Alienating Our Military

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]PGJ wrote:
I agree that for the most part, liberal America doesn’t give a flying F*** about military personnel. They will say “bring the troops home” and all that “we just want the troops to be safe” crap, but when the rubber meets the road, they really don’t care about troop welfare. It’s all about discrediting and criticizing President Bush no matter what he does. Protestors at the D.C. “Peace Protest” were spitting, cursing, and throwing cigarette butts at the military folks who were there as part of the anti-protest. Those hippie ass-holes are all about ANYTHING anti-Bush. They are THE MOST intollerant people in this country. If you don’t believe their agenda you get branded a racist, a sexist, intollerant, ignorant, and GASP fundamentalist. They vandalized the Fox News truck. Come on, libs. Grow up.

Libs do not truly care about the troops. “Bring them home” is just a neat little political slogan to discredit the President. In fact, they actually pitty the troops and consider them like second-class citizens. I have seen MANY liberal references to the military as “cattle”.

I say "STFU! Let me do my job. You shut your pie-hole and let the real men and women of this nation go out and protect your liberties. I volunteered for this. I am capable of making my own decisions. Not everyone thinks like a lib. Some people are actually PROUD of this country and willing to die for it. If you would quit calling us and our boss “murderers and terrorists”, maybe we could instill some confidence in the Iraqis that we are there till the job is done. So, in closing, I say to liberal America, you are not as smart as you think you are. There are people out there who want you dead. They don’t see R or D, they see American. You had 8 years under Clinton to do something about this and did NOTHING. It’s not pretty, and people will die. That’s American history. Americans are willing to die for freedom. Unfortunately, liberals do not feel this way. Liberals have nothing worth fighting for. That is very sad.

Off soapbox.[/quote]

this is not about democrats vs. republicans. this is about the people vs. the ruling class. the people of the U.S. and the people of Iraq both want the war to end immediately. the war is not protecting lives it is ending them. if you think iraq was a threat to the U.S. you are incorrect.

if we had to go to war to defend the people of the U.S. then i would be willing to die. however, this is not the case. we are at war fighting for corporate interests.

102

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PGJ wrote:
My firend, I’ve been in the Marines for 14 years and counting. YOU, sound exctly like the kind of guy who couldn’t cut it or joined for the uniform, then realized that being a Marine is all about defending your country. I still don’t believe you were a Marine.

So international terrorism is like a the bird flu? Nothing you can do about it? Hey, stick with lifting weights. I’ll protect you the best I can. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is just fine.

There is no was you served in my Marine Corps and believe the things you say above.

Good for you. I really don’t care about your service any more than I care about my own. I grew up around the military so I don’t get off on the perception people may have of it; plus having been there, done that I know the truth about the “glory” of indentured servitude.

Actually, avian flu is a bigger threat than terrorism since it affects more people than terrorism does. Disease doesn’t care about policy or human conventions.

I precisely believe the things I do because I served with people like you. You can take that as a compliment or not. I don’t care. My marine corps…blah, blah, blah…your marines hate you don’t they?

You just believe everything your superiors tell you like a good little devil-dog and I’ll sleep safer at night knowing you just follow orders and supervise other junior jarheads that clean the head. You remind me of a little pissed off staff sergeant that couldn’t make GySgt…he was eventually forced to retire a SSgt. What a loser he was.[/quote]

Gentlemen,
We are fighting amongst ourselves in front of civilians. Take to the personal messages.

Stay on topic. Stay on topic.

103

[quote]BH6 wrote:
Gentlemen,
We are fighting amongst ourselves in front of civilians. Take to the personal messages.

Stay on topic. Stay on topic.
[/quote]

I am done. It appears some military members cannot stand the idea of someone like me in their midst even though I did the same job many of them are doing.

This is where the real disconnect lies. We have a military that only “serves” the conservative right so why don’t we just have a military composed of good, God-fearing, christian conservatives? This was something I was oblivious to when I wore the uniform now it gets shoved down my throat.

104

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
A big reason Rome fell was because the Legionnaires felt no ‘connection’ with people back in Rome. Here they were, risking life and limb, for unappreciative assholes having orgies back home.

Substitute the cut-and-run Democratic vermin for the Romans and we’ve got a good analogy. Send 'em out to fight and then become cowards, hiding under their comfortable beds.

Why do voters put cowards and people who use the war for political power into office? Wake the fuck up, America!!![/quote]

Because:

The army isn’t protecting the country, just like the Roman army wasn’t “protecting” anything by piling up it’s conquests of obscure territories in Gaul and Germania.

  1. They aren’t “defending” anything, they’re perpetually attacking other nations which haven’t attacked us (whine all day but no single statement you can make changes this F-A-C-T)

  2. They aren’t doing it “for us”, they’re doing it for themselves and for the military-industrial complex

WE are the aggressors, you see. Everyone with a pair of eyes and half a brain the world over sees this. Aggressors don’t earn sympathy, only resentment. Sympathy is reserved for people who are defending themselves AGAINST aggressors like us, or otherwise percieved to be engaged in noble causes.

How can you possibly define a nation with troops stationed in 150 countries around the world as anything but an “empire”? And following from this, when have empires and their imperial armies ever recieved sympathy?

105

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
BH6 wrote:
Gentlemen,
We are fighting amongst ourselves in front of civilians. Take to the personal messages.

Stay on topic. Stay on topic.

I am done. It appears some military members cannot stand the idea of someone like me in their midst even though I did the same job many of them are doing.

This is where the real disconnect lies. We have a military that only “serves” the conservative right so why don’t we just have a military composed of good, God-fearing, christian conservatives? This was something I was oblivious to when I wore the uniform now it gets shoved down my throat.[/quote]

You couldn’t be more wrong. Because you have rejected values that many hold as core beliefs doesn’t elevate you as a superior moral being. Rather you are viewed as someone who has lost their way and based your moral belief on selfishness rather then self sacrafice and service.

Duty, Honor, Country. Some live by it, others mock it. That’s the disconnect.

Just because someone is willing to lay down their life to preserve the rights of someone who will not fight for themselves, unless the conditions suit them, doesn’t mean they want to be like them. It means an allegiance to something that isn’t self centered and focused on the individual.

Yeah it sounds corny to some people. Maybe to you. To others it’s a core belief. You may never know it but that’s not something I worry about. And yes there’s more guys who think like me in the military then you…Marines especially. Pacifist Marine is an oxymoron.

106

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
A big reason Rome fell was because the Legionnaires felt no ‘connection’ with people back in Rome. Here they were, risking life and limb, for unappreciative assholes having orgies back home.

Substitute the cut-and-run Democratic vermin for the Romans and we’ve got a good analogy. Send 'em out to fight and then become cowards, hiding under their comfortable beds.

Why do voters put cowards and people who use the war for political power into office? Wake the fuck up, America!!!

Because:

The army isn’t protecting the country, just like the Roman army wasn’t “protecting” anything by piling up it’s conquests of obscure territories in Gaul and Germania.

  1. They aren’t “defending” anything, they’re perpetually attacking other nations which haven’t attacked us (whine all day but no single statement you can make changes this F-A-C-T)

  2. They aren’t doing it “for us”, they’re doing it for themselves and for the military-industrial complex

WE are the aggressors, you see. Everyone with a pair of eyes and half a brain the world over sees this. Aggressors don’t earn sympathy, only resentment. Sympathy is reserved for people who are defending themselves AGAINST aggressors like us, or otherwise percieved to be engaged in noble causes.

How can you possibly define a nation with troops stationed in 150 countries around the world as anything but an “empire”? And following from this, when have empires and their imperial armies ever recieved sympathy?[/quote]

First of all, our troops are in many other countries at the request of those nations (usually to defend that nation from neighboring threats). Some are there as the result of peace negotiations to ensure war doesn’t happen again there. Some are there to prevent further aggressions of really bad people in the geographical area.

You don’t think our military is protecting you right now? You don’t think if we pulled out that we would be attacked right here? Your national defense strategy of reaction is flawed and simpleminded. You want us to to be attacked before reacting. You can’t run a country like that.

And please name one country or territory that America has conquered and made into American soil (Europe, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Central America, Japan, Afghanistan). Every time we have gone to war, we have given the land back to it’s government. And as Colin Powell said “we have only asked for enough land to bury our dead”.

And you think all those Americans who are willing to fight and die in Iraq are doing it for themselves? Does that make sense? Nobody gets rich in the military. Nobody gets famous in the military. Yes, there are good benefits and a great retirement, but that’s not worth risking your life for. We serve this country. We don’t serve conservatives or liberals or anything like that (I served for 7 years of Clinton and 7 years of Bush, it’s all the same). We believe in America. We believe it’s worth dieing for. You laugh at that, but then you have nothing worth fighting for.

107

[quote]hedo wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
BH6 wrote:
Gentlemen,
We are fighting amongst ourselves in front of civilians. Take to the personal messages.

Stay on topic. Stay on topic.

I am done. It appears some military members cannot stand the idea of someone like me in their midst even though I did the same job many of them are doing.

This is where the real disconnect lies. We have a military that only “serves” the conservative right so why don’t we just have a military composed of good, God-fearing, christian conservatives? This was something I was oblivious to when I wore the uniform now it gets shoved down my throat.

You couldn’t be more wrong. Because you have rejected values that many hold as core beliefs doesn’t elevate you as a superior moral being. Rather you are viewed as someone who has lost their way and based your moral belief on selfishness rather then self sacrafice and service.

Duty, Honor, Country. Some live by it, others mock it. That’s the disconnect.

Just because someone is willing to lay down their life to preserve the rights of someone who will not fight for themselves, unless the conditions suit them, doesn’t mean they want to be like them. It means an allegiance to something that isn’t self centered and focused on the individual.

Yeah it sounds corny to some people. Maybe to you. To others it’s a core belief. You may never know it but that’s not something I worry about. And yes there’s more guys who think like me in the military then you…Marines especially. Pacifist Marine is an oxymoron.

[/quote]

Outstanding!

I still doubt Lift was a Marine. Or if he was it was a short career terminated by involuntary discharge. I’ve known a lot of former Marines, and NONE of them has his attitude of pure pussification.

108

[quote]hedo wrote:

You couldn’t be more wrong. Because you have rejected values that many hold as core beliefs doesn’t elevate you as a superior moral being. Rather you are viewed as someone who has lost their way and based your moral belief on selfishness rather then self sacrafice and service.

Duty, Honor, Country. Some live by it, others mock it. That’s the disconnect.

Just because someone is willing to lay down their life to preserve the rights of someone who will not fight for themselves, unless the conditions suit them, doesn’t mean they want to be like them. It means an allegiance to something that isn’t self centered and focused on the individual.

[/quote]
First of all I am a former marine. I was not a pacifist when I was active. I was more than ready to put rounds down-range if called to do so. That’s irrelevant now.

I lead a different life and have had a change of life experience. I do not feel violence really solves anything and I especially do not feel that killing poor people in another country serves our interests–EVER. That is a different argument for a different thread.

That being said, military values are not real values. They are a means to brainwash people into laying down their life for ideals. It relies on emotive language like selflessness, sacrifice, honor, courage, duty, country, etc., that have nothing to do with the crux of what military defense means.

These are just ideals that the military must live by in order to function–I understand that. It does not mean I think they are “the” values.

Sure there is virtue in that line of thinking but people in the military are humans first who think and act like humans–not automatons. I can recite all 14 leadership traits marines are supposed to learn but it doesn’t make me a better person or leader if I do not know how to apply them to my everyday life.

This is the same way I feel about core-values–great tools if one can apply them to real situations but nothing more than rhetoric when cleaning your rifle in a fighting-hole. I doubt any soldier or marine is even thinking about honor, courage, or commitment when they are viewing the “enemy” down-range.

It’s more like: Breathe, Relax, Aim, Squeeze, Shoot…or whatever new method they are teaching at the range these days.

I do not hold myself as a moral superior nor do I believe that others in the military are somehow superior for “serving” somebody else’s interests. You are right that there are more people like you than me in the military. That is not even an argument. It was true then and I know its true now, how does that make military culture and values superior to mine?

BTW, I don’t believe that I am in any way superior to anyone.

109

[quote]PGJ wrote:
I still doubt Lift was a Marine. Or if he was it was a short career terminated by involuntary discharge. I’ve known a lot of former Marines, and NONE of them has his attitude of pure pussification.

[/quote]
I doubt you are a marine. See how that works?

110

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PGJ wrote:
I still doubt Lift was a Marine. Or if he was it was a short career terminated by involuntary discharge. I’ve known a lot of former Marines, and NONE of them has his attitude of pure pussification.

I doubt you are a marine. See how that works?
[/quote]

You got me. What was the life-changing experience that turned you from hard-corps killer to pacifist?

111

[quote]PGJ wrote:
What was the life-changing experience that turned you from hard-corps killer to pacifist?

[/quote]
It really wasn’t what happened to me it was what happened to my “brother” while in Iraq right after “Shock and Awe” that translated to who he is now as a person. Let’s just say I am grateful I never had to witness or do the things I was trained to do. I really don’t want to go into details about the events that he went thru because they are personal to him and I don’t have his permission to discuss them.

You can imagine, if you’ve been over there, the consequences of being trained to shoot a rifle at another living human being. It’s not a new story but does become very real when a loved one is actually struggling with those demons.

One night after one too many drinks as so often happens between brothers-in-arms we got to talking about the whole situation and emotions were running high and I made a causal comment like, “wow, it sucks to be you–suck-it-up”-- you know, very Gunny like. I was literally thrown to the ground with his hand around my neck asking why I was mocking him and that I was probably a secret enemy of the State, etc, etc. Ok, probably not the most sensitive thing to say to a veteran of war after he tells you how many people he had to kill. But what does one say to that?

I’ve been out for many years. He stayed in and gave a further commitment to “God, Corp, and Country” and now is a civilian who doesn’t sleep at night; nor does the Veteran’s Administration acknowledged his issues as legitimate. It’s tragic and happening to many service members who come back from war. We thought it was a done issue after Vietnam and probably is taken a little more serious by the military but still seems criminal to allow a sick individual to suffer after so many sacrifices. These sacrifices aren’t worth it to me and I don’t think its right for the American public to expect this for such a non-issue as Iraq was. Now we’re stuck.

Bottom-line, hearing the details of killing and death and seeing the person it can potentially turn one into made me not want to have anything to do with it. I can’t believe I was so readily able to accept it when I was younger.

112

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PGJ wrote:
What was the life-changing experience that turned you from hard-corps killer to pacifist?

It really wasn’t what happened to me it was what happened to my “brother” while in Iraq right after “Shock and Awe” that translated to who he is now as a person. Let’s just say I am grateful I never had to witness or do the things I was trained to do. I really don’t want to go into details about the events that he went thru because they are personal to him and I don’t have his permission to discuss them.

You can imagine, if you’ve been over there, the consequences of being trained to shoot a rifle at another living human being. It’s not a new story but does become very real when a loved one is actually struggling with those demons.

One night after one too many drinks as so often happens between brothers-in-arms we got to talking about the whole situation and emotions were running high and I made a causal comment like, “wow, it sucks to be you–suck-it-up”-- you know, very Gunny like. I was literally thrown to the ground with his hand around my neck asking why I was mocking him and that I was probably a secret enemy of the State, etc, etc. Ok, probably not the most sensitive thing to say to a veteran of war after he tells you how many people he had to kill. But what does one say to that?

I’ve been out for many years. He stayed in and gave a further commitment to “God, Corp, and Country” and now is a civilian who doesn’t sleep at night; nor does the Veteran’s Administration acknowledged his issues as legitimate. It’s tragic and happening to many service members who come back from war. We thought it was a done issue after Vietnam and probably is taken a little more serious by the military but still seems criminal to allow a sick individual to suffer after so many sacrifices. These sacrifices aren’t worth it to me and I don’t think its right for the American public to expect this for such a non-issue as Iraq was. Now we’re stuck.

Bottom-line, hearing the details of killing and death and seeing the person it can potentially turn one into made me not want to have anything to do with it. I can’t believe I was so readily able to accept it when I was younger. [/quote]

That’s unfortunate what happened to your friend and I apologize for questioning your service in the Marines. However, I would caution you not to form your world-view based on the experiences of another. You have some REALLY strong opinions on national defense and pacifism based on your friend’s issues. Did YOU end up with PTSD? War is a bad thing. Nobody wants to fight, but somebody has to be willing and able to do it. Our foreign policy isn’t perfect, but at least we are doing something instead of letting the bad guys blow us up with no threat of retaliation. Personally, I’ll go wherever the Marine Corps tells me in order to take the fight to the bad guys. PLEASE, don’t ever think we are the bad guys.

I just don’t understand how someone can go through Marine Corps bootcamp and not understand that your job is to follow orders and go to war at the pleasure of the President, regardless of your personal/political opinions. I can understand joining the Air Force or the Navy and not understanding this, but joining the Marines indicates that you accept the fatalistic warrior culture.

113

[quote]PGJ wrote:
That’s unfortunate what happened to your friend and I apologize for questioning your service in the Marines. However, I would caution you not to form your world-view based on the experiences of another. You have some REALLY strong opinions on national defense and pacifism based on your friend’s issues. Did YOU end up with PTSD? War is a bad thing. Nobody wants to fight, but somebody has to be willing and able to do it. Our foreign policy isn’t perfect, but at least we are doing something instead of letting the bad guys blow us up with no threat of retaliation. Personally, I’ll go wherever the Marine Corps tells me in order to take the fight to the bad guys. PLEASE, don’t ever think we are the bad guys.

I just don’t understand how someone can go through Marine Corps bootcamp and not understand that your job is to follow orders and go to war at the pleasure of the President, regardless of your personal/political opinions. I can understand joining the Air Force or the Navy and not understanding this, but joining the Marines indicates that you accept the fatalistic warrior culture.

[/quote]

No, I personally did not suffer in any way and had completely different opinions about the world around me when I was in the corps. Joining the Marines was the best and worst thing I ever did. I definitely had a love-hate relationship with service as I’m sure all military members do at times. It’s easy to accept things at face value when one is young and doesn’t know any better. It’s much harder to do this as one gets older and becomes more set in their ways–you know, “can’t teach an old dog new tricks?”

As a 21 year old joining the USMC I definitely felt the way you describe. After bootcamp there was no order I wasn’t ready to follow but we were also living in different times then. There hadn’t been an attack on US soil and the ideas were easier to swallow when they weren’t yet real. This was just after Desert Storm and we were conducting northern and southern watch–there was no foreseeable threat at the time because Saddam’s army was shooting hand-held rockets from the back of pick-up trucks. This wasn’t exactly the cold war fear I grew up with.

Protection and safety are important. I believe in the virtue of the military–these are my roots if nothing else. The fact of the matter is that aggression and violence no matter what side one is on only leads to further escalated violence and aggression. Sticks lead to stones which lead to guns which lead to rockets, etc. The only solution I can see is that one side has to be completely annihilated which is an outcome that is completely unacceptable to me because the collateral damage that would be done would cause yet more violence. At best it’s a temporary solution. If we focused our military might on our own borders I feel we’d be more successful at protecting our interests and deterring violence against our own people. That to me is the best we can do.

114

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

No, I personally did not suffer in any way and had completely different opinions about the world around me when I was in the corps. Joining the Marines was the best and worst thing I ever did. I definitely had a love-hate relationship with service as I’m sure all military members do at times. It’s easy to accept things at face value when one is young and doesn’t know any better. It’s much harder to do this as one gets older and becomes more set in their ways–you know, “can’t teach an old dog new tricks?”

As a 21 year old joining the USMC I definitely felt the way you describe. After bootcamp there was no order I wasn’t ready to follow but we were also living in different times then. There hadn’t been an attack on US soil and the ideas were easier to swallow when they weren’t yet real. This was just after Desert Storm and we were conducting northern and southern watch–there was no foreseeable threat at the time because Saddam’s army was shooting hand-held rockets from the back of pick-up trucks. This wasn’t exactly the cold war fear I grew up with.

Protection and safety are important. I believe in the virtue of the military–these are my roots if nothing else. The fact of the matter is that aggression and violence no matter what side one is on only leads to further escalated violence and aggression. Sticks lead to stones which lead to guns which lead to rockets, etc. The only solution I can see is that one side has to be completely annihilated which is an outcome that is completely unacceptable to me because the collateral damage that would be done would cause yet more violence. At best it’s a temporary solution. If we focused our military might on our own borders I feel we’d be more successful at protecting our interests and deterring violence against our own people. That to me is the best we can do.[/quote]

I also joined right after Desert Storm. I think a lot of folks joined then and didn’t even think about the possibility of going to war because nothing was going on. I think every Marine has a love/hate relationship with the Corps. Sometimes it sucks ass (I’ve said “F*** it, I’m out of here” many times), but it sure beats working at WalMart. I am looking forward to retirement and getting a “real” job. But I love the Corps and wouldn’t change careers right now for anything (well, if I won the lottery I’d have some tought decisions to make).

I understand your point about national defense, but at some point you have to quit letting others punch you in the stomach. There are too many people out there who believe they have the right to oppress and attack others. Believe me, if we weren’t policeing the world, N.Korea and China would have invaded S.Korea and Japan, Saddam would own the Middle East, and Russia would own Europe. Can you imagine a world like that? We can’t be isolationists. The Marine Corps, the smallest branch of the American military (180,000 strong) is larger than the entire Brittish armed forces, the next most powerful military force in the western world.

N.Korea spends upwards of 35-40% of it’s national budget on it’s military (American spends about 4-5%). China has several million in it’s army. Iraq used to have the 4th largest military in the world behind China, the Soviet Union, and USA.

My point is that there are some very bad people out there with very large militaries. For the most part, our allies are pretty defenseless. If we were to be isolationists, our allies would fall and our economy would crumble. Not to mention our enemies would be knocking at our door as they grow larger and more powerful.

We can’t just stand by and watch from the sidelines. Eventually we will have to do something.

115

Hillary will win (or maybe Edwards) and shit all over our military. They know all this which is why they consistently vote Republican.

I’m still amazed that the some American people vote for those who want to run and hide like rodents at the first sound of an angry Mullah, or some other sack of shit.

116

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Hillary will win (or maybe Edwards) and shit all over our military. They know all this which is why they consistently vote Republican.

I’m still amazed that the some American people vote for those who want to run and hide like rodents at the first sound of an angry Mullah, or some other sack of shit.[/quote]

Yes. How do you make peace with someone who has no interest in peace? Somehow there needs to be a mentality change in the Middle East. The solution is not military force, but without military force the soulution will never get a chance.

117

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Hillary will win (or maybe Edwards) and shit all over our military. They know all this which is why they consistently vote Republican.

I’m still amazed that the some American people vote for those who want to run and hide like rodents at the first sound of an angry Mullah, or some other sack of shit.

Yes. How do you make peace with someone who has no interest in peace? Somehow there needs to be a mentality change in the Middle East. The solution is not military force, but without military force the soulution will never get a chance.
[/quote]

PGJ,

It’s sad that dems and anti-americans do not know how violent and uncertain our own history has been. I think of fighting two wars of Independence and 600,000 plus dead in our Civil War.

You hear the slobbering about “un-winnable war in Iraq.” Worse, “they don’t want freedom.”

Bull. I remember reading about the slobbers’ ancestors saying the same thing in 1777, 1812, and 1864.

Not to mention the high rate of unforced participation in the three elections in Iraq.

Remember, if france had not economically and militarily intervened, we wouldn’t exist in our present form. If they hadn’t stuck it out while we formed our nation, we wouldn’t exist. If memory serves they declared war on England on July 10th, 1778 and fought through 1783.

We are Iraq’s france.

JeffR

118

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Hillary will win (or maybe Edwards) and shit all over our military. They know all this which is why they consistently vote Republican.
[/quote]

I don’t think Edwards would do that. He comes from a state with a very large population of military and made a point of getting to know the generals in charge there. He understands better than most people I think.

119

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Hillary will win (or maybe Edwards) and shit all over our military. They know all this which is why they consistently vote Republican.

I don’t think Edwards would do that. He comes from a state with a very large population of military and made a point of getting to know the generals in charge there. He understands better than most people I think.[/quote]

Hilary will self-implode. She won’t make it. She is covering up too much stuff. You should hear the HMX-1 guys talk about her (HMX is the Presidential helicopter squadron that flies the President around). She is not a nice, even tempered person. She’d be the one to over-react in a emergency and hit the big red button. She is like that nut-so astronaut lady…one step away from really loosing it. I can’t beleive there is a man in this country who would actually vote for her.

Edwards would be more palatable, but then what the hell has he done? It’s either Hillary or Obama. They’re the rock stars right now.

120

[quote]JeffR wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Hillary will win (or maybe Edwards) and shit all over our military. They know all this which is why they consistently vote Republican.

I’m still amazed that the some American people vote for those who want to run and hide like rodents at the first sound of an angry Mullah, or some other sack of shit.

Yes. How do you make peace with someone who has no interest in peace? Somehow there needs to be a mentality change in the Middle East. The solution is not military force, but without military force the soulution will never get a chance.

PGJ,

It’s sad that dems and anti-americans do not know how violent and uncertain our own history has been. I think of fighting two wars of Independence and 600,000 plus dead in our Civil War.

You hear the slobbering about “un-winnable war in Iraq.” Worse, “they don’t want freedom.”

Bull. I remember reading about the slobbers’ ancestors saying the same thing in 1777, 1812, and 1864.

Not to mention the high rate of unforced participation in the three elections in Iraq.

Remember, if france had not economically and militarily intervened, we wouldn’t exist in our present form. If they hadn’t stuck it out while we formed our nation, we wouldn’t exist. If memory serves they declared war on England on July 10th, 1778 and fought through 1783.

We are Iraq’s france.

JeffR
[/quote]

What most people don’t understand also is that this nation was a disaster for many decades after 1776. Even up until the Civil War our nation wasn’t very well organized. But our history books in grade school just kind of stop at the Revolutionary War, skip to the Civil War, then go on to WWII. You get the impression that everything was hunky-dorey, smoothe sailing in between. You don’t hear about the West Virginia Coal Mine War of the early 1900’s, or the New York ethnic gang warfare of the 1800’s, or that part of the Union Army was pulled off the Gettysburg battlefield in 1863 to stop a riot in New York city (2,000+ civilians were killed by the Army in that little riot).

Japan and Germany were complete disasters after WWII. Germany was such a disaster after the Treaty of Versailles that ended WWI that Hitler was able to use it fuel his rise to power and eventually justify starting another war.

History is ugly.