Alan Aragon Looks Like a Smug Prick

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
The thing that irks me about the forums he usually posts on is that they absolutely won’t believe something unless it’s on PubMed. It’s like their bible.
[/quote]

Not sure Bible is the right comparison since PubMed is all about peer-reviewed (rather than one author’s opinion) science. Basically, if it’s on PubMed then it’s been demonstrated and tested in more than one person, by someone who has set up control groups and can probably explain the biological mechanism at work.

If it’s one person (bodybuilder or trainer) saying it works, it’s an anecdote. It might be true, but there are no controls, too small a sample size and probably no explanation for why it works.

If you have to pick sides then the side that has lots of data and a scientific explanation is probably the better bet. Where there are gaping holes in knowledge, you can tentatively accept anecdotes in lieu of something more comprehensive, of course.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
There is an interesting aspect of human psychology where people tend to be highly suspicious of others doing what they themselves do.[/quote]

True. I also recall it being said that you particularly dislike in others certain characteristics that are prevalent in yourself but are maybe not aware of. Or something like that; it made more sense when I read it.

BBB[/quote]

Yes: if I’d made a fuller explanation I’d have included that many tend to be highly suspicious of others doing not only what they themselves in fact do, but what they would themselves do if they were in the same position.

This may result from a general method of modeling expected behavior of others based on the model most clearly known, namely oneself.

Of course, that is often completely invalid. But that doesn’t stop people from doing it.

[quote]Mattlebee wrote:

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
The thing that irks me about the forums he usually posts on is that they absolutely won’t believe something unless it’s on PubMed. It’s like their bible.
[/quote]

Not sure Bible is the right comparison since PubMed is all about peer-reviewed (rather than one author’s opinion) science. Basically, if it’s on PubMed then it’s been demonstrated and tested in more than one person, by someone who has set up control groups and can probably explain the biological mechanism at work.

If it’s one person (bodybuilder or trainer) saying it works, it’s an anecdote. It might be true, but there are no controls, too small a sample size and probably no explanation for why it works.

If you have to pick sides then the side that has lots of data and a scientific explanation is probably the better bet. Where there are gaping holes in knowledge, you can tentatively accept anecdotes in lieu of something more comprehensive, of course.[/quote]

Problems here are that non-scientists have an unfortunate tendency to assume that findings under a given circumstance – the actual study of the study – “must” carry over or probably do to entirely different circumstances, or assume that measured outcomes, e.g. post-exercise protein syntheiss, “must” or probablhy do carry over to what is of actual interest, such as acquisition of strength and size.

The conclusions these abstracts-debaters come to generally in no way necessarily follow from what they cite.

Very simply, pretty much anyone interested in gaining strength and size would do better to get a couple of Weider books from the 70s and follow them than to base their information on forums specializing in debating Pubmed abstracts. Really.

No matter that the first is “anecdotal” and the second “scientific.”

What is not scientific is ASSuming that the specific outcomes measured under the specific circumstances studied in fact carry over to the actual circumstances that will be involved and towards the actual long term goals in mind. But it feels scientific to those doing it, I guess.

[quote]Mattlebee wrote:

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
The thing that irks me about the forums he usually posts on is that they absolutely won’t believe something unless it’s on PubMed. It’s like their bible.
[/quote]

Not sure Bible is the right comparison since PubMed is all about peer-reviewed (rather than one author’s opinion) science. Basically, if it’s on PubMed then it’s been demonstrated and tested in more than one person, by someone who has set up control groups and can probably explain the biological mechanism at work.

If it’s one person (bodybuilder or trainer) saying it works, it’s an anecdote. It might be true, but there are no controls, too small a sample size and probably no explanation for why it works.

If you have to pick sides then the side that has lots of data and a scientific explanation is probably the better bet. Where there are gaping holes in knowledge, you can tentatively accept anecdotes in lieu of something more comprehensive, of course.[/quote]

Sure picking the side of reason is the correct choice, but ask yourself who is on the side of reason. Science is a good thing as is skepticism, or skepsis, which means something along the lines of “rational doubt and probing.” It’s necessary and healthy to a certain extent, but one extreme of it can be as dangerous as would be a complete belief in the irrational.

The intensity of a person’s dogmatism though and their seeming inability to connect with sound reasoning including good science and anecdotal evidence as well, makes you really question the person’s psychology.

Where skeptics see the automatic dismissal of claims that don’t fit within the rigid context of their scientific beliefs, even when made by experts and based on some solid theories (albeit different then their own), as a necessary and healthy reaction, the skeptic could be dismissing valid claims due to their dogmatic and intolerant stance indicating a deep emotional commitment to their views.

Skepticism can easily be taken too far to the point that a person identifies with an opposing position striving to downplay, misrepresent or simply ignore evidence that goes against what they believe in.

A debunking agenda (see Aragons writings and attacks on things like Biotest) is a classic sign of a skeptic that’s taken it too far. A scientific inclination that’s been warped to the point that it fires an intense dogmatism supporting only a commitment to a rigid view point, is the negative side of skepticism. Taken to these extremes, skepticism is no longer about science and more about dogmatism.

I will point out that that you also have to watch out for a level of acceptance that is not grounded in any level of science. It’s human nature to be a follower, so you must be aware of the triggers that cause the simple human nature of liking and disliking something/others. A great example is a baby goose will love and follow the first creature that is nice to it, whether it’s its mother or a human being.

A consequence of these tendencies is that man will ignore faults of the object of their affection, favor people/products associated with that object, and distort facts to facilitate that love. Hence Aragon’s attacks of Biotest and these forums. Conversely, man will ignore virtues in the object of his dislike, dislike people/products associated with that object, and distort facts to facilitate hatred, as is the case with Aragon and as fueled by his skeptic dogmatism.

So be careful when you side with science.

BT

[quote]Mattlebee wrote:

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
The thing that irks me about the forums he usually posts on is that they absolutely won’t believe something unless it’s on PubMed. It’s like their bible.
[/quote]

Not sure Bible is the right comparison since PubMed is all about peer-reviewed (rather than one author’s opinion) science. Basically, if it’s on PubMed then it’s been demonstrated and tested in more than one person, by someone who has set up control groups and can probably explain the biological mechanism at work.

If it’s one person (bodybuilder or trainer) saying it works, it’s an anecdote. It might be true, but there are no controls, too small a sample size and probably no explanation for why it works.

If you have to pick sides then the side that has lots of data and a scientific explanation is probably the better bet. Where there are gaping holes in knowledge, you can tentatively accept anecdotes in lieu of something more comprehensive, of course.[/quote]

The people I was referring to seem to only accept information from Pubmed as the end all, be all source of infinite knowledge. They also claim that we do the same thing here at T-Nation.
I have always found the best strategy is to read as much as humanly possible, try as much as humanly possible and learn from that. They say experience is the best teacher and I have to agree. I’ve read some stuff on Pubmed that just makes me laugh because of the tests they perform.

This is just one example of what I am talking about when I say that some of the research is just asinine.

Plenty of people out there have made outstanding progress by getting in the gym and putting in work. Not by spending hours a day sifting through peer-reviewed journals. Reviewers tend to be especially critical of conclusions that contradict their own views, and lenient towards those that accord with them.

Aragorn is a great researcher in my opinion. It is nice to have someone constantly sifting through some of the new research and condensing the useful bits. I think the hater attitude that started a thread like this just kinda validates his attitude towards this board if he truly feels that way.

I read his opinion piece on the Anaconda protocol and unless you are blinded by unwavering faith in all things Biotest you have to at least take a somewhat critical eye to it all. I have found a ton of great, relevant information on these boards and this site, love the articles for the most part and appreciate what TC, Tim and the team are doing. Doesn’t mean I can’t question or have a critical eye to information being put out.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Aragorn is a great researcher in my opinion. It is nice to have someone constantly sifting through some of the new research and condensing the useful bits. I think the hater attitude that started a thread like this just kinda validates his attitude towards this board if he truly feels that way.

I read his opinion piece on the Anaconda protocol and unless you are blinded by unwavering faith in all things Biotest you have to at least take a somewhat critical eye to it all. I have found a ton of great, relevant information on these boards and this site, love the articles for the most part and appreciate what TC, Tim and the team are doing. Doesn’t mean I can’t question or have a critical eye to information being put out.[/quote]

Re-read my last post. I started it with the appearance of a hater attitude for a reason. I really don’t have a hater attitude toward the guy, and in fact I appreciate his level of commitment to the research, but I just think his critical eye is cast a bit too rigid. Bill’s posts and others like the Dave Tate/Matt Kroc video address the matter pretty well.