Amerika

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sic wrote:
What would the medical necessity be for a teenager or young adult?

First, why are we even discussing use by teenagers? Why would there need to be a “medical necessity”? Is there a “medical necessity” for breast implants?

One of the largest problems when it comes to doctors and their freedom to prescribe is this strange idea that the only approved use for these drugs is illness or disease. Why are we still only treating diseases in this country and not focusing on also increasing the quality of life of HEALTHY individuals?
[/quote]

I brought up teenagers because all of the news stories and add campaigns against steriods seem to infer that teens are in danger of destroying their lives via steriods. They don’t focus on college kids or even middle aged men, it’s all about high school steriod usage. Which I think is crap because the average high school student is in more “danger” of an alcohol related death or an accidental OTC drug overdose.

It pisses me off that the government is targeting steriods specifically when the users make up such a tiny demographic. There are much more important things that we could be focusing on, like alcohol abuse.

Also, you can’t really compare breast implants to steriods. Both are foreign objects voluntarily being put into your body, but implants don’t have the ability to alter your hormonal balance. Although… implants are often used to increase self esteem. Wouldn’t a healthier, more muscular physique do the same thing for a guy?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
sic wrote:
What would the medical necessity be for a teenager or young adult?

First, why are we even discussing use by teenagers? Why would there need to be a “medical necessity”? Is there a “medical necessity” for breast implants?

One of the largest problems when it comes to doctors and their freedom to prescribe is this strange idea that the only approved use for these drugs is illness or disease. Why are we still only treating diseases in this country and not focusing on also increasing the quality of life of HEALTHY individuals?

[/quote]

There realy isn’t much money in keeping people healthy.

How many drugs do healthy people use?

Now chronic conditions- Thats where the money is. You can suppress and control symptoms until the day someone dies, which can be a realy long time.

On the other hand, there has been a big surge in health and wellness centers that are affiliated with local hospitals here in Pittsburgh.
Heck, some docs are even prescribing exercise and sound dietary practices for people with chronic illness.

I bet if they could rectify some of the deficiencies in endocrine function, they would make some progress. What would it take to elevate metabolism, increase protien sysnthesis, and stimulate deteriorating organ function and regeneration?

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
There realy isn’t much money in keeping people healthy.

How many drugs do healthy people use?

Now chronic conditions- Thats where the money is. You can suppress and control symptoms until the day someone dies, which can be a realy long time.
[/quote]

What part do the insurance companies play in the legislature, though? I’ll agree that it’s beneficial to big pharma to keep sick people just sick enough, but there’s obviously a difference of interests there with big insura. I’m sure they think there’s a lot of money in keeping people healthy.

[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
There realy isn’t much money in keeping people healthy.

How many drugs do healthy people use?

Now chronic conditions- Thats where the money is. You can suppress and control symptoms until the day someone dies, which can be a realy long time.

What part do the insurance companies play in the legislature, though? I’ll agree that it’s beneficial to big pharma to keep sick people just sick enough, but there’s obviously a difference of interests there with big insura. I’m sure they think there’s a lot of money in keeping people healthy.

[/quote]

Are we talking life insurance or medical insurance?

It has very little to do with legislation and a lot more to do with a broad strategy of treatment that maintains a quantity of life without regard for the quality.

Steriods and hgh are allready produced and prescribed legaly, it’s just not very popular.

On insurance- Do you see a value in something that you don’t use very much? I don’t. Do you want to pay for expanded coverage that includes more prescription coverage and increased number and type of doctor visits if you don’t use prescriptions or frequently visit a multitude of doctors?
I don’t. I doubt most other people would either.

Also, knowing that healthy people cost less to care for, insurance companies do take an interest in your health. The previously mentioned health and wellness centers are part of most premium plans.(see link)

I know that these statements seem incongruous, but think about it- If you don’t care about your health and just want to pop pills till you die, you’re covered. You’ll just pay more.
If you are concerened with your health and want to play an active role in it, your covered too. You’ll just have to pay more, for a place like this-
http://www.healthtrax.com/club/scripts/public/public.asp?NS=PUBLIC

I like the latter more than the former, but since I have a choice, I’ll choose to be mindfull and active in my own health for free.

[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:
It’s starting to feel that way over here - Australia feels like a very controlled society. There are those who support and defend the status quo, those who rebel against it, those who are against it but don’t feel there is much they can do about it, and those who are too comfortable and apathetic to do anything.

Not starting a fight here, but which parts of Aussie society make you feel controlled? There is not a more free country in the Western world.

Guys live off the Government here their entire lives. A guy I work with gets around $400 on the dole per fortnight and so does his Mrs . And they earn the max amount possible at a part time job which is around $150 a week. They live a truly stress free and easy life. If they have kids, the Government gives them a $5000 handshake and then ups the weekly dole payments.

I’ve never been to a country on earth where this kind of lazyness is encouraged. You can work if you want, if you don’t the Government will make sure you don’t live in discomfort. That’s freedom.

[/quote]

Nobody lives off the government, they live off the countries taxpayers.

You seem to have a strange definition of freedom.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Nobody lives off the government, they live off the countries taxpayers.

You seem to have a strange definition of freedom.
[/quote]

Let’s split some hairs shall we?

You live a free life in Australia. Nobody forces you to do anything that you don’t want. Work is easy to find and the Government is very fair. That’s freedom to me.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I honestly think it has to do with where you live or grew up. I doubt most people in Houston think it is difficult for a kid to find a source for weed. That same kid would have a harder time getting alcohol even though alcohol kills more people and causes more problems in society.

I don’t understand why so many still don’t see that the restrictions and laws happen to be the largest part of the problem. They create the black market.[/quote]

It’s pretty easy for a kid to get alcohol. Most kids parents have it around the house. Not everyone keeps tabs on how much they’ve got. It’s easy enough to get too.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
It has very little to do with legislation and a lot more to do with a broad strategy of treatment that maintains a quantity of life without regard for the quality.

Steriods and hgh are allready produced and prescribed legaly, it’s just not very popular.

On insurance- Do you see a value in something that you don’t use very much? I don’t. Do you want to pay for expanded coverage that includes more prescription coverage and increased number and type of doctor visits if you don’t use prescriptions or frequently visit a multitude of doctors?
I don’t. I doubt most other people would either.

Also, knowing that healthy people cost less to care for, insurance companies do take an interest in your health. The previously mentioned health and wellness centers are part of most premium plans.(see link)

I know that these statements seem incongruous, but think about it- If you don’t care about your health and just want to pop pills till you die, you’re covered. You’ll just pay more.
If you are concerened with your health and want to play an active role in it, your covered too. You’ll just have to pay more, for a place like this-

I like the latter more than the former, but since I have a choice, I’ll choose to be mindfull and active in my own health for free.

[/quote]

No offense, but our health care system sucks ass. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say. There are millions of Americans who are NOT covered by insurance. Hell, I just left the military (where we had full coverage) and am finding it hard to get coverage simply because of my body weight…AND I’M HEALTHY. If anything needs a complete overhaul, it is the ridiculous way we currently do business and the amount of power we have given to insurance companies.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

I believe there are legal restrictions on the reasons that steroids can be prescribed. Loosen those restrictions and there will be a sports medicine doctor in every town that would write prescriptions and do blood tests. It would be as simple as getting birth control pills or valium. Prices would be reasonable.

If they were sold OTC then they would easily end up in kids hands and kids would use them. There are plenty of unscrupulous adults that would distribute them. [/quote]

You raise an excellent point here bringing up birth control pills, which are, after all, steroids. If it is legal for a doctor to prescribe gynecogenic, catabolic steroids (whose adverse side effects are well-documented) for a 16-year-old girl, then it should be legal for the same doctor to prescribe androgenic and anabolic steroids for a 26-year-old man. Equal treatment under the law, and all.

[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Nobody lives off the government, they live off the countries taxpayers.

You seem to have a strange definition of freedom.

Let’s split some hairs shall we?

You live a free life in Australia. Nobody forces you to do anything that you don’t want. Work is easy to find and the Government is very fair. That’s freedom to me. [/quote]

Yes, I agree that we live a free life relative to most countries in the world. I just found it strange that your main justification seemed to be the ease with which people are able to get the dole.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Steroids don’t fit into any of your tiers. It is non-addictive, non-habit forming, non-narcotic, not mind altering, poses no threat to society.

Where do you put them on your list?[/quote]

Number 2. I think there’s more potential for trouble with steroids than with pot and stuff like that. But if you know what you’re doing, everything should be fine.

I wish I had a good definition. In any case, what I said seemed valid at an intuitive level, but I don’t claim I have all the answers checked and ready.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
It has very little to do with legislation and a lot more to do with a broad strategy of treatment that maintains a quantity of life without regard for the quality.

Steriods and hgh are allready produced and prescribed legaly, it’s just not very popular.

On insurance- Do you see a value in something that you don’t use very much? I don’t. Do you want to pay for expanded coverage that includes more prescription coverage and increased number and type of doctor visits if you don’t use prescriptions or frequently visit a multitude of doctors?
I don’t. I doubt most other people would either.

Also, knowing that healthy people cost less to care for, insurance companies do take an interest in your health. The previously mentioned health and wellness centers are part of most premium plans.(see link)

I know that these statements seem incongruous, but think about it- If you don’t care about your health and just want to pop pills till you die, you’re covered. You’ll just pay more.
If you are concerened with your health and want to play an active role in it, your covered too. You’ll just have to pay more, for a place like this-

I like the latter more than the former, but since I have a choice, I’ll choose to be mindfull and active in my own health for free.

No offense, but our health care system sucks ass. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say. There are millions of Americans who are NOT covered by insurance. Hell, I just left the military (where we had full coverage) and am finding it hard to get coverage simply because of my body weight…AND I’M HEALTHY. If anything needs a complete overhaul, it is the ridiculous way we currently do business and the amount of power we have given to insurance companies.[/quote]

The majority of that was in response to flava daves questions but, I agree with you on that 100%. I would also add that its percieved value is much greater than its actual value, which is a hell of a lot less than it costs.

Suggest to someone that they realy don’t need it and they will look at you like you have three heads though.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
What part do the insurance companies play in the legislature, though? I’ll agree that it’s beneficial to big pharma to keep sick people just sick enough, but there’s obviously a difference of interests there with big insura. I’m sure they think there’s a lot of money in keeping people healthy.

Are we talking life insurance or medical insurance?[/quote]

It doesn’t matter. The truth is that I just wanted to say the phrase big insura.

offtopic

[quote]De sleeplijn wrote:
Not starting a fight here, but which parts of Aussie society make you feel controlled? There is not a more free country in the Western world.
[/quote]

Hmm…it’s just the coercive, compulsory nature of the government here. Do as they say, or get fined or penalized. Spend more than 4 minutes in the shower? You get fined. Fail to vote? You get fined. There is a whole list of offences building up that carry penalties these days. I can’t rattle them ALL off, but the things we are not allowed to do is building up. Of course there are plenty of reasons of justifying these things in the name of the public good.

But if, for example, the government didn’t waste $150,000 per every new police car put on the road (which they replace every 6 months JUST to waste money in order to use up all their budget) by keeping their current police cars running for longer, they could use the money to fix the water problem, for example.

There are speed cameras everywhere, which are more revenue raisers than anything else. Every day people lose their licences due to demerit points like dead flies dropping off a wall.

How about the graphic ad campaigns focusing on death and destruction the government uses all the time “fatal 4, every K over is a killer”, and all those drug and alcohol ads showing people having accidents or overdose and dying? It’s a propaganda tool to instill fear into the populace and thus compliance.

In the nightclubs there is a compulsory 3am lockout/curfew. If you step outside of a premises after 3am, even just for a smoke, the bouncer or doorman is legally required to lock you out of the club and you are not allowed back inside. (and HE gets a fine if he lets you back in!)

Police with sniffer dogs randomly raid clubs and parties on a regular basis and body search people for drugs! I think that’s a violation of basic human rights. These are free citizens on private property or licensed premises and they have to get pawed by a dog and then undergo a forced body search without warrant.

I don’t know, I just get the feeling that you can’t cough, sneeze or fart the wrong way these days without breaking some new legislation.

[quote]Guys live off the Government here their entire lives. A guy I work with gets around $400 on the dole per fortnight and so does his Mrs . And they earn the max amount possible at a part time job which is around $150 a week. They live a truly stress free and easy life. If they have kids, the Government gives them a $5000 handshake and then ups the weekly dole payments.
[/quote]

Personally I wouldn’t equate getting the dole to freedom and a stress-free life. Most “dole bludgers” as they are called here, are unskilled, unmotivated, have no direction in life, find it hard to find or keep a job, and therefore are enslaved to the handout system they rely upon. Fortnightly visits to Centrelink to hand in their forms, and the money’s in the bank the next day. But have you ever tried living on, say, $300 a fortnight? That doesn’t even cover RENT for a house these days, which is averaging about $360 a week ($720 a fortnight). Australia is an expensive place to live and it’s not that easy to make ends meet, unless you are in the higher income bracket. As an American expatriate, you haven’t really seen or lived it from the inside, in the lower class “ghetto” areas. It may LOOK and sound easy, but it’s not as easy or stress free as it seems. Say we went the American way and didn’t give support our citizens with taxpayer money - most would not survive. We have whole families moving into TENTS these days because they are out of a home, even with government income support.

The good things about the system here are free medical care, plus the government pays for your university or college education until you have a career and are earning enough to pay it back.

/offtopic

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sic wrote:
What would the medical necessity be for a teenager or young adult?

First, why are we even discussing use by teenagers? Why would there need to be a “medical necessity”? Is there a “medical necessity” for breast implants?

One of the largest problems when it comes to doctors and their freedom to prescribe is this strange idea that the only approved use for these drugs is illness or disease. Why are we still only treating diseases in this country and not focusing on also increasing the quality of life of HEALTHY individuals?
[/quote]

That’s what is ridiculous - the dominant paradigm in medicine is that anything to do with ENHANCEMENT of an individual is seen as not necessary.

I think that is precisely the case.

[quote]
Steroids-bad
Trans fat, sugar, corn syrup, cigarettes- ok

There’s absolutely no logic in that if health is a genuine concern.[/quote]

Word!

And all this happened within how many years of the gun registration and confiscation programs?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Health is rarely a concern; profit is. Who do you stand to make more money off of: a healthy, confident person or an insecure, fat, sickly person?

Consider how much fast food companies make, and the “weight loss” market, not to mention healthcare, OTC medicine, and everything else that is much easier to sell to the insecure (everything).

As the 30 - 45 market ages, you will see a much higher demand for life extension protocols. This means more hgh, more test, more of what many of us are already using.

This is the generation that will not die. Men will want to look as young and verile as they possibly can. You are already seeing that with Sly, and others that have found the fountain of youth that is hgh.

Doctors will want to cash in on this, and if they can get big pharma to get in the FDA’s ear, you will see our land once again flowing with the milk and honey that is AAS.

Just be patient, and find a decent domestic source. [/quote]

What do you think the criteria should be for prescription? I think candidates should be based on age, psychological fitness, likely commitment & discipline, years training and personal history/reasons for need or want of AAS.

I see this as a whole new specialist field that could emerge if AAS became legally available to men by prescription for health / muscular & strength enhancement / life extension. What would it be called? Androgenology ?(lame, but just an example)

It would be very profitable and lucrative - we could have new specialist clinics popping up everywhere.

I don’t think this field is for any GP, however. Most of the ones I’ve talked to know dick all about steroids. If a GP wanted to become qualified to prescribe and administer AAS, I think it should take a few months study and training in order to obtain a specialist license.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote: a lot of illusion-shattering details about the state of liberty in Australia.

And all this happened within how many years of the gun registration and confiscation programs?[/quote]

Well, if my memory serves me correctly, those came in place around 1996. So approximately 12 years…

Most Australians would find it extremely shocking that you could walk into a sporting goods section of a common DEPARTMENT STORE in the USA and be able to buy a firearm!

[quote]Professor X wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
It has very little to do with legislation and a lot more to do with a broad strategy of treatment that maintains a quantity of life without regard for the quality.

Steriods and hgh are allready produced and prescribed legaly, it’s just not very popular.

On insurance- Do you see a value in something that you don’t use very much? I don’t. Do you want to pay for expanded coverage that includes more prescription coverage and increased number and type of doctor visits if you don’t use prescriptions or frequently visit a multitude of doctors?
I don’t. I doubt most other people would either.

Also, knowing that healthy people cost less to care for, insurance companies do take an interest in your health. The previously mentioned health and wellness centers are part of most premium plans.(see link)

I know that these statements seem incongruous, but think about it- If you don’t care about your health and just want to pop pills till you die, you’re covered. You’ll just pay more.
If you are concerened with your health and want to play an active role in it, your covered too. You’ll just have to pay more, for a place like this-

I like the latter more than the former, but since I have a choice, I’ll choose to be mindfull and active in my own health for free.

No offense, but our health care system sucks ass. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say. There are millions of Americans who are NOT covered by insurance. Hell, I just left the military (where we had full coverage) and am finding it hard to get coverage simply because of my body weight…AND I’M HEALTHY. If anything needs a complete overhaul, it is the ridiculous way we currently do business and the amount of power we have given to insurance companies.[/quote]

I( seriously can’t believe you can’t get some health coverage due to your weight. I’m 5’7" and 205 lbs. When I was single I got a high deductible policy with a 2500 $ deductible. I kept raising the deductible to keep my premium low ( less than 100$ a month) to eventually 5000$.why pay premium when you don’t use the insurance? This was in 2006 btw.

Now I’m covered by my wife. So it’s not an issue anymore. Look into insurance from a state association if you belong to one, the chamber of commerce, or go to a private broker and look for a similiar policy as me. I’d rather pay the doctor than the insurance company personally.