Alienating Our Military

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Ok, let me get this straight: if your mother/sister were killed in a brutal attack, you would demand attacking al qaeda only in Afghanistan? bin laden the only al qaeda leader?

No. You would want to attack and destroy terrorists everywhere. If you thought terrorists were in Iraq and were being supported by Iraq, you’d be all for removing that intransigent regime.

You would be all for sending a strong message to all supporters of terrorism in any form. You would seek deterrance.

Unfortunately, your argument is hyper-partisan. It doesn’t pass the sniff test. You’ve convinced yourself that there is no reason to have attacked Iraq other than selfish, political advantage seeking. It’s all about your hatred of one man.

I know full well you’d be the number one hawk on the planet if your family was killed. It would mean far more to you than “winning” an argument with a bunch of “sheep.” It would be personal.

You’d drop the “sheep” crap and would be more interested killing and capturing terrorists.

Just open your mind to other lines of thought. See what happens.

JeffR

[/quote]

No, I think with my brain, not my heart. I know Iraq had nothing to do with 911. I knew it the day the attack took place. I knew the day the 2003 invasion of Iraq took place. The “terrorists” that attacked the US in 2001 were trained in Afghanistan and were apart of one man’s organization. I would insist that he be put to justice. I would not worry about stopping terrorism world-wide as it is am impossible task. We can manage terrorism better than we can “fight” it.

As a former Marine I am a “born-again” pacifist. War is mostly un-necessary.

62

[quote]PGJ wrote:

Very well said. You don’t see a bunch of guys in a little cardboard boat trying to escape to France or Mexico or Canada.
[/quote]

As Lifticus said, yes you do. 10% of France is Muslim because of the economy. Hundreds of North Africans die every year trying to make it into Spain. Tens of thousands of Eastern Europeans sneak into Russia for work. Your statement is completely false.

Here’s one of the reasons much of the world hates Americans right now (most of those reasons are bad of course, and I don’t want to get into that whole debate). I believe America is the greatest country on Earth, despite its flaws, but to say that we’re the one shining light in a world of darkness is incredibly ignorant.

63

[quote]Ren wrote:

How many “liberals” spent their own money to sent body armor to their sons and daughters over there? I can tell you, a helluva lot more than your precious republicans.

[/quote]

OK, that was so stupid, it was somehow satisfying. It’s not like JusttheFacts stupid, where you just don’t read it after a few years. That’s like an “ooh, not-talking-point-stupid!” because of course most people who took the time to write that down would know how damningly stupid it was, so would never write it in a talking-points memo. It’s dumb when considering the composition of the military (politically), the relative personal giving of conservatives and liberals, on and on…

It’s beyond the point where I get mad at this kind of stuff and now I just appreciate good, old-fashioned, unabashed, militant stupidity. Like the kid that says he bench presses 1500 pounds at home, you just don’t get stupidity that wholesome and good enough these days.

I don’t know exactly what I’m getting at except to say thank you for the day’s most original stupidity.

64

I have gotten into this argument so late that I don’t know if I can contribute much.
I haven’t felt like I have anything in common with regular American society in about 15 years. I have been a Marine since I was 18 years old. The civilian world seems so foreign to me.

I can’t relate to it at all and I can’t imagine anything more boring than living a life where I have only myself and my family to worry about with no higher purpose.

When I eventually get out of the military, I am going to grow my hair and my beard out, I’ve always wanted to do that. Not long hippie hair, but well styled long hair. Long hair has become a bit of an obsession lately, I see dudes with long hair and I tell my wife “That guy has great hair”.

She just rolls her eyes, but I’m going to grow a sweet mullet. I liked that Irish actor’s hair in Miami Vice, it has to be pretty cool having hair so long you can tie it back.
So I have that going for me.

65

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Ok, let me get this straight: if your mother/sister were killed in a brutal attack, you would demand attacking al qaeda only in Afghanistan? bin laden the only al qaeda leader?

No. You would want to attack and destroy terrorists everywhere. If you thought terrorists were in Iraq and were being supported by Iraq, you’d be all for removing that intransigent regime.

You would be all for sending a strong message to all supporters of terrorism in any form. You would seek deterrance.

Unfortunately, your argument is hyper-partisan. It doesn’t pass the sniff test. You’ve convinced yourself that there is no reason to have attacked Iraq other than selfish, political advantage seeking. It’s all about your hatred of one man.

I know full well you’d be the number one hawk on the planet if your family was killed. It would mean far more to you than “winning” an argument with a bunch of “sheep.” It would be personal.

You’d drop the “sheep” crap and would be more interested killing and capturing terrorists.

Just open your mind to other lines of thought. See what happens.

JeffR

No, I think with my brain, not my heart. I know Iraq had nothing to do with 911. I knew it the day the attack took place. I knew the day the 2003 invasion of Iraq took place. The “terrorists” that attacked the US in 2001 were trained in Afghanistan and were apart of one man’s organization. I would insist that he be put to justice. I would not worry about stopping terrorism world-wide as it is am impossible task. We can manage terrorism better than we can “fight” it.

As a former Marine I am a “born-again” pacifist. War is mostly un-necessary.[/quote]

liftus, forgive me, I don’t believe you. Let’s begin.

First of all, the heart/brain commentary was cute. A little trite for my taste, but, cute.

Now, if you had a family member killed, that would override your “pacifist” tendency. It’s like the born again christian who has their car stolen. They use foul language.

Second, you would want to pull this weed out at the root. Your commentary is like saying, “Well, I’ve got liver cancer, but, I only want to remove the metastastic lesion to the brain. Leave the liver cancer alone.” Further, “Doc, I refuse to stop drinking (refuse to cut off sponsors).”

“Doc, just stick with the brain and I deserve the rest.”

It’s nonsense and I think you know it. If you truly suscribe to the “Afghanistan only” camp, then you are breathtakingly myopic. You do know that al qaeda operates globally? Further, you do realize they aren’t the only threat to the U.S. and they GET THEIR ARMS/MONEY SOMEWHERE?

Finally, if you are a former marine who is now a “pacifist,” you are a perfect example why many of us were worried about voting for john kerry. Some guys who have seen too much blood, refuse to ever engage in it again. That isn’t a criticism. However, our enemies can figure this out and use it to our advantage. There is no deterrance. See his weapons systems voting/Gulf War I vote.

In a dangerous world, where brutual dictators often only understand the sword, we need someone who would at least CONSIDER using force.

JeffR

66

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Ok, let me get this straight: if your mother/sister were killed in a brutal attack, you would demand attacking al qaeda only in Afghanistan?

[/quote]

Just think this trough from the point of view of an Iraqui or Afghanian and replace al Quaeda with you know who…

67

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:

Ok, let me get this straight: if your mother/sister were killed in a brutal attack, you would demand attacking al qaeda only in Afghanistan?

Just think this trough from the point of view of an Iraqui or Afghanian and replace al Quaeda with you know who…[/quote]

orion,

Two things. Please edit that sentence.

Second, please expound upon what are you implying. I think I understand what you are geting at. However, if I am correct, this is one of your most revealing comments ever.

Please flesh it out a little.

Thanks,

JeffR

68

[quote]JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:

Ok, let me get this straight: if your mother/sister were killed in a brutal attack, you would demand attacking al qaeda only in Afghanistan?

Just think this trough from the point of view of an Iraqui or Afghanian and replace al Quaeda with you know who…

orion,

Two things. Please edit that sentence.

Second, please expound upon what are you implying. I think I understand what you are geting at. However, if I am correct, this is one of your most revealing comments ever.

Please flesh it out a little.

Thanks,

JeffR

[/quote]

If your relative gets killed you want those who did it dead, no matter where they are?

You do not really care what their motives were?

No let us work under the assumption that the average Arab feels the same?

69

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
As a former Marine I am a “born-again” pacifist. War is mostly un-necessary.[/quote]

Sounds like a nice little sentiment but it is all BS. Mankind has been at war since before the dawn of history. Even the “Ice Man” was found to be killed by an arrow.

War, poverty etc will always be with us.

This does not mean war is always the solution but you seem to have eliminated it as a possible solution thereby eliminating the chance you can think clearly on the subject.

70

[quote]BH6 wrote:
I have gotten into this argument so late that I don’t know if I can contribute much.
I haven’t felt like I have anything in common with regular American society in about 15 years. I have been a Marine since I was 18 years old. The civilian world seems so foreign to me.

I can’t relate to it at all and I can’t imagine anything more boring than living a life where I have only myself and my family to worry about with no higher purpose.

When I eventually get out of the military, I am going to grow my hair and my beard out, I’ve always wanted to do that. Not long hippie hair, but well styled long hair. Long hair has become a bit of an obsession lately, I see dudes with long hair and I tell my wife “That guy has great hair”.

She just rolls her eyes, but I’m going to grow a sweet mullet. I liked that Irish actor’s hair in Miami Vice, it has to be pretty cool having hair so long you can tie it back.
So I have that going for me. [/quote]

One of my teammates grew out his hair and beard as soon as he left the Marines. He is back to short hair and clean cut.

71

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:
orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:

Ok, let me get this straight: if your mother/sister were killed in a brutal attack, you would demand attacking al qaeda only in Afghanistan?

Just think this trough from the point of view of an Iraqui or Afghanian and replace al Quaeda with you know who…

orion,

Two things. Please edit that sentence.

Second, please expound upon what are you implying. I think I understand what you are geting at. However, if I am correct, this is one of your most revealing comments ever.

Please flesh it out a little.

Thanks,

JeffR

If your relative gets killed you want those who did it dead, no matter where they are?

You do not really care what their motives were?

No let us work under the assumption that the average Arab feels the same?[/quote]

orion,

Almost there.

So you are saying that the person who loses a family member who is killed by accident feels the same as the person whose family member was deliberatly targeted?

You tell me, what instills more hate: Sincere accidents or people laughing, strutting, and joking after having ambushed your innocent family member?

I think we have just a little more to explore to get to the crux of your issue. It might take one more post, but, you’ll say the words.

JeffR

72

[quote]JeffR wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Ok, let me get this straight: if your mother/sister were killed in a brutal attack, you would demand attacking al qaeda only in Afghanistan? bin laden the only al qaeda leader?

No. You would want to attack and destroy terrorists everywhere. If you thought terrorists were in Iraq and were being supported by Iraq, you’d be all for removing that intransigent regime.

You would be all for sending a strong message to all supporters of terrorism in any form. You would seek deterrance.

Unfortunately, your argument is hyper-partisan. It doesn’t pass the sniff test. You’ve convinced yourself that there is no reason to have attacked Iraq other than selfish, political advantage seeking. It’s all about your hatred of one man.

I know full well you’d be the number one hawk on the planet if your family was killed. It would mean far more to you than “winning” an argument with a bunch of “sheep.” It would be personal.

You’d drop the “sheep” crap and would be more interested killing and capturing terrorists.

Just open your mind to other lines of thought. See what happens.

JeffR

No, I think with my brain, not my heart. I know Iraq had nothing to do with 911. I knew it the day the attack took place. I knew the day the 2003 invasion of Iraq took place. The “terrorists” that attacked the US in 2001 were trained in Afghanistan and were apart of one man’s organization. I would insist that he be put to justice. I would not worry about stopping terrorism world-wide as it is am impossible task. We can manage terrorism better than we can “fight” it.

As a former Marine I am a “born-again” pacifist. War is mostly un-necessary.

liftus, forgive me, I don’t believe you. Let’s begin.

First of all, the heart/brain commentary was cute. A little trite for my taste, but, cute.

Now, if you had a family member killed, that would override your “pacifist” tendency. It’s like the born again christian who has their car stolen. They use foul language.

Second, you would want to pull this weed out at the root. Your commentary is like saying, “Well, I’ve got liver cancer, but, I only want to remove the metastastic lesion to the brain. Leave the liver cancer alone.” Further, “Doc, I refuse to stop drinking (refuse to cut off sponsors).”

“Doc, just stick with the brain and I deserve the rest.”

It’s nonsense and I think you know it. If you truly suscribe to the “Afghanistan only” camp, then you are breathtakingly myopic. You do know that al qaeda operates globally? Further, you do realize they aren’t the only threat to the U.S. and they GET THEIR ARMS/MONEY SOMEWHERE?

Finally, if you are a former marine who is now a “pacifist,” you are a perfect example why many of us were worried about voting for john kerry. Some guys who have seen too much blood, refuse to ever engage in it again. That isn’t a criticism. However, our enemies can figure this out and use it to our advantage. There is no deterrance. See his weapons systems voting/Gulf War I vote.

In a dangerous world, where brutual dictators often only understand the sword, we need someone who would at least CONSIDER using force.

JeffR
[/quote]

You kind of contradicted yourself here. If the terrorists were from Afghanistan, he said he WOULD approve of justice. Because they WERE NOT, precisely because they were GLOBAL, it’s more effective to manage it than fight it. It’s like if we started invading random punk teenagers homes to “fight” the “war on drugs”.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It has nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing to do with Al-quaeda.

Yes, terrorists get arms/money from governments of nations. And where do you think THOSE nations got weapons and money in the first place? Us.

We lower our dependence on oil, terrorism is hurt. We invade Iraq, we just gave terrorism the biggest recruit ion tool in the movements history.

73

[quote]JeffR wrote:

orion,

Almost there.

So you are saying that the person who loses a family member who is killed by accident feels the same as the person whose family member was deliberatly targeted?

You tell me, what instills more hate: Sincere accidents or people laughing, strutting, and joking after having ambushed your innocent family member?

I think we have just a little more to explore to get to the crux of your issue. It might take one more post, but, you’ll say the words.

JeffR

[/quote]

You are aware that what you call “accidents” usually involve a minimum of one aircraft carrier, low orbit satellites and laser guided bombs?

Plus, collateral damage is not an accident, dolus eventualis is a form of intent.

And even if targeted killing instills more hate (official Israel policy btw), you make up in numbers what you lack in precision.

You think it is less infuriating if your relatives were squashed like insects because they stood in the way instead of deliberately targeted?

74

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:

orion,

Almost there.

So you are saying that the person who loses a family member who is killed by accident feels the same as the person whose family member was deliberatly targeted?

You tell me, what instills more hate: Sincere accidents or people laughing, strutting, and joking after having ambushed your innocent family member?

I think we have just a little more to explore to get to the crux of your issue. It might take one more post, but, you’ll say the words.

JeffR

You are aware that what you call “accidents” usually involve a minimum of one aircraft carrier, low orbit satellites and laser guided bombs?

Plus, collateral damage is not an accident, dolus eventualis is a form of intent.

And even if targeted killing instills more hate (official Israel policy btw), you make up in numbers what you lack in precision.

You think it is less infuriating if your relatives were squashed like insects because they stood in the way instead of deliberately targeted?[/quote]

orion,

Again, seem to be getting closer. This may take one or two more posts.

So, would you say that Americans are morally on par with al qaeda/homicide bombers?

Would you say that family members who lost lives accidently are justified in carrying out suicide/IED attacks on Coalition forces?

JeffR

75

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
JeffR wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Ok, let me get this straight: if your mother/sister were killed in a brutal attack, you would demand attacking al qaeda only in Afghanistan? bin laden the only al qaeda leader?

No. You would want to attack and destroy terrorists everywhere. If you thought terrorists were in Iraq and were being supported by Iraq, you’d be all for removing that intransigent regime.

You would be all for sending a strong message to all supporters of terrorism in any form. You would seek deterrance.

Unfortunately, your argument is hyper-partisan. It doesn’t pass the sniff test. You’ve convinced yourself that there is no reason to have attacked Iraq other than selfish, political advantage seeking. It’s all about your hatred of one man.

I know full well you’d be the number one hawk on the planet if your family was killed. It would mean far more to you than “winning” an argument with a bunch of “sheep.” It would be personal.

You’d drop the “sheep” crap and would be more interested killing and capturing terrorists.

Just open your mind to other lines of thought. See what happens.

JeffR

No, I think with my brain, not my heart. I know Iraq had nothing to do with 911. I knew it the day the attack took place. I knew the day the 2003 invasion of Iraq took place. The “terrorists” that attacked the US in 2001 were trained in Afghanistan and were apart of one man’s organization. I would insist that he be put to justice. I would not worry about stopping terrorism world-wide as it is am impossible task. We can manage terrorism better than we can “fight” it.

As a former Marine I am a “born-again” pacifist. War is mostly un-necessary.

liftus, forgive me, I don’t believe you. Let’s begin.

First of all, the heart/brain commentary was cute. A little trite for my taste, but, cute.

Now, if you had a family member killed, that would override your “pacifist” tendency. It’s like the born again christian who has their car stolen. They use foul language.

Second, you would want to pull this weed out at the root. Your commentary is like saying, “Well, I’ve got liver cancer, but, I only want to remove the metastastic lesion to the brain. Leave the liver cancer alone.” Further, “Doc, I refuse to stop drinking (refuse to cut off sponsors).”

“Doc, just stick with the brain and I deserve the rest.”

It’s nonsense and I think you know it. If you truly suscribe to the “Afghanistan only” camp, then you are breathtakingly myopic. You do know that al qaeda operates globally? Further, you do realize they aren’t the only threat to the U.S. and they GET THEIR ARMS/MONEY SOMEWHERE?

Finally, if you are a former marine who is now a “pacifist,” you are a perfect example why many of us were worried about voting for john kerry. Some guys who have seen too much blood, refuse to ever engage in it again. That isn’t a criticism. However, our enemies can figure this out and use it to our advantage. There is no deterrance. See his weapons systems voting/Gulf War I vote.

In a dangerous world, where brutual dictators often only understand the sword, we need someone who would at least CONSIDER using force.

JeffR

You kind of contradicted yourself here. If the terrorists were from Afghanistan, he said he WOULD approve of justice. Because they WERE NOT, precisely because they were GLOBAL, it’s more effective to manage it than fight it. It’s like if we started invading random punk teenagers homes to “fight” the “war on drugs”.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It has nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing to do with Al-quaeda.

Yes, terrorists get arms/money from governments of nations. And where do you think THOSE nations got weapons and money in the first place? Us.

We lower our dependence on oil, terrorism is hurt. We invade Iraq, we just gave terrorism the biggest recruit ion tool in the movements history.

[/quote]

beowolf,

Forgive me. I mean no disrespect. However, I’ve reached my satuation point with “it’s America’s fault.” I cannot bring myself to type another rebuttal. All I’m going to say is that your post had factual errors.

If you think Iraq wasn’t a supporter of bloody terrorism including al qaeda before 2003, you would be wrong.

JeffR

76

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
…

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It has nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing to do with Al-quaeda.

…
[/quote]

Saddam used to have televised ceremonies to give $ 30,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.

When Zarqawi was wounded in Afghanistan he went to Bagdad to heal up. When he was healed Saddam gave him money and weapons.

77

[quote]JeffR wrote:

beowolf,

Forgive me. I mean no disrespect. However, I’ve reached my satuation point with “it’s America’s fault.” I cannot bring myself to type another rebuttal. All I’m going to say is that your post had factual errors.

If you think Iraq wasn’t a supporter of bloody terrorism including al qaeda before 2003, you would be wrong.

JeffR
[/quote]

Forgiven. I do not think 9/11 or terrorism is America’s fault in the slightest bit.

But a lot of other countries supported al-quaeda MUCH more than Iraq, and yet we still invaded them. We supported Iraq, should we invade ourselves now to stop the violence there?

And while Iraq supported them financially, there was MUCH less recruitment of terrorists in Iraq before we invaded. We created a whole new generation of people who absolutely loathe us.

I’m not saying its our fault. We freed them from a dictator. But we supported that dictator for a long time. Also, we’re a foreign people with a military in their country, the obvious outcome is pissed of young people.

78

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
…
I’m not saying its our fault. We freed them from a dictator. But we supported that dictator for a long time. …
[/quote]

Actually we only supported him for a very short time while he was at war with Iran because we thought Iran was a bigger threat.

When we realized how big a monster the man really was and we could not use our influence to moderate him we withdrew support.

Then we eventually kicked him of Kuwait and the deposed him.

79

[quote]JeffR wrote:

orion,

Again, seem to be getting closer. This may take one or two more posts.

So, would you say that Americans are morally on par with al qaeda/homicide bombers?
[/quote]

All Americans? No.

Some of them? Definitely.

I do not think they would even have to have lost a relative.

If a foreign tank rolled down the streets of Vienna I?d consider it fair game.

What you probably do not get is that this is not a discussion on who is morally superior.

As you said, if someone killes your relatives you start to see things in a more us-vs-them kind of way.

So even if I agreed with you that bombs that fall out of US planes are the good kind of bombs whereas IEDs are the bad ones, your policies still creates an army of terrorists.

600000 people have how many relatives?

Feel like researching what “Black Widows” are and how they relate to the war in Chechnya?

80

[quote]PGJ wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
hedo wrote:
What action by an enemy would constitute a threat to “American Independence” using the parameters
you set forth above? What “things” are worth fighting for from your perspective? Just curious?

An amphibious, naval, and or air attack by a group larger than 1/2 a platoon…a Perl Harbor type situation. When the values and lives of my country are directly threatened. Not becasue a retarded president wants to exact revenge on a country that had nothing to do with our situation.

That is truly frightening. You’d wait until the enemy masses it’s forces and actually launches an attack on it’s own terms before you would do anything about it. That is liberal national defense policy in a nut-shell. Stupidity. I guess we have to wait for a “Red Dawn” scenario before you would justify war. Thank God we have a President that has a policy of preemtive strike. Hit them before they even get close to us.

[/quote]

This would never happen becasue we are constantly observing the possibilities of this kind of attact. War is unnecessary unless we are directly attacked.

Your president is an idiot and the last person I would trust with a military. He has wasted so much blood as it is. Wake up!

Wolverines!