An apology for Abu Ghraib

JD 430,

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Vroom,

I actually like it much better when you chime in with smartass one-line comments.
Far less painful than many of your “musing” type posts which tend to go no where.[/quote]

Perhaps Vroom is as speechless as I am when I read these posts. I am abhorred by the various attempts to justify these (luckily and hopefully isolated) incidents. The service(wo)men commiting them deserve their sentences as much as the torturers of the Saddam regime.

Fighting for a rightful cause (against terrorism) does not absolve anyone from the duty of following proper and humane procedure. Any deviance from this rules one out as one of the “good guys/girls”.

Makkun

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1103018283175.parker.gif

[quote]derek wrote:

Hey gonzalis. Are you Muslim?

[/quote]

yes indeed i am :slight_smile:
i have written topic titled ‘before 9/11 i was a muslim’

never jugde a book by its cover my friend,My younger brother is of a very light complextion, he weighs in at about 14 stone, he also has a skinhead looks pretty menacing where ever he goes, definatley looks right wing, gets all sorts of looks at the mosque.

i think once people look past the differences, we are all much the same, we all want peace and some kind of contentment.

sure abu ghraib was wrong, but you cant blame every body for it, there are still some countries using these methods today against political and social oppostions, and are still given the blessings of western governments.
at least at abu ghraib the story got out, under saddam, many took those stories to the grave.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Vroom,

I actually like it much better when you chime in with smartass one-line comments.
Far less painful than many of your “musing” type posts which tend to go no where.[/quote]

Oh yes!

Zebster, you know I can relate to your post… that’s how I feel when you stick to chin up posts!

JD430, have you ever beat confessions out of suspects? You’re a cop or former cop right? Just wondering in relation to the Abu Ghraib situation. You know, justifiying it if they are scumbags deservin of it.

Elk,

Let me set you straight.

Don’t put words in my mouth. I pride myself on getting people I lock up to shake my hand or at least thank me when they’re leaving (most people that is. Some of the true dregs I could care less about, but I would never abuse any of them).

See, this is what some of you left-leaning guys don’t get. Most of us don’t condone Abu Ghraib…we just think comparing that to Saddam’s torture chambers is so insanely absurd, it indicates mental illness. Its like comparing a mosquito bite to a severed artery.

I wasnt raised to act like those jackasses did, and most decent americans are with me on that. But guys like Makkun saying they deserve the same as Saddams tortures shows a completely screwed up moral compass that I suspect cant be fixed. I don’t care if you dislike the president or this war, but don’t distort events to fit your bias.

And what is the bottom line? The army is dealing with this very harshly. So what the hell are you complaining about?

Sorry, but these minor incidents are not going to get the president impeached…(which is your real purpose in making a giant mountain out of this anthill)

As far as the marine shooting that
terrorist goes, that is a different story and he did absolutely nothing wrong. Should not even be brought up again.

Go ahead…distort away.

Gonzalis, I hope you don’t think I was judging a book by it’s cover. I don’t think you were trying to say that.(happy Ramadan beginning December, 20th, right?) Anyway, thanks for the input. I always thought racism was custom-made for idiots, anyway. I think I have had or have now, friends of every persuasion imaginable. I agree, under the skin we all want the same things out of life. One of my (gay) friends once told me that I am the “whitest” guy he knows! He also told me I am the most “hetero” guy he knows as well! I am not trying to brag at all here but my past relationships consisted of a Puerto Rican girl, a Jewish girl, a Jamaican/Cape Verdian girl and two “caucasian” girls. I guess to me, knowing this allows others to more accurately judge me and my original post. I do not condone mistreatment of innocent victims. However, It’s not my place to judge the military or law enforcements’ methods of extracting information when the lives of valiant soldiers and/or innocent citizens are on the line. I don’t know what the hell taking humiliating pictures of prisoners has to do with extraction of info, though. I do know, however that I would rather have those photos taken of me rather than being smacked around or being sleep-deprived. All-in-all, if mis-treatment of prisoners keeps one of our soldiers alive, then so be it. If it’s just for “fun” then there should be punishment.

  OK, before I go ahead and say what I WOULD LIKE to say, I want to make this clear that I am not politically correct AT ALL! And also, if someone replies to this, I would appreciate it if this person avoided using smear words such as uneducated, ignorant, anti-American, or, the biggest smear word you can hit someone with: ANTI-SEMITIC! Actually, upon reading this reply, one should keep in mind that I AM a SEMITE, a middle easterner, a JEW! However, this does not stop me from speaking the truth and my true feelings on Israel, Jewish/Israeli behavior and politics, and the Jewish religion, which I actually do not follow AT ALL! 
   I understand some of the things that you have stated in your apologies. However, I still tend to think that most people are not seeing the big picture. I am in the middle of typing a paper so I do not have the time to respond or refer back to every apology but I will respond to the ones I have remembered somewhat. You say you are sorry that many of these Moslem "terrorists" feel that they will be blessed in some form or another upon killing themselves in a suicide bombing. Well, actually their suicide bombing has very little to do with their religion and more to do with their fighting back against Israeli oppression, considering they are not supported financially and militarily with M16s, tanks, and assorted bombs that we have supplied Israel with. They have resorted to fighting back in anyway that they can. I am assuming that if you are a man of conviction and were facing odds, you would fight in any manner that you could as well. 
Also, not every suicide bomber/terrorist is a fanatic, wild-eyed, lunatic mass murdering Moslem. Some of them are Christian or not religious at all! In other words, some are NOT Moslems! The first Palestinian female suicide bomber was Wafa Idris and she was not religious at all and not even considered to be a Moslem by her neighbors. She simply was sick and tired of seeing her fellow Palestinians lose eyes, legs, and LIVES and herself being injured by rubber bullets at the hands of Israeli soldiers while she was on VOLUNTEER ambulance duty to help her injured people. Do I think what she did was noble? HELL'S NO! After all, she is killing MY people, my fellow Jews! However, can I understand human behavior? YES! 
 What us comfy Americans do not seem to realize as we shop in our malls, watch television, drink beers, and endlessly consume useless junk is that there are people in this world who care more about the latest ball game scores or celebrity gossip! There are peole who will stand up for their people at all costs and feel responsible when one of their fellow people is harmed or humiliated. This is what many of my people did in various hopeless uprisings during WW2, such as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Yes, this is very foreign to the feminized wimps that we have as male friends these days, the ones with their balls in a jar owned by their domineering girlfriends or wifes!
   Folks, if you want to talk about terrorism or random acts of fanatic violence, why don't you take a look at Israel, a country headed by a war criminal! Actually, all Israeli leaders have been war criminals! Why don't you look at the war crimes committed by Ariel Sharon and his goon squads while they killed thousands of Lebanese children and women in the Shattilah and Sabra refugee camps during their invasion of Lebanon. Why don't you look at how Ehud Barak and his henchmen killed POET Edawn Kamal and his family in their sleep for writing certain anti-Israeli POEMS?! Pretty fair, right? What about when Lebanese Christian Militia leader Eli Hobika was suddenly assassinated a few days before he was going to testify against Ariel Sharon in a war crimes trial in Belgium? Coincidence? I think not! I can go on and on about about Israel and what I dislike about that country's politics (NOT the people, MY people). Actually, I must add something, if we are concerned about finding "WMDs" in the Middle East, why does no one raise the question of why Israel has been able to develop its arsenal of biological and chemical weapons? If we are concerned about female rights, then why does no one in the USA pay attention to the flourishing sex slave trade in Israel? Folks, the next time you think of Middle Eastern corruption and why we have so much hostility from the Arab world, take a look at the country you support through tax dollars. Maybe then you will realize just why we were attacked on September 11th. And as a T-man, I would assume you can speak with me while completely avoiding bullshit lines such as the following: "they hate our freedom", "they are jealous", "they are doing it for Jihad", "their religion teaches them to do that", "they dislike our culture", and so on! Yes, they dislike our culture. Actually, any foreign patriotic or religious masculine male is a bit disgusted when they see our American men acting like females, feminized wimps that they are, and seeing the vulgarity that American culture has embraced (I tend to like it a bit, haha, can't live without some porno watching). BUT, this does not cause them to fly planes into buildings. THINK ABOUT IT, the next time you ask yourself WHY they do it?
 Well, these are just some of my random rants. I think my head is fried from so much studying and school work. I need to get out, haha! I will be adding more to this post later tonight. These are just random thoughts. By the way guys, I am actually in the middle of typing a long report on BCAAs for an Advanced Nutrition and Metabolism class. It is really amazing stuff! I do not know if this has been written about here on T-mag before, but did you guys also know that a few studies showed that BCAAs aided in the immune response and cut down on the incidence of infectious symptoms in ultra endurance athletes. I also read a very recent study that showed that BCAAs increased the phosporylation of 70 kDa S6 protein kinase and in turn enhancing muscle mass accumulation?

JD,

I didn’t put words in your mouth, I asked you a question. And as far as us left leaning guys go, this is what I think you right leaning guys don’t get. You keep using the Saddam was a monster who used torture and mass killings which justified his ouster. If these are justifications what should our feelings as Americans be when our country condones torture and mass killings such as the covert support that put Augustine Pinochet in power in the 70s? As well as many other cold blooded bastards or causes we have supported.

I am proud to be an American, since I was born and raised here, it stands to reason. Just as I would be proud to be Japanese if I was born and raised there.
That being said I don’t buy into the America is like superman completely benevolent and just. We have condoned and trained some of the worst violators of human rights around. So, I think you’re just as screwballed and wrong when you keep bringing that argument up!

As far as the Marine goes, I have never voiced one opinion on that. I was not there and if I was, I might have done the same thing. There you go lumping everyone in the same boat “If they say something bad about the Marine, they must be liberal democrats,”. Also, I never read anything from Makkun suggesting what you said he did. He seems to be someone who views things pretty realistically!

JD430

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Elk,

Let me set you straight.

Don’t put words in my mouth. …[/quote]

Then don’t do it yourself:[quote]

I wasnt raised to act like those jackasses did, and most decent americans are with me on that. But guys like Makkun saying they deserve the same as Saddams tortures shows a completely screwed up moral compass that I suspect cant be fixed. I don’t care if you dislike the president or this war, but don’t distort events to fit your bias.[/quote]

Wow, those were a lot of your words in my mouth… But, to make my point clear once more: The torturers at Abu Ghraib deserve what anyone deserves who hurts a prisoner - a proper trial. What is so wrong with that?[quote]

And what is the bottom line? The army is dealing with this very harshly. So what the hell are you complaining about?[/quote]

Only about people who try to minimise these acts or play them down as minor - they are not. This is about accepting responsibility - support your soldiers, I guess that is a good thing, but also criticise them when they do wrong.[quote]

Sorry, but these minor incidents are not going to get the president impeached…(which is your real purpose in making a giant mountain out of this anthill)[/quote]

You prove my point.

[quote]As far as the marine shooting that
terrorist goes, that is a different story and he did absolutely nothing wrong. Should not even be brought up again.[/quote]

I guess that is for the army authorities to decide about. Check out my comments on the “Save our Marine” thread.[quote]

Go ahead…distort away.[/quote]

Next time perhaps, if it makes you happy. :wink:

Makkun

[quote]RepubCarrier wrote:
chris_666 wrote:
an old one:

Why do American wars always come in twos?

The first one creates terrorists and the second one does too.

was that supposed to make sense?[/quote]

Hi RepubCarrier,
you are right. It’s a braindead joke (It was getting late).

The points is, even for the US with all their military power it is not a good thing to piss off everyone. You cannot fight suicide terrorists with daisy cutters.

So you should not be sorry for Abu Ghraib but rather mad as hell at those responsible for this mess.

Elk,

Couple things:

I did not use the “Saddam is a monster” claim to defend his ouster. Instead, I see his support for terror as the primary justification for his demise…although I will give you the fact that the whole engagement was not framed this way. It should have been.

We have supported despots in the past. International relations is a dirty business for sure. I never said the U.S. was superman, but I feel many don’t give credit to the U.S. where it is due. Our system of government represents the height of human freedom…no place else has gotten it as right as we have so far. Don’t discount the amount of good we have done in the world. We have been more than generous with our wealth and our blood has secured freedom for many peoples. My grandfather never forgot what it felt like when he walked into a concentration camp as a liberating GI. Some of you guys should not forget this either. Our warriors, in most cases, represent a height of morality unheard of in human history. Go to South America and see how the police treat you. Or go to Iraq and see how an “insurgent” treats you.

Lastly, my comment on the marine wasn’t meant to challenge anything you said. It was more of a general statement, in case there was any question where I stood(and I do believe Makkun has brought it up repeatedly).

Yeah, I know why you guys like short one line quips…

God forbid anybody actually try to get you to notice and think about the complexities involved in an issue.

I guess maybe you prefer having your opinion handed to you – and I don’t really try to do that (regardless of what Zeb tries to find in my posts).

Okay, time for some rambling thoughts that aren’t a one line joke…

You know what this issue boils down to, as do many others we discuss? It’s about whether or not the ends justify the means.

You’ve heard of this I assume? The age old question about whether you should be able to commit horrendous acts because you have a noble goal.

As soon as you say yes, you are heading down the same road used to justify the actions of terrorists, that you despise so much. If the ends truly justify the means, there is no end point. There is no action which is too heinous to allow.

If you travel that road, you are in danger of becoming what you are fighting against.

I can already hear the garbage responses, misinterpretations and recycled insults and attacks. I’m not comparing our actions to Saddams actions or anything like that.

If you get hot and bothered by these thoughts, just answer this one question…

Do the ends justify the means?

[… edited because one of these days I’ll learn to type …]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Yeah, I know why you guys like short one line quips…

You know what this issue boils down to, as do many others we discuss? It’s about whether or not the ends justify the means.

You’ve heard of this I assume? The age old question about whether you should be able to commit horrendous acts because you have a noble goal.

As soon as you say yes, you are heading down the same road used to justify the actions of terrorists, that you despise so much. If the ends truly justify the means, there is no end point. There is no action which is too heinous to allow.

If you travel that road, you are in danger of becoming what you are fighting against.[/quote]

I could not agree more.

Unfortunately this is a common misconception.

[quote]If you get hot and bothered by these thoughts, just answer this one question…

Do the ends justify the means?[/quote]

Nope. Not if you care for the values represented in our various constitutions , regulations and conventions.

Makkun

LOL…the great vroom has spoken! He has told us exactly what the debate is about, and also how to respond. (Shaking my head), The guys ego is totally out of proportion to his abilities. (That’s not an insult vroom you would have to have an IQ of about 200 to match the ego. Hmm, then again it could be an EQ problem…).

Okay…now for the rest of you, you heard the man: “JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.”

Zeig heil! vroom you are seriously losing it!

Thanks for the laugh and also for not going off on a liberal rant, as usual.

Zeb,

I know you are still smarting from being called a whacko and this is your attempt to strike back, but really, I’m curious, do the ends justify the means or not?

Like everyone else posting I have an opinion about these issues and write about them. As with everyone else, you don’t have to agree. If you have something important to say, invalidating my point, then by all means please say it.

However, Zebenstein, you’ve once again managed to sidestep the ISSUES and focus on me. Why do you insist on making this so personal when there are issues to discuss? Attacking me instead of the issue is just a diversion. It’s weak. It’s pathetic.

Maybe you have some type of insane agenda against people you feel have a liberal viewpoint? I don’t know. Whatever it is, you are making a fool out of yourself. Feel free to continue doing so.

Alternately, feel free to address the issues raised, if you even know how. The question of whether the ends justifies the means is an age old question. Perhaps some folks who are making claims that sound like the ends justify the means, to them, haven’t realized that is what they are saying?

I don’t know… the issue seems important to me, though I doubt you even see it.

vroom:

Oh my…look at all that name calling. Well vroom if it makes you feel better go ahead. After all, it’s not like anyone takes you seriously around here…(ouch).

I am very cognizant of the issues of the day. I also see your “issues” vroom, and they are many! Not the least of which is your liberal agenda.

Just about every post you have written on the political thread espouses some sort of ultra-liberal belief. You sometimes masquerade as someone attempting to “further the discussion.” (I’m assuming by this you think “the end justifies the means.”) But…alas with you it’s only a matter of time before you begin trashing America and pushing your ultra-liberal agenda. Gets old pal…gets mighty old.

got that right in a general sense

Gee Zeb, another post based completely on your interpretation of me. Boy, am I surprised.

Have any thoughts on the issue? Any at all?

The question is, do you think the ends justify the means? It is perfectly salient to the original point of this thread and really has nothing to do with liberal versus conservative party politics.

Step out on a limb, state an opinion on an issue. Alternately, go on about your one man crusade to “discredit” everything I say because I disagree with you, its your choice.

So what if it makes you look like a whacko.

Wow Vroom, Zebster has really got a hard on for you! He is devoting a lot of energy trying to discredit you. He practically stalks you on the forum. You must have really gotten under his skin. BTW, keep up the good posts!

Back to the issue at hand…

You guys can verbally slap each other around in PM’s, I could care less. Matter of fact, it’s boring.

I posted on this awhile ago in the “Iraqi Prisoners” thread, and I still feel the same way. It’s an incident that occurred, and it’s bad, and there isn’t much justification for it, but it shouldn’t be a representation of what we’re doing over there. And when it comes to war, human rights takes a back seat, hell human rights might often ride in the trunk. We as a nation have had blemishes like this in our history since it’s very beginning and I’m sure will continue to do so. Is the incident justified? No. Was A-Gharib bad? Yes. Should we be over it already? Damn right. It’s counterproductive to keep drumming this up, let the courts make their decisions. Global opinion be damned.

Course my rant in the aforementioned thread was much more inflammitory. I’m trying not to swear as much, Holidays and all.

I think deep down, most of you who are upset are looking for things to be upset about.

Merry Christmas.

B.