attacks. Considering I’ve never seen the name before, can’t imagine why you’d “hate” me in advance unless you were already attacking me under another name.

Give me time buddy. If you looked at the pics then you know I’ve made very good progress. Maybe in a year or two I’ll have respectable size and poundages from my own point of view.

Anyhow, to talk about issues, if you’ve been following along you’ll know I’m not against military action or covert operations where needed. I simply disagree that we’ve got a free pass with respect to torture and abuse. In my opinion, it will do more harm then good as it will create more hatred.

Disagree all you want. You don’t have to be an asshole about it… or maybe you do?[/quote]

I don’t buy the style of arguement where you state that you agree in the opener,only to disagree in the next sentence. To clarify the terminology I’ll tell you this. Corporal interrogation is using physical and or psychological coersion tactics to obtain intelligence.Torture and abuse would be a bunch of guys beating the crap out of prisioners just to satisfy a sadistic urge. There lies your contradiction. If you don’t know the difference between corporal interrogation and torture,you are arguing outside of your realm. This is the part where I call you a sissy. You sissy.Bear in mind the screen name “mindeffer”.HAHAHAHAHAHA!

52

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
I am going to be testing into Mensa within the next month,with all the confidence in the world that I will pass with flying colors.[/quote]

You are kidding, right? Someone with an IQ that close to 200 hasn’t grasped simple typing rules, spelling and resorts to name calling and insults in his first post in a thread. Gee, I remember when threads used to actually go somewhere. You know, when there was more of a point than to make entire posts just to call someone names. That isn’t directed at just anything you have written “mindeffer” but these topics in general. I will be the first to admit that I will call someone a dumbass or a retarded son of a bitch at the drop of a hat but some of these posts made me flashback to the fifth grade.

53

you’re all a bunch of fucking babies. its totally awesome how this discussion (that I was enjoying reading) turned into a piss fest lacking any substance. SWEET! just like real politics! next, you guys could dig up out of context quotes from when you’re were younger, or try to reduce each others’ voting record into simplistic “with us or against us” type bullshit rhetoric (I’m not JUST criticizing ol’ you-know-who, I’m criticizing the whole bunch). or maybe zeb and vroom could start running advertisments against one another on the main page (“swift boat veterans for zeb” “republicans for vroom”). and the beautiful irony: I’ve wasted another post adding to the urine bath!

54

vroom:

Oh…then I have it all wrong regarding you?

Then you have not bashed President Bush? You are not a liberal? You have not insulted people in many of your posts? I’m either right or wrong on this point.

Hmm…are we to believe what we read day in and day out, or your most recent denial?

Hey…I think I will stick with the facts. You are a “hater!” In your case you not only attack President Bush and the US, when someone disagrees with your liberal agenda they are personally attacked, (as I just was in your most recent post).

I will give you this, you are an equal opportunity hater! Attacking another posters spelling is only a minor example of your lack of class and your run away ego. “Nice spelling there conan.” Of course you go on to call him an “asshole” as well. More of your internet tough guy antics…

Tell me vroom what sort of parents did you have growing up? Did they indulge young vrooms every whim? “give him another doughnut…he’s so cute.” Could you do no wrong in Mommy and Daddy’s eyes? I’m no Psychologist but I detect someone who may have been told he could do no wrong? Were you Mommy and Daddy’s little angle?

I challenge you to do this: Take a good look at all of the threads, every section of the forum. You would be hard pressed to find anyone as generally caustic as you are. And it certainly would be difficult to find someone who is as anti USA and ultra-liberal as you.
You hate when I point that out because the truth can hurt. However, instead of coming back with one of your typical ego driven rambling posts, why don’t you take me up on my idea and search the site.

When you are finished you might just see yourself in a different light. Not as the thoughtful liberal that you think you are, but the hateful US bashing, caustic, ego driven vroom the rest of us have come to know and not quite love.

Write back soon…:wink:

55

Zeb, zip it buddy. It’s over. You already blew it.

Try staying on topic and not ruining threads… people are complaining enough as is.

56

Vroom, BE CAREFUL! Zeb is mad as hell and he is not going to take it anymore!

57

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb, zip it buddy. It’s over. You already blew it.

Try staying on topic and not ruining threads… people are complaining enough as is.[/quote]

vroom:

Do you think insulting people and tearing down the USA is a good way to stay “on topic?” Never mind…you probably do.

58

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Vroom, BE CAREFUL! Zeb is mad as hell and he is not going to take it anymore![/quote]

Mad? I think you better take Jeffs advice on another thread. :wink:

59

C’mon now Zeb, whats with the interest you and jeffy have with my bowels? Do you guys have some kind of weird fetish?

60

Hey Brother Elk,

Just concerned about your emotional state.

I disagree with you on many (if not all issues) but I do want you to be well.

JeffR