Alienating Our Military

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
As a former Marine I am a “born-again” pacifist. War is mostly un-necessary.

Sounds like a nice little sentiment but it is all BS. Mankind has been at war since before the dawn of history. Even the “Ice Man” was found to be killed by an arrow.

War, poverty etc will always be with us.

This does not mean war is always the solution but you seem to have eliminated it as a possible solution thereby eliminating the chance you can think clearly on the subject.
[/quote]

This is the wrong idea. War has to be decided on. Man can just decide not to war and there would be no wars. Tread lightly but carry a big stick lest we tempt human nature.

82

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
As a former Marine I am a “born-again” pacifist. War is mostly un-necessary.

Sounds like a nice little sentiment but it is all BS. Mankind has been at war since before the dawn of history. Even the “Ice Man” was found to be killed by an arrow.

War, poverty etc will always be with us.

This does not mean war is always the solution but you seem to have eliminated it as a possible solution thereby eliminating the chance you can think clearly on the subject.

This is the wrong idea. War has to be decided on. Man can just decide not to war and there would be no wars. Tread lightly but carry a big stick lest we tempt human nature.[/quote]

Understood but only one side has to make the decision. When Iran decided to invade our embassy and fund terrorism and oppose American interests it decided it was at war against the US. We cannot have peace while they wage war against us unless we cave in to their demands. Doesn’t make much sense to me to do that.

83

[quote]JeffR wrote:

liftus, forgive me, I don’t believe you. Let’s begin.

First of all, the heart/brain commentary was cute. A little trite for my taste, but, cute.

Now, if you had a family member killed, that would override your “pacifist” tendency. It’s like the born again christian who has their car stolen. They use foul language.

Second, you would want to pull this weed out at the root. Your commentary is like saying, “Well, I’ve got liver cancer, but, I only want to remove the metastastic lesion to the brain. Leave the liver cancer alone.” Further, “Doc, I refuse to stop drinking (refuse to cut off sponsors).”

“Doc, just stick with the brain and I deserve the rest.”

It’s nonsense and I think you know it. If you truly suscribe to the “Afghanistan only” camp, then you are breathtakingly myopic. You do know that al qaeda operates globally? Further, you do realize they aren’t the only threat to the U.S. and they GET THEIR ARMS/MONEY SOMEWHERE?

Finally, if you are a former marine who is now a “pacifist,” you are a perfect example why many of us were worried about voting for john kerry. Some guys who have seen too much blood, refuse to ever engage in it again. That isn’t a criticism. However, our enemies can figure this out and use it to our advantage. There is no deterrance. See his weapons systems voting/Gulf War I vote.

In a dangerous world, where brutual dictators often only understand the sword, we need someone who would at least CONSIDER using force.

JeffR
[/quote]

Live by the sword, die by the sword. No thank you. I’m glad you think you know or understand my moral philosphy but please give it up. I will never lift a finger to kill anyone, ever! You talk exactly like someone who has never been anywhere or seen anything of the real world. You think everything is solved with bullets and missles.

You don’t think about the human cost–not just the cost of Americans but the cost to humans. Three thousand civilians were killed on 9/11; over three thousand US military members have died in Iraq; three-hundred-thousand Iraqi civilians have lost their lives, limbs, and or health. This war will and has not accomplished anything of worth nor will it ammend the wrongs commited against us.

84

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
As a former Marine I am a “born-again” pacifist. War is mostly un-necessary.

Sounds like a nice little sentiment but it is all BS. Mankind has been at war since before the dawn of history. Even the “Ice Man” was found to be killed by an arrow.

War, poverty etc will always be with us.

This does not mean war is always the solution but you seem to have eliminated it as a possible solution thereby eliminating the chance you can think clearly on the subject.

This is the wrong idea. War has to be decided on. Man can just decide not to war and there would be no wars. Tread lightly but carry a big stick lest we tempt human nature.

Understood but only one side has to make the decision. When Iran decided to invade our embassy and fund terrorism and oppose American interests it decided it was at war against the US. We cannot have peace while they wage war against us unless we cave in to their demands. Doesn’t make much sense to me to do that.

[/quote]

You are mistaking warring with policing. War is the act of commiting troops for long term tactical purposes against nations. We should still be able to capture crimminals but we do not need nor should we deply entire divisions of troops for this kind of activity. Do not mistake keeping something secure with open declarations against a nation. Security will always need to be a priority. I think it is wrong for this country to go into another country and overthrow a government–especially with other means available.

85

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
BH6 wrote:
I have gotten into this argument so late that I don’t know if I can contribute much.
I haven’t felt like I have anything in common with regular American society in about 15 years. I have been a Marine since I was 18 years old. The civilian world seems so foreign to me.

I can’t relate to it at all and I can’t imagine anything more boring than living a life where I have only myself and my family to worry about with no higher purpose.

When I eventually get out of the military, I am going to grow my hair and my beard out, I’ve always wanted to do that. Not long hippie hair, but well styled long hair. Long hair has become a bit of an obsession lately, I see dudes with long hair and I tell my wife “That guy has great hair”.

She just rolls her eyes, but I’m going to grow a sweet mullet. I liked that Irish actor’s hair in Miami Vice, it has to be pretty cool having hair so long you can tie it back.
So I have that going for me.

One of my teammates grew out his hair and beard as soon as he left the Marines. He is back to short hair and clean cut.[/quote]

I still carry a close cut but grew a beard. I hate shaving everyday. I haven’t had a high-n-tight cut in many years.

86

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Live by the sword, die by the sword. No thank you. I’m glad you think you know or understand my moral philosphy but please give it up. I will never lift a finger to kill anyone, ever! You talk exactly like someone who has never been anywhere or seen anything of the real world. You think everything is solved with bullets and missles.

You don’t think about the human cost–not just the cost of Americans but the cost to humans. Three thousand civilians were killed on 9/11; over three thousand US military members have died in Iraq; three-hundred-thousand Iraqi civilians have lost their lives, limbs, and or health. This war will and has not accomplished anything of worth nor will it ammend the wrongs commited against us.[/quote]

Lift,

What is your soultion to really bad people who really want to kill you and your family? Your message of international peace is wonderful, however there are some folks out there who disagree and are actively seeking ways to kill us (you, me, our children…) They don’t believe in peace. What do you say to them? Should we just stand by and let them continue to plot and bomb and kill us?

Based on what you have said in your posts, I don’t really believe you were a Marine. Or if you were I bet you were kicked out.

87

[quote]PGJ wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Live by the sword, die by the sword. No thank you. I’m glad you think you know or understand my moral philosphy but please give it up. I will never lift a finger to kill anyone, ever! You talk exactly like someone who has never been anywhere or seen anything of the real world. You think everything is solved with bullets and missles.

You don’t think about the human cost–not just the cost of Americans but the cost to humans. Three thousand civilians were killed on 9/11; over three thousand US military members have died in Iraq; three-hundred-thousand Iraqi civilians have lost their lives, limbs, and or health. This war will and has not accomplished anything of worth nor will it ammend the wrongs commited against us.

Lift,

What is your soultion to really bad people who really want to kill you and your family? Your message of international peace is wonderful, however there are some folks out there who disagree and are actively seeking ways to kill us (you, me, our children…) They don’t believe in peace. What do you say to them? Should we just stand by and let them continue to plot and bomb and kill us?

Based on what you have said in your posts, I don’t really believe you were a Marine. Or if you were I bet you were kicked out.

[/quote]

I would do the same thing I do with the threat of disease and sickness. Take precautions but live everyday smart. We cannot eliminate everything that is bad in our life. The best we can do is not be offensive to other’s lives or livelyhood. I don’t really care that there is evil out there ready to kill me or my family any more than I care about the threat of avian flu. People die, people are killed by other evil people. I don’t want to be associated with a country that wages war for false reasons.

You may think you know about something or someone by what they write or beleive but you should refrain from disparaging people you do not know becasue it makes you look like a jack-ass. As a great Sergeant Major once told me, “I’ve been called worse by far better people than you.” You sound like a jealous Army twerp wishing he were tough enough to make the Corp. They call us “the Few” for a reason. As far as getting kicked out, do you think I would make a comment about being a Marine if I had that shame. How dumb would one have to be to get kicked out of the military? all one has to do is follow orders to the best of one’s ability.

88

[quote]PGJ wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Live by the sword, die by the sword. No thank you. I’m glad you think you know or understand my moral philosphy but please give it up. I will never lift a finger to kill anyone, ever! You talk exactly like someone who has never been anywhere or seen anything of the real world. You think everything is solved with bullets and missles.

You don’t think about the human cost–not just the cost of Americans but the cost to humans. Three thousand civilians were killed on 9/11; over three thousand US military members have died in Iraq; three-hundred-thousand Iraqi civilians have lost their lives, limbs, and or health. This war will and has not accomplished anything of worth nor will it ammend the wrongs commited against us.

Lift,

What is your soultion to really bad people who really want to kill you and your family? Your message of international peace is wonderful, however there are some folks out there who disagree and are actively seeking ways to kill us (you, me, our children…) They don’t believe in peace. What do you say to them? Should we just stand by and let them continue to plot and bomb and kill us?

Based on what you have said in your posts, I don’t really believe you were a Marine. Or if you were I bet you were kicked out.

[/quote]

Ah, the old JeffR “you can’t be who you say you are because you’re not agreeing with the party line.” I don’t agree with Lifticus’ pacifism, I think it’s unrealistic and foolish, but I don’t doubt he served. Ever heard of Smedley Butler? He was saying almost the exact same thing after he left the Corps.

89

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
JeffR wrote:

liftus, forgive me, I don’t believe you. Let’s begin.

First of all, the heart/brain commentary was cute. A little trite for my taste, but, cute.

Now, if you had a family member killed, that would override your “pacifist” tendency. It’s like the born again christian who has their car stolen. They use foul language.

Second, you would want to pull this weed out at the root. Your commentary is like saying, “Well, I’ve got liver cancer, but, I only want to remove the metastastic lesion to the brain. Leave the liver cancer alone.” Further, “Doc, I refuse to stop drinking (refuse to cut off sponsors).”

“Doc, just stick with the brain and I deserve the rest.”

It’s nonsense and I think you know it. If you truly suscribe to the “Afghanistan only” camp, then you are breathtakingly myopic. You do know that al qaeda operates globally? Further, you do realize they aren’t the only threat to the U.S. and they GET THEIR ARMS/MONEY SOMEWHERE?

Finally, if you are a former marine who is now a “pacifist,” you are a perfect example why many of us were worried about voting for john kerry. Some guys who have seen too much blood, refuse to ever engage in it again. That isn’t a criticism. However, our enemies can figure this out and use it to our advantage. There is no deterrance. See his weapons systems voting/Gulf War I vote.

In a dangerous world, where brutual dictators often only understand the sword, we need someone who would at least CONSIDER using force.

JeffR

Live by the sword, die by the sword. No thank you. I’m glad you think you know or understand my moral philosphy but please give it up. I will never lift a finger to kill anyone, ever! You talk exactly like someone who has never been anywhere or seen anything of the real world. You think everything is solved with bullets and missles.

You don’t think about the human cost–not just the cost of Americans but the cost to humans. Three thousand civilians were killed on 9/11; over three thousand US military members have died in Iraq; three-hundred-thousand Iraqi civilians have lost their lives, limbs, and or health. This war will and has not accomplished anything of worth nor will it ammend the wrongs commited against us.[/quote]

liftus,

It appears we are at an impasse. I think your view of the world is very Polyanna. However, there is a certain Walt Disney appeal to it (I have to admit).

Too bad it only takes one man or violent ideology to brutally violate it.

JeffR

P.S. I’ve seen one or two unpleasant things in my lifetime.

90

[quote]gDollars37 wrote:

Ah, the old JeffR “you can’t be who you say you are because you’re not agreeing with the party line.” I don’t agree with Lifticus’ pacifism, I think it’s unrealistic and foolish, but I don’t doubt he served. Ever heard of Smedley Butler? He was saying almost the exact same thing after he left the Corps.[/quote]

Thanks for the love, g!!!

Who knows if liftus is a fraud. He/she sounds more like a ordained minister than a marine. However, there are some born again pacifists.

gdollars, speaking of party lines, I asked you in another thread which democratic candidate you favor for 2008? I’d be curious to see if your candidate wins the primary? A follow up question, would be: Can your candidate take a Southern state? You guys haven’t been doing very well in the South recently.

Thanks in advance,

JeffR

91

[quote]JeffR wrote:
gDollars37 wrote:

Ah, the old JeffR “you can’t be who you say you are because you’re not agreeing with the party line.” I don’t agree with Lifticus’ pacifism, I think it’s unrealistic and foolish, but I don’t doubt he served. Ever heard of Smedley Butler? He was saying almost the exact same thing after he left the Corps.

Thanks for the love, g!!!

Who knows if liftus is a fraud. He/she sounds more like a ordained minister than a marine. However, there are some born again pacifists.

gdollars, speaking of party lines, I asked you in another thread which democratic candidate you favor for 2008? I’d be curious to see if your candidate wins the primary? A follow up question, would be: Can your candidate take a Southern state? You guys haven’t been doing very well in the South recently.

Thanks in advance,

JeffR

[/quote]

“Us guys” huh? I re-registered as an independent when I couldn’t take the Bush administration’s incompetence and betrayal of conservative principles anymore, and voted a straight party Democratic ticket without thinking twice about it last fall.

In 2008, I like McCain, Huckabee, and Brownback, in that order. Not sure I could vote for any of the Democrats, would have been more tempted if the Republican nominee was a hack like George Allen or Bill Frist, but thankfully that’s out of the question now. Any other queries?

92

Oh my GOD! I HAVE been away for a while. Now you guys are letting lifitcus pretend that he’s a Marine? The teenage communist who has been consistently anti-American for a year or so of continuous posting? Doesn’t that situation scream “Marine”?

Jesus Hubert Humphrey Horatio Fucking Christ – What a phony!

93

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
JeffR wrote:
gDollars37 wrote:

Ah, the old JeffR “you can’t be who you say you are because you’re not agreeing with the party line.” I don’t agree with Lifticus’ pacifism, I think it’s unrealistic and foolish, but I don’t doubt he served. Ever heard of Smedley Butler? He was saying almost the exact same thing after he left the Corps.

Thanks for the love, g!!!

Who knows if liftus is a fraud. He/she sounds more like a ordained minister than a marine. However, there are some born again pacifists.

gdollars, speaking of party lines, I asked you in another thread which democratic candidate you favor for 2008? I’d be curious to see if your candidate wins the primary? A follow up question, would be: Can your candidate take a Southern state? You guys haven’t been doing very well in the South recently.

Thanks in advance,

JeffR

“Us guys” huh? I re-registered as an independent when I couldn’t take the Bush administration’s incompetence and betrayal of conservative principles anymore, and voted a straight party Democratic ticket without thinking twice about it last fall.

In 2008, I like McCain, Huckabee, and Brownback, in that order. Not sure I could vote for any of the Democrats, would have been more tempted if the Republican nominee was a hack like George Allen or Bill Frist, but thankfully that’s out of the question now. Any other queries?[/quote]

gdollars,

Thanks for the response. However, let’s cut the crap, shall we? Which democrat do you plan on voting for? Even if you consider voting for a Republican, the party standard bearer will inevitably champion SOMETHING Bush believes in. Then you’ll hit the default button --straight democratic party circa 2006.

Who is it? You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. I’d be interested in hearing how your party is going to break through in the South.

Thanks,

JeffR

94

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Oh my GOD! I HAVE been away for a while. Now you guys are letting lifitcus pretend that he’s a Marine? The teenage communist who has been consistently anti-American for a year or so of continuous posting? Doesn’t that situation scream “Marine”?

Jesus Hubert Humphrey Horatio Fucking Christ – What a phony![/quote]

Chucky,

Sorry, I forgot that liftus was the communist kid.

liftus, you are a bad person for impersonating a Marine.

JeffR

95

[quote]JeffR wrote:

gdollars,

Thanks for the response. However, let’s cut the crap, shall we? Which democrat do you plan on voting for? Even if you consider voting for a Republican, the party standard bearer will inevitably champion SOMETHING Bush believes in. Then you’ll hit the default button --straight democratic party circa 2006.

Who is it? You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. I’d be interested in hearing how your party is going to break through in the South.

Thanks,

JeffR
[/quote]

Honestly, are you retarded? Everything I stated is true, and I don’t know how, nor do I really care, to prove that to someone over the internet. I had never voted for a Democrat until this past fall, and would hope that was the only time I have to do so, but given the state of American conservatism I kind of doubt it. I like the three Republican presidential candidates I named a lot, not a huge Giuliani guy but he’s alright. The only campaigning Republican I’d be tempted to vote against would be Mitt Romney, because I think he’s a conservative version of John Kerrey (flip-flopper who simply follows the crowd regardless of where it’s leading).

And while it’s incredibly flattering to be told I “seem like a reasonably intelligent person” by the chief mindless partisan on this site, I question your own intelligence if you can’t concede that many conservatives have turned against this president. Bill Buckley, Bruce Bartlett, George Will…last I checked, none of them were Democrats. Do you not know this, or do you just refuse to accept it, kind of like Dick Cheney and Iraq?

96

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
JeffR wrote:

gdollars,

Thanks for the response. However, let’s cut the crap, shall we? Which democrat do you plan on voting for? Even if you consider voting for a Republican, the party standard bearer will inevitably champion SOMETHING Bush believes in. Then you’ll hit the default button --straight democratic party circa 2006.

Who is it? You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. I’d be interested in hearing how your party is going to break through in the South.

Thanks,

JeffR

Honestly, are you retarded? Everything I stated is true, and I don’t know how, nor do I really care, to prove that to someone over the internet. I had never voted for a Democrat until this past fall, and would hope that was the only time I have to do so, but given the state of American conservatism I kind of doubt it. I like the three Republican presidential candidates I named a lot, not a huge Giuliani guy but he’s alright. The only campaigning Republican I’d be tempted to vote against would be Mitt Romney, because I think he’s a conservative version of John Kerrey (flip-flopper who simply follows the crowd regardless of where it’s leading).

And while it’s incredibly flattering to be told I “seem like a reasonably intelligent person” by the chief mindless partisan on this site, I question your own intelligence if you can’t concede that many conservatives have turned against this president. Bill Buckley, Bruce Bartlett, George Will…last I checked, none of them were Democrats. Do you not know this, or do you just refuse to accept it, kind of like Dick Cheney and Iraq?[/quote]

gdollars,

You raise many intersting points.

First of all, I think you are pretty.

Your insults delight me!!!

Second, your credibility is at issue because you are a constant and unwavering critic of all things Republican. Spare me the, “Bush has left the Conservatives.” That would be fine if Bush deviated from every Republican stance. However, you are a constant and unwavering critic of every stance the man takes. Every utterance and position he advocates meets with either open hostility or silence. Some of the things he espouses are supported by the majority of Conservatives. Therefore, you are attacking more than a single man.

Yet, you are here day after day with your hard-left slant on all the major issues of the day.

If you truly don’t care what anyone thinks of your poltical leanings, why fight it? Why pretend to be something you aren’t?

If there is any doubt, going forward, we can monitor your responses and I’ll point out Republican dogma versus your interpretation of the event.

For the third, and final time, which democrat do you favor and why?

JeffR

97

[quote]JeffR wrote:
liftus, you are a bad person for impersonating a Marine.

JeffR
[/quote]
Wouldn’t that be impersonating a former marine?

98

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Oh my GOD! I HAVE been away for a while. Now you guys are letting lifitcus pretend that he’s a Marine? The teenage communist who has been consistently anti-American for a year or so of continuous posting? Doesn’t that situation scream “Marine”?

Jesus Hubert Humphrey Horatio Fucking Christ – What a phony!
[/quote]

Well then I guess we’ll get our panties in a wad then.

I have never been anti-American. EVER. I am critical of many foreign policies. I am extremely critical of the current administration. I happen to think there might be many virtuous qualities to communism. How does that make me anti-American? Are you telling me Americans are only allowed to act and think like you?

I don’t talk about myself as marine except when I think it’s relevant…only if it might lend credence to a particular subject. Don’t think it impossible that people like myself served–there are more of us than you might realize.

99

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PGJ wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Live by the sword, die by the sword. No thank you. I’m glad you think you know or understand my moral philosphy but please give it up. I will never lift a finger to kill anyone, ever! You talk exactly like someone who has never been anywhere or seen anything of the real world. You think everything is solved with bullets and missles.

You don’t think about the human cost–not just the cost of Americans but the cost to humans. Three thousand civilians were killed on 9/11; over three thousand US military members have died in Iraq; three-hundred-thousand Iraqi civilians have lost their lives, limbs, and or health. This war will and has not accomplished anything of worth nor will it ammend the wrongs commited against us.

Lift,

What is your soultion to really bad people who really want to kill you and your family? Your message of international peace is wonderful, however there are some folks out there who disagree and are actively seeking ways to kill us (you, me, our children…) They don’t believe in peace. What do you say to them? Should we just stand by and let them continue to plot and bomb and kill us?

Based on what you have said in your posts, I don’t really believe you were a Marine. Or if you were I bet you were kicked out.

I would do the same thing I do with the threat of disease and sickness. Take precautions but live everyday smart. We cannot eliminate everything that is bad in our life. The best we can do is not be offensive to other’s lives or livelyhood. I don’t really care that there is evil out there ready to kill me or my family any more than I care about the threat of avian flu. People die, people are killed by other evil people. I don’t want to be associated with a country that wages war for false reasons.

You may think you know about something or someone by what they write or beleive but you should refrain from disparaging people you do not know becasue it makes you look like a jack-ass. As a great Sergeant Major once told me, “I’ve been called worse by far better people than you.” You sound like a jealous Army twerp wishing he were tough enough to make the Corp. They call us “the Few” for a reason. As far as getting kicked out, do you think I would make a comment about being a Marine if I had that shame. How dumb would one have to be to get kicked out of the military? all one has to do is follow orders to the best of one’s ability.[/quote]

My firend, I’ve been in the Marines for 14 years and counting. YOU, sound exctly like the kind of guy who couldn’t cut it or joined for the uniform, then realized that being a Marine is all about defending your country. I still don’t believe you were a Marine.

So international terrorism is like a the bird flu? Nothing you can do about it? Hey, stick with lifting weights. I’ll protect you the best I can. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is just fine.

There is no was you served in my Marine Corps and believe the things you say above.

100

[quote]PGJ wrote:
My firend, I’ve been in the Marines for 14 years and counting. YOU, sound exctly like the kind of guy who couldn’t cut it or joined for the uniform, then realized that being a Marine is all about defending your country. I still don’t believe you were a Marine.

So international terrorism is like a the bird flu? Nothing you can do about it? Hey, stick with lifting weights. I’ll protect you the best I can. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is just fine.

There is no was you served in my Marine Corps and believe the things you say above.

[/quote]

Good for you. I really don’t care about your service any more than I care about my own. I grew up around the military so I don’t get off on the perception people may have of it; plus having been there, done that I know the truth about the “glory” of indentured servitude.

Actually, avian flu is a bigger threat than terrorism since it affects more people than terrorism does. Disease doesn’t care about policy or human conventions.

I precisely believe the things I do because I served with people like you. You can take that as a compliment or not. I don’t care. My marine corps…blah, blah, blah…your marines hate you don’t they?

You just believe everything your superiors tell you like a good little devil-dog and I’ll sleep safer at night knowing you just follow orders and supervise other junior jarheads that clean the head. You remind me of a little pissed off staff sergeant that couldn’t make GySgt…he was eventually forced to retire a SSgt. What a loser he was.