[quote]JaX Un wrote:
it was quite obvious A-rod was taking some sort of gear a few years ago. him Gagne, kenvin brown, barry bonds, they all got waaaay too big waaaay to fast considering they play baseball intensely 6 months of the year[/quote]
Sarcasm?
[quote]ProwlCat wrote:
Nice stats. As they say, they’re for losers. Overall, according to stats, A-Rod is better. Anyone can see that. Only problem is that A-Rod’s teams have not won more games.[/quote]
Staff ERA of the 2003 Texas Rangers: 5.67
Staff ERA of the 2003 New York Yankees: 4.02
But yeah, ARod should’ve traded John Thomson and Ismael Valdez for Roger Clemens and Mike Mussina. Come on now, the Rangers got like 26 starts out of Colby Lewis and his 7.30(!) ERA.
[quote]
You’ve even projected how many more wins a year 25 runs are worth. That’s totally impossible but…whatever. [/quote]
Actually, generally 10 runs (actually a little less, but 10 is a good round) tends to be worth about a win. Try it sometimes, Win% = RS^2/(RA^2+RS^@) It’s fairly consistent from year to year. Not perfect, but not a bad estimation.
[quote]
How many three run homers did A-Rod hit with his team up 6 or down 8? [/quote]
Probably more than Jeter, just like he does when the game is tied. It’s funny, because there is a stat for that, that measures “clutch” hitting. It’s called WPA or “Win Probability Added.” Basically, historically, a team has a certain percentage of times they will win the game if they are up, for example, 4-3 with 1 out in the bottom of the 8th. Then after that at bat, they might have a runner on base (increased probability of winning), or he might have ended the inning with a double play (decreased probability). Add all the changes up over the course of the season and you have a statistic that (crudely) takes the content of the game into consideration. No surprise last year to see Manny at number 1.
ARod has been better than Jeter 4 out of the last 5 years, the exception being Jeter’s phenomenal 2006 season. But that’s just because better hitters hit better in the clutch than not as good hitters.
[quote]
You don’t see many tough pitches in those situations. Can you give me A-Rod’s BA on tough pitches? Sliders, and cutters on his hands? Does he foul that ball off or swing and miss? I know I’ve seen Jeter foul tough pitches off more than almost any hitter of the past 10 years. He may not get on base, but he allows his team to see pitches, pitch sequence, and that matters. [/quote]
Last year Derek Jeter saw 2492 pitches on 668 plate appearances, an average of 3.73 per plate appearance.
ARod saw 2318 on 594 PA, an average on 3.90. So yeah, ARod actually allows his team to see more pitches than Jeter.
I can’t give you his BA on “tough pitches”, just like you can’t honestly tell me that Jeter is a better hitter of “tough pitches” because of like… 4 at bats that you remember.
I can tell you that ARod swung at less balls out of the zone (22.9% to 23.7%) than Jeter, hits about the same amount of line drives (18.1% to 17.9%) and hits for much greater power (22% of his outfield flies were home runs compared to 9% for Jeter). Jeter does have better contact skills (84.8% contact rate to 74.8% for ARod), but looking at the overall picture, ARods slightly better plate discipline and far superior power make him a better hitter.
I can’t tell you their batting averages on these pitches (well I could probably, but it would take more work than I’m willing to do), but Jeter gets thrown a fastball 65.5% of the time, compared to 59.8% of the time for ARod. Take that for what you will.
Which is precisely why they don’t get put in charge of $100 million dollar payrolls.
I already showed you that ARod sees more pitches per plate appearance than Jeter. I agree that Jeter makes better contact and he strikes out less than Rodriguez. However, a groundball out is not MUCH better than a strikeout. It is better, but only slightly so. However, 44% of ARod hits went for extra bases last year, compared to 22% for Jeter. So yes, Jeter’s contact skills are great, but they just can’t compensate for ARods way superior power. The grounder to move the runner over is nice, but the double off the wall to drive him home is even better.
[quote]
You won’t get that no matter how hard you try 'cause you got a hard-on for stats.[/quote]
Oh, I get it. I play a college sport at a pretty high level and may pursue it professionally (albeit probably at the very highest levels) after I graduate. I’m not saying you shouldn’t use subjective opinions. But trying to claim that Jeter is a more valuable player RIGHT NOW than ARod because you have a hard-on for his “intangibles” is equally retarded.
If you want a few more stats that I’m sure you will find meaningless:
With a full count:
ARod: .247/.505/.463 (.967)
Jeter: .262/.514/.398 (.911)
Two strikes:
ARod: .223/.309/.392 (.702)
Jeter: .231/.323/.327 (.651)
Runners in Scoring Position:
ARod: .303/.404/.553 (.957)
Jeter:. .311/.405/.434 (.838)
Bases Loaded:
ARod: .347/.404/.718 (1.121!!) including 17 grand slams
Jeter: .362/.417/.447 (.864), 1 grand slam
2 outs, RISP:
ARod: .274/.404/.486 (.889)
Jeter: .317/.417/.449 (.866)
Tie Game:
ARod: .299/.397/.574 (.971)
Jeter: .318/.383/.470 (.853)
Extra Innings:
ARod: .303/.422/.578 (1.000) including 7 home runs!
Jeter: .339/.461/.400 (.861), 1 home run
I could keep going, but it’s getting ridiculous.
Oh comon people.
Pull your heads out of the sand.
Almost every athlete in modern times that you know and idolize has used gear or is using gear as we speak.
All Olympians most professional athletes that aren’t in something like tennis., its just the nature of the game, if your the only one not juicing you natural talent means jackshit against someone else with just a little bit less talent and a chemical advantage.
When you life is sports you juice.
A-roids.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
A-roids.[/quote]
A-Bombs.
Im witty-er.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
ProwlCat wrote:
Nice stats. As they say, they’re for losers. Overall, according to stats, A-Rod is better. Anyone can see that. Only problem is that A-Rod’s teams have not won more games.
Staff ERA of the 2003 Texas Rangers: 5.67
Staff ERA of the 2003 New York Yankees: 4.02
But yeah, ARod should’ve traded John Thomson and Ismael Valdez for Roger Clemens and Mike Mussina. Come on now, the Rangers got like 26 starts out of Colby Lewis and his 7.30(!) ERA.
You’ve even projected how many more wins a year 25 runs are worth. That’s totally impossible but…whatever.
Actually, generally 10 runs (actually a little less, but 10 is a good round) tends to be worth about a win. Try it sometimes, Win% = RS^2/(RA^2+RS^@) It’s fairly consistent from year to year. Not perfect, but not a bad estimation.
How many three run homers did A-Rod hit with his team up 6 or down 8?
Probably more than Jeter, just like he does when the game is tied. It’s funny, because there is a stat for that, that measures “clutch” hitting. It’s called WPA or “Win Probability Added.” Basically, historically, a team has a certain percentage of times they will win the game if they are up, for example, 4-3 with 1 out in the bottom of the 8th. Then after that at bat, they might have a runner on base (increased probability of winning), or he might have ended the inning with a double play (decreased probability). Add all the changes up over the course of the season and you have a statistic that (crudely) takes the content of the game into consideration. No surprise last year to see Manny at number 1.
ARod has been better than Jeter 4 out of the last 5 years, the exception being Jeter’s phenomenal 2006 season. But that’s just because better hitters hit better in the clutch than not as good hitters.
You don’t see many tough pitches in those situations. Can you give me A-Rod’s BA on tough pitches? Sliders, and cutters on his hands? Does he foul that ball off or swing and miss? I know I’ve seen Jeter foul tough pitches off more than almost any hitter of the past 10 years. He may not get on base, but he allows his team to see pitches, pitch sequence, and that matters.
Last year Derek Jeter saw 2492 pitches on 668 plate appearances, an average of 3.73 per plate appearance.
ARod saw 2318 on 594 PA, an average on 3.90. So yeah, ARod actually allows his team to see more pitches than Jeter.
I can’t give you his BA on “tough pitches”, just like you can’t honestly tell me that Jeter is a better hitter of “tough pitches” because of like… 4 at bats that you remember.
I can tell you that ARod swung at less balls out of the zone (22.9% to 23.7%) than Jeter, hits about the same amount of line drives (18.1% to 17.9%) and hits for much greater power (22% of his outfield flies were home runs compared to 9% for Jeter). Jeter does have better contact skills (84.8% contact rate to 74.8% for ARod), but looking at the overall picture, ARods slightly better plate discipline and far superior power make him a better hitter.
I can’t tell you their batting averages on these pitches (well I could probably, but it would take more work than I’m willing to do), but Jeter gets thrown a fastball 65.5% of the time, compared to 59.8% of the time for ARod. Take that for what you will.
But you need to realize that, to the athletes on the field, it’s not a players lifetime stats or current stats that matter. It’s who their eyeballs and experience tell them is the better player.
Which is precisely why they don’t get put in charge of $100 million dollar payrolls.
You do understand that giving away an at-bat has NOTHING to do with if you got a hit or not, right? Tell me you understand that? You do know that seeing pitches, fouling balls back and putting the ball in play consitutes a ‘good’ AB. Striking out on three fastballs is NOT a good AB. Both count the same as far as on-base percentage, though. So, again, your stat means nothing.
I already showed you that ARod sees more pitches per plate appearance than Jeter. I agree that Jeter makes better contact and he strikes out less than Rodriguez. However, a groundball out is not MUCH better than a strikeout. It is better, but only slightly so. However, 44% of ARod hits went for extra bases last year, compared to 22% for Jeter. So yes, Jeter’s contact skills are great, but they just can’t compensate for ARods way superior power. The grounder to move the runner over is nice, but the double off the wall to drive him home is even better.
You won’t get that no matter how hard you try 'cause you got a hard-on for stats.
Oh, I get it. I play a college sport at a pretty high level and may pursue it professionally (albeit probably at the very highest levels) after I graduate. I’m not saying you shouldn’t use subjective opinions. But trying to claim that Jeter is a more valuable player RIGHT NOW than ARod because you have a hard-on for his “intangibles” is equally retarded.
[/quote]
Well…I hate to say this…but…I think you’re right. I’m not going to keep arguing for the sake of arguing. You are persuading me. The only thing that I have left to argue is that Jeter seems to me (and this is the eyeball test again) to be in every play. Meaning he not only does not give away ABs but he does not give away pitches. He goes where he should go with the ball…you play ball…so you know what I’m talking about. Seems pitchers get him out, he does not get himself out. A-Rod is more physically gifted, for certain. He makes plays on defense that Jeter can’t make. Has a better arm. Hits with more power, as good for average, drives in runs, scores.
I know that I have two friends who played with and against A-Rod in MLB (one w/ Texas during the soon to be dubbed ‘Roid Years’). And they did not feel that A-Rod was ever the best player on his team in terms of helping the team win. Now, they are both pitchers, so I don’t know how that colors it. Both remarked that he can be gotten out with certain pitches and that he presses in key situations. Maybe they are just repeating things they’ve heard around the game. Both remarked that Jeter was tough to pitch to because he waited so long on pitches and would ‘foul a ball out of the catcher’s mitt’. Both have always told me - and I know this from catching in HS and college - that pitchers hate throwing a lot of pitches and seeing good pitches spoiled. Pitchers being not all that bright in most cases, and having huge egos, more times than not, will give in, throw a fastball or get to much of the plate…just because they are sick of the AB.
Anyway, fun debate. You win. You win. You win! I’ve always been an A-Rod fan. I have no issue with him taking steroids. Hope he keeps kicking ass.
[quote]Westclock wrote:
Oh comon people.
Pull your heads out of the sand.
Almost every athlete in modern times that you know and idolize has used gear or is using gear as we speak.
All Olympians most professional athletes that aren’t in something like tennis., its just the nature of the game, if your the only one not juicing you natural talent means jackshit against someone else with just a little bit less talent and a chemical advantage.
When you life is sports you juice.[/quote]
so u think that every prof athlete of most at least use roids in not just then mlb but the nfl,nhl,nba…I dont think so it seems to me its just baseball
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Hasn’t Jeter been on the same teams as “loser” ARod over the past few years?
Does Jeter make his pitchers pitch better? Does he help the other guys bat better?
2004 ALCS
Jeter: .200/.333/.233
ARod: .258/.378/.516
So basically, if Jeter hadn’t choked so hard, ARod would probably have a World Series ring and he’d be a winner too. What else should ARod have done, stepped in the batter’s box and taken some ABs for Jeter?
You can take a lineup of:
C: Carlos Ruiz
1B: Kevin Youkilis
2B: Tad Iguchi
3B: Pedro Feliz
SS: David Eckstein
OF: Scott Podsednik
OF: Coco Crisp
OF: Juan Encarnacion
who all have World Series rings
And I’ll take take:
C: Joe Mauer
1B: Mark Teixeira
2B: Rickie Weeks
3B: Aramis Ramirez
SS: Hanley Ramirez
OF: Carlos Lee
OF: Josh Hamilton
OF: Nick Markakis
All of whom, if memory serves me correctly, have not made it past the first round of the playoffs and my team will beat yours a billion to one.
“Team Success” is the dumbest argument ever in baseball, a sport which is almost entirely individual. I don’t even like ARod, I just can’t stand the Jeter love-affair.[/quote]
Great post up until you mentioned taking Rickie Weeks at 2B.
Weeks is a bust.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
So I will take ARod, and my teams will win more games. Unless of course, you can provide evidence that the reason Mariano Rivera has been so damn good is because before every pitch he looked into the beautiful face of one Derek Sanderson Jeter and that give extra life to his cutter.
[/quote]
Outstanding… This more than makes up for the Rickie Weeks gaffe.
[quote]JaX Un wrote:
I was just saying he had something in common with brown, gagne and bonds, they all got huge out of nowhere and i highly doubt someone could pack on that much muscle while playing baseball for 6 months out of the year, but what the hell do i know?[/quote]
Huge???
I just don’t get why everyone is getting their undies in bundle over this. I for one, think all pro sports players should be encouraged to use PEDs. When I go to a sporting event, I want to be entertained. I want to see roided up freaks hitting each other or blasting balls 500+ out of the park.
I actually think I like A-Rod more now! haha
i love when people get exposed as being on steroids. i hope every single athletic hero out there tests positive and gets exposed. awwwwww poor baby, you dont wike when ppl use? its kinda like when you find out the Santa Clause isnt real but its way better cause it only bothers the people who think steroids are the most evil thing on the planet.
but the downside is also that the more people who get caught doing steroids the more this steroid stuff becomes like a witch hunt and all of a sudden anyone whos accused of using is persecuted against. people say i use, and its like a compliment because it means im noticeably big but at the same time i know that if youre assumed to take steroids people will think other bad things about you cause i swear some people are like vultures looking for any little thing they can try and pick you apart about, usually people who feel bad about themselves to start with.
which all boils down to one thing, the more you know about it the better off everyone is.
p.s. when skinny people accuse me of taking steroids cause im big im going to say they must have AIDS cause theyre skinny.
By the way, where are the names of the 103 other guys?
Funny how only A-Rod name gets out.
To be honest, I could care less if he used them for a few years. He got caught and instead of denying it, he came clean. That is more than what most players do.
I respect the guy before, I still have respect for him now.
This is coming from a Red Sox fan.
[quote]HK24719 wrote:
JaX Un wrote:
I was just saying he had something in common with brown, gagne and bonds, they all got huge out of nowhere and i highly doubt someone could pack on that much muscle while playing baseball for 6 months out of the year, but what the hell do i know?
Huge???[/quote]
I dont’ get the huge comment, from his stats in the beginning and to now, I think he has only gained 15 pounds of muscle. That isn’t a lot in the years he has played.
He doesn’t suck for using gear; he sucks for being a pussy.
f*cking yankee bitch.
[quote]Polish Rifle wrote:
Great post up until you mentioned taking Rickie Weeks at 2B.
Weeks is a bust.
[/quote]
I was just going off the top of my head, probably should’ve gone Brian Roberts or maybe Brandon Phillips. Maybe I’ll take J.J. Hardy and play him at second.
Weeks has been disappointing but I wouldn’t call him a bust. Last year his batting average slipped but he can still get on base and has a little bit of pop so maybe there is hope for him.
[quote]B rocK wrote:
He doesn’t suck for using gear; he sucks for being a pussy.
f*cking yankee bitch.[/quote]
I agree. I have 100% hatred for him because he’s a yankee. This doesn’t change that in any way.
[quote]crod266 wrote:
so u think that every prof athlete of most at least use roids in not just then mlb but the nfl,nhl,nba…I dont think so it seems to me its just baseball[/quote]
All Olympians, most prof athletes. imo
Just think about all the kids in high school doing oral cycles.
They could do one cycle of test, put on 20 pounds of muscle, and keep it. They dont have to use continuously to see the benefits.
Most professional athletes have used before, although I would say many are not using now.
Alot of guys use peptides and HGH just for joint repair.
They dont mean to cheat, they just need their knees and shoulders to work or they lose everything.
I would say a good majority aren’t using the steroids for strength, most are using them for recovery and healing.
idk, he didnt even look like he was on. i mean, hes not a skinny dude but he doesnt look like hes juicing either, so id say he coulda done exactly the same w/ a decent training program.
if youre going to use steroids at least look like you use em.