Age Old Question: Size First or Cut First?

Training Bodybuilding
161

[quote]Professor X wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
wirewound wrote:
I don’t have photos, but I gained the most lean weight I’ve ever gained after switching to a mostly-compound lift schedule with a push/pull split. Presumably it’s because I hit each part of the split about twice a week.

As a beginner I gained almost 50lbs of lean muscle over a summer. All I had access to was a bench and some weights. All we did was bench press, curls, and skull crushers. That was the best gain in lean mass I’ve ever made. Was it the right way to do it? Well I wouldn’t do it that way now but it worked. To this day my chest and arms are my strong points even though I work everything.

It took advantage of a couple of a couple of really good scenerios. One I had never really trained so there was a lot of good newbie gains to be had, and two I was a teenager and my natural test levels were high. Now imagine if I had spent that first summer working every muscle group equally.

Now after that summer I started working out at a gym, and watched what the bigger guys did, and copied it. Compound and isolation movements. The gains were obviously not as fast but my shape started to change. I started to get the rounded shoulders and full muscles. I looked different than the football players doing the squats bench and deadlifts.

This was all about 22 years ago so we didn’t have digital cameras back then :slight_smile:

Many beginners believe that making HUGE gains in muscle mass isn’t possible even as beginners. They have read articles not even intended for them stating some cut off of “1-2lbs a month” so they avoid even attempting to gain more than that.

You can’t even monitor a gain of 1 fucking pound a month. Your body fluctuates in weight everyday by 3-5lbs over the course of 24 hours. That means if 3 months later you are only 3lbs heavier, you may not have gained SHIT. In fact, you may have actually LOST lean body mass.

That is why people shoot for more weight gain than that if the goal is significant muscle growth.[/quote]

I’ve gained about 20 pounds since April 1st (before that was a maintenance period for tax season). Some people would say that is entirely too fast, but I’m still at ABOUT the same bf % as I was when I started, give or take a % point or so.

And while I haven’t been lifting for 10 years, it’s not like I just started yesterday either. This 1-2 pounds a month should be used for ADVANCED trainers, not even intermediate trainers.

162

[quote]Professor X wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
wirewound wrote:
I don’t have photos, but I gained the most lean weight I’ve ever gained after switching to a mostly-compound lift schedule with a push/pull split. Presumably it’s because I hit each part of the split about twice a week.

As a beginner I gained almost 50lbs of lean muscle over a summer. All I had access to was a bench and some weights. All we did was bench press, curls, and skull crushers. That was the best gain in lean mass I’ve ever made. Was it the right way to do it? Well I wouldn’t do it that way now but it worked. To this day my chest and arms are my strong points even though I work everything.

It took advantage of a couple of a couple of really good scenerios. One I had never really trained so there was a lot of good newbie gains to be had, and two I was a teenager and my natural test levels were high. Now imagine if I had spent that first summer working every muscle group equally.

Now after that summer I started working out at a gym, and watched what the bigger guys did, and copied it. Compound and isolation movements. The gains were obviously not as fast but my shape started to change. I started to get the rounded shoulders and full muscles. I looked different than the football players doing the squats bench and deadlifts.

This was all about 22 years ago so we didn’t have digital cameras back then :slight_smile:

Many beginners believe that making HUGE gains in muscle mass isn’t possible even as beginners. They have read articles not even intended for them stating some cut off of “1-2lbs a month” so they avoid even attempting to gain more than that.

You can’t even monitor a gain of 1 fucking pound a month. Your body fluctuates in weight everyday by 3-5lbs over the course of 24 hours. That means if 3 months later you are only 3lbs heavier, you may not have gained SHIT. In fact, you may have actually LOST lean body mass.

That is why people shoot for more weight gain than that if the goal is significant muscle growth.[/quote]

So what is the best barometer for making sure you are eating enough?

Is the mirror and improvements in the gym enough? Is it recommended to step on a scale any more than just to make sure the weight is going up?

163

[quote]Der Candy wrote:

So what is the best barometer for making sure you are eating enough?[/quote]

Controlled weight gain and strength gains. The recommendation has historically been about 3-5lbs a month as a general reference. the problem with that, however, is that recently, beginners are showing they can’t think outside the box. If they read “3-5lbs”, they suddenly believe that NO ONE can gain more than that without becoming obese.

When gaining, I make sure the scale weight is going UP. If I put on a little too much body fat, I scale back the calories a little. That’s it. It is not complicated.

[quote]

Is the mirror and improvements in the gym enough? Is it recommended to step on a scale any more than just to make sure the weight is going up?[/quote]

Yes. The mirror is often enough for ADVANCED lifters because they have a better understanding of their own bodies. I know how much food I generally need to eat everyday to remain at about the same body weight.

Beginners SHOULD rely on the scale, the mirror, and how much weight they can lift.

They should NOT be worried about their specific body fat percentage number and they shouldn’t have to pull out a scientific calculator just to understand if they are making progress.

164

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Many beginners believe that making HUGE gains in muscle mass isn’t possible even as beginners.[/quote]

That is a huge mistake for a beginner, especially if they are in their teens early twenties when their natural test levels are high. You only get one chance at those beginner gains, so make the most out of it. I wish I had known then what I know now and would have trained harder, ate better, and slept more.

165

[quote] JJ wrote:
Welcome. It is the phase that you will stay in for the majority of your training life - possibly all of it depending on how serious you actually get.

I first began training with weights at 18, 10 years ago and i first began researching seriously at 20 8 years ago… i am an intermediate and shall be for some time yet!

JJ[/quote]

How do you define these labels? Or better yet, why do you define these labels? Not trying to be an ass here, but it sort of seems like a way to hold yourself back.

166

[quote]Der Candy wrote:
So what is the best barometer for making sure you are eating enough?
[/quote]

This might sound corny, but I use (in addition to the mirror, pics, and cloth tape) “index clothes”.

I have 2 favorite shirts and a best fitting pair of pants. I know how they feel and I have pics of myself in them.

I just started upping my calories a couple hundred at a time every few days or per week. The clothes don’t change and they don’t lie. The tape doesn’t lie either. You can see what you want in the mirror but generally you (well, I) can see chances in vascularity or flabbiness. The pics help, too.

I go neurotic tracking my weight, so I do it once every few weeks. I figure any water fluctuations will be there at any time so I track my weight in plus/minus 5#.

Frankly, I don’t even really care how much I weigh, because my index clothes-- a little tighter in the chest/arms these days :wink: tell me where I’m going.

Or, maybe I’m just getting older and doing everything I can to make things ‘simpler’.

167

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Many beginners believe that making HUGE gains in muscle mass isn’t possible even as beginners.

That is a huge mistake for a beginner, especially if they are in their teens early twenties when their natural test levels are high. You only get one chance at those beginner gains, so make the most out of it. I wish I had known then what I know now and would have trained harder, ate better, and slept more.

[/quote]

I’ve been saying just that on this board for nearly a decade and they are just now beginning to listen…a little.

Meanwhile, over those same years, very few people on this site have actually made impressive progress in terms of GAINING muscle.

All we see are some people who lost body fat. None of the people repeating articles word for word look like they could be on stage or damn close it.

168

I have not been training very long. If I had to give a true number, I would say 1 and a half years ‘seriously’.

I have done TBT style training for a cumulated 12 months or so. I have also done two 6wk EDT programs, 6 months of legs/push/pull, 12 weeks of WS4SB 1, and now I have modified WS4SB 1 into a 4 day upper/lower split.

Here is my honest opinion for what its worth:

TBT is not enough to grow. Its enough to get in shape starting out, or to gain some strength. For one thing, TBT is mostly 3 days a week, doing 4-6 compound movements that leave you with no energy at the end to do anything else. Every ‘bulk’ I have went on has led to gains, but with more fat than desired, and I am not even talking about an all out bulk, or a completely dirty bulk. I don’t think 3 days a week is frequent enough. I do not think 3 days a week allows you to get in enough volume for body parts. I do not think 3 days a week allows you to hit every body part you want either.

I believe my back, traps, and legs have the best development. Everything else: not so much. My arms look small, my shoulders don’t look round, or capped, or developed. This is even after doing heavy weighted dips, chins, and oh presses.

One thing is for sure, in May I switched to the 4 day upper/lower. I also upped my carb intake quite a bit. Results: +8lbs, with only a .7% increase in bf (according to the handheld device at the gym).

While I think TBT is a good fitness program, I don’t think its really the route to go if you want to make big gains.

EDIT: As I had said, my personal opinion/experience/not conclusive for everyone.

169

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

This might sound corny, but I use (in addition to the mirror, pics, and cloth tape) “index clothes”.

I have 2 favorite shirts and a best fitting pair of pants. I know how they feel and I have pics of myself in them.

[/quote]

It’s not my “go to” method for determining if I’m getting bigger, but it is undeniable that you can feel the shirt tightening around your neck, see your chest pushing the material out a little further, and see that your traps/shoulder growth has caused the armline to rise to mid-bicep instead of elbow.

170

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:

And no offense, you seem like a good guy who’s trying to help people, but what do you base your opnions on what beginers should and shouldn’t do? You always seem to post a lot of long technical post.

[/quote]

Yeah, I write way too much. But I don’t think this thread is about the OP anymore.

I think total beginners should do the Rippetoe program in starting strength or the real Bill Starr 5X5 program no matter what their goals are. This program has no isolation exercises to speak of. That will take them to where they can bench and power clean their bodyweight. Once they reach those basic numbers, they can start training with goals specific to sports, bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, or whatever they want to do.

So, until you can Bench and Clean your bodyweight, you don’t need to be doing isolation exercises. And you definatly don’t need to be resting a muscle group for 4-6 days before you train it again.

171

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:

And no offense, you seem like a good guy who’s trying to help people, but what do you base your opnions on what beginers should and shouldn’t do? You always seem to post a lot of long technical post.

Yeah, I write way too much. But I don’t think this thread is about the OP anymore.

I think total beginners should do the Rippetoe program in starting strength or the real Bill Starr 5X5 program no matter what their goals are. This program has no isolation exercises to speak of. That will take them to where they can bench and power clean their bodyweight. Once they reach those basic numbers, they can start training with goals specific to sports, bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, or whatever they want to do. [/quote]

Again, let me ask, are you thinking that they WON’T gain muscle by doing a body part split? You think that someone has to be able to bench press their arbitrary body weight before they ever try something like that?

That sounds like just enough time for the aspects of the muscles you are ignoring to become your lagging body parts.

It is just enough time to realize your arms and shoulders are now massively smaller than everything else.

This is bodybuilding, not random strength training with no regard for the muscles you are considering as less than important.

Also, I am sure the guy you are responding to was wondering how developed you are.

172

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:

And no offense, you seem like a good guy who’s trying to help people, but what do you base your opnions on what beginers should and shouldn’t do? You always seem to post a lot of long technical post.

Yeah, I write way too much. But I don’t think this thread is about the OP anymore.

I think total beginners should do the Rippetoe program in starting strength or the real Bill Starr 5X5 program no matter what their goals are. This program has no isolation exercises to speak of. That will take them to where they can bench and power clean their bodyweight. Once they reach those basic numbers, they can start training with goals specific to sports, bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, or whatever they want to do.

So, until you can Bench and Clean your bodyweight, you don’t need to be doing isolation exercises. And you definatly don’t need to be resting a muscle group for 4-6 days before you train it again. [/quote]

Again though you didn’t answer the question? Are you basing the guidlines you think they should follow on your personal development, people you’ve trained, people you’ve trained with, or is it just articles you’ve read?

173

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:

And no offense, you seem like a good guy who’s trying to help people, but what do you base your opnions on what beginers should and shouldn’t do? You always seem to post a lot of long technical post.

Yeah, I write way too much. But I don’t think this thread is about the OP anymore.

I think total beginners should do the Rippetoe program in starting strength or the real Bill Starr 5X5 program no matter what their goals are. This program has no isolation exercises to speak of. That will take them to where they can bench and power clean their bodyweight. Once they reach those basic numbers, they can start training with goals specific to sports, bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, or whatever they want to do.

So, until you can Bench and Clean your bodyweight, you don’t need to be doing isolation exercises. And you definatly don’t need to be resting a muscle group for 4-6 days before you train it again.

Again though you didn’t answer the question? Are you basing the guidlines you think they should follow on your personal development, people you’ve trained, people you’ve trained with, or is it just articles you’ve read?
[/quote]

They’re based mostly on my personal development. I noticed once I stopped doing Dumbbell Bench, Lat-Pulldown, Curls, Leg Extensions, and Leg Curls every workout and started doing an Upper-Lower split I made much faster progress. The reason I was so drawn to Bill Star’s 5X5, Rippetoe’s program, and WS4SB was because they were all pretty close to what I had come up with by myself.

I’m only 19. I haven’t trained anyone outside of a few friends who’ve just asked me for advice, and in those conversations it becomes pretty apparent to me that they haven’t been making great progress because the focus of their training is on isolation exercises. Even if they’re doing TBT or a Bodypart Split they’ll only do a few sets of 1 Compound exercise and the rest of what they do will be isolation exercises. (Their Leg Day is Leg Press then every isolation machine - Their Chest/Arms day is Bench Press then a bunch of curls, flies, and extensions).

But from what I’ve experienced, what I’ve seen in other people, and what I’ve read, the people making the fastest progress are the ones who focus on Squats, Deadlifts, and Cleans. These people usually do 1 kind of curl at the end of their workouts as well. Just one.

174

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:

And no offense, you seem like a good guy who’s trying to help people, but what do you base your opnions on what beginers should and shouldn’t do? You always seem to post a lot of long technical post.

Yeah, I write way too much. But I don’t think this thread is about the OP anymore.

I think total beginners should do the Rippetoe program in starting strength or the real Bill Starr 5X5 program no matter what their goals are. This program has no isolation exercises to speak of. That will take them to where they can bench and power clean their bodyweight. Once they reach those basic numbers, they can start training with goals specific to sports, bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, or whatever they want to do.

So, until you can Bench and Clean your bodyweight, you don’t need to be doing isolation exercises. And you definatly don’t need to be resting a muscle group for 4-6 days before you train it again.

Again though you didn’t answer the question? Are you basing the guidlines you think they should follow on your personal development, people you’ve trained, people you’ve trained with, or is it just articles you’ve read?

They’re based mostly on my personal development. I noticed once I stopped doing Dumbbell Bench, Lat-Pulldown, Curls, Leg Extensions, and Leg Curls every workout and started doing an Upper-Lower split I made much faster progress. The reason I was so drawn to Bill Star’s 5X5, Rippetoe’s program, and WS4SB was because they were all pretty close to what I had come up with by myself.

I’m only 19. I haven’t trained anyone outside of a few friends who’ve just asked me for advice, and in those conversations it becomes pretty apparent to me that they haven’t been making great progress because the focus of their training is on isolation exercises. Even if they’re doing TBT or a Bodypart Split they’ll only do a few sets of 1 Compound exercise and the rest of what they do will be isolation exercises. (Their Leg Day is Leg Press then every isolation machine - Their Chest/Arms day is Bench Press then a bunch of curls, flies, and extensions).

But from what I’ve experienced, what I’ve seen in other people, and what I’ve read, the people making the fastest progress are the ones who focus on Squats, Deadlifts, and Cleans. These people usually do 1 kind of curl at the end of their workouts as well. Just one. [/quote]

I think what you are arguing is that a beginner cannot come up with an effective body part split, not that an effective body part split cannot work. No?

175

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:

And no offense, you seem like a good guy who’s trying to help people, but what do you base your opnions on what beginers should and shouldn’t do? You always seem to post a lot of long technical post.

Yeah, I write way too much. But I don’t think this thread is about the OP anymore.

I think total beginners should do the Rippetoe program in starting strength or the real Bill Starr 5X5 program no matter what their goals are. This program has no isolation exercises to speak of. That will take them to where they can bench and power clean their bodyweight. Once they reach those basic numbers, they can start training with goals specific to sports, bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, or whatever they want to do.

So, until you can Bench and Clean your bodyweight, you don’t need to be doing isolation exercises. And you definatly don’t need to be resting a muscle group for 4-6 days before you train it again.

Again though you didn’t answer the question? Are you basing the guidlines you think they should follow on your personal development, people you’ve trained, people you’ve trained with, or is it just articles you’ve read?

They’re based mostly on my personal development. I noticed once I stopped doing Dumbbell Bench, Lat-Pulldown, Curls, Leg Extensions, and Leg Curls every workout and started doing an Upper-Lower split I made much faster progress. The reason I was so drawn to Bill Star’s 5X5, Rippetoe’s program, and WS4SB was because they were all pretty close to what I had come up with by myself.

I’m only 19. I haven’t trained anyone outside of a few friends who’ve just asked me for advice, and in those conversations it becomes pretty apparent to me that they haven’t been making great progress because the focus of their training is on isolation exercises. Even if they’re doing TBT or a Bodypart Split they’ll only do a few sets of 1 Compound exercise and the rest of what they do will be isolation exercises. (Their Leg Day is Leg Press then every isolation machine - Their Chest/Arms day is Bench Press then a bunch of curls, flies, and extensions).

But from what I’ve experienced, what I’ve seen in other people, and what I’ve read, the people making the fastest progress are the ones who focus on Squats, Deadlifts, and Cleans. These people usually do 1 kind of curl at the end of their workouts as well. Just one. [/quote]

That is a pretty narrow perspective for the amount of theories and guidlines you’ve established. If it is working for you keep doing it. But to procalaim no beginner should do isolation exercises is kind of silly without more than experience than you’ve got. My advice to the younger guys would be to learn from the big guys, not articles. Unless your goals are to learn to write fitness articles.

176

[quote]Professor X wrote:
They also rarely go into how much they currently weigh, what stage of training they are at or give specifics about their measurements.
[/quote]

Fine. I’ll go into detail about my measurements. I’m not posting a picture because, as you’ll be able to tell from my measurements,
it’s probably not worth doing so.

Bodyweight: 185
Height: 5’10’
Chest: 45’
Legs: 25’
Neck: 17’
Arms: 15.5’
Calves: 16’
Waist: 32’ at belly-button
Hips: 38’ (trying to be specific)

While I don’t have a decade of experience, and I admit I’m not the most qualified person to talk about getting jacked, I have gained 30 pounds since last summer while retaining my six-pack.
I didn’t do more than 3 sets of curls twice a week in order to gain that weight.

It took me longer to get from 135 to 155 than it did for me to get from 155 to 185. I’m pretty sure that’s because I was doing a lot of Lateral Raises, Curls, and Leg Presses while I was going from 135 to 145. But once I went after Push-Jerks, Squats, Deadlifts, and Chins I was able to get bigger and stronger much faster. My training wasn’t completely devoid of compound movements when I just began training, but I was doing a lot of isolation exercises. Yeah, I made progress doing nearly 50% compound 50% isolation but I didn’t make it very fast and I suspect the only reason I did make progress was “newbie gains” and the fact that I hadn’t every lifted weights before.

Is it possible for someone to gain more than 30 pounds of mostly lean mass in 9 months without drugs? Of course. I’m not going to pretend that my training was perfect. While I feel like I am one of the more motivated people I know, I’m not going to pretend that other people out there have a better capacity for going batshit crazy in the weight room more often than I can every week. But I feel like I have enough evidence to say that novice lifters will make the best progress if their training includes very little isolation work.

177

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:

And no offense, you seem like a good guy who’s trying to help people, but what do you base your opnions on what beginers should and shouldn’t do? You always seem to post a lot of long technical post.

Yeah, I write way too much. But I don’t think this thread is about the OP anymore.

I think total beginners should do the Rippetoe program in starting strength or the real Bill Starr 5X5 program no matter what their goals are. This program has no isolation exercises to speak of. That will take them to where they can bench and power clean their bodyweight. Once they reach those basic numbers, they can start training with goals specific to sports, bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman, or whatever they want to do.

So, until you can Bench and Clean your bodyweight, you don’t need to be doing isolation exercises. And you definatly don’t need to be resting a muscle group for 4-6 days before you train it again.

Again though you didn’t answer the question? Are you basing the guidlines you think they should follow on your personal development, people you’ve trained, people you’ve trained with, or is it just articles you’ve read?

They’re based mostly on my personal development. I noticed once I stopped doing Dumbbell Bench, Lat-Pulldown, Curls, Leg Extensions, and Leg Curls every workout and started doing an Upper-Lower split I made much faster progress. The reason I was so drawn to Bill Star’s 5X5, Rippetoe’s program, and WS4SB was because they were all pretty close to what I had come up with by myself.

I’m only 19. I haven’t trained anyone outside of a few friends who’ve just asked me for advice, and in those conversations it becomes pretty apparent to me that they haven’t been making great progress because the focus of their training is on isolation exercises. Even if they’re doing TBT or a Bodypart Split they’ll only do a few sets of 1 Compound exercise and the rest of what they do will be isolation exercises. (Their Leg Day is Leg Press then every isolation machine - Their Chest/Arms day is Bench Press then a bunch of curls, flies, and extensions).

But from what I’ve experienced, what I’ve seen in other people, and what I’ve read, the people making the fastest progress are the ones who focus on Squats, Deadlifts, and Cleans. These people usually do 1 kind of curl at the end of their workouts as well. Just one. [/quote]

Since you mentioned WS4SB, I just wanted to point out that Joe D. does include hammer curls, rope press downs, barbell curls, lat raises, reverse flys and shrugs as accessory work. These, for a lot of people, are isolation exercises. In fact, many people recommend not doing shrugs for a variety of reasons. But, some trainers see the benefit of training these ‘common trouble areas’ to help with the main lifts.

178

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:

That is a pretty narrow perspective for the amount of theories and guidlines you’ve established. If it is working for you keep doing it. But to procalaim no beginner should do isolation exercises is kind of silly without more than experience than you’ve got. My advice to the younger guys would be to learn from the big guys, not articles. Unless your goals are to learn to write fitness articles.

[/quote]

That’s fair. But what are the big guys doing?
They’re not doing 2 isolation exercises for every compound exercise. I know that’s not what you suggested. But that’s what made me jump on the OP for having too many isolation exercises.

179

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You can’t even monitor a gain of 1 fucking pound a month. Your body fluctuates in weight everyday by 3-5lbs over the course of 24 hours. That means if 3 months later you are only 3lbs heavier, you may not have gained SHIT. In fact, you may have actually LOST lean body mass.

That is why people shoot for more weight gain than that if the goal is significant muscle growth.[/quote]

This part is pure gold.

180

[quote]FightingScott wrote:

That’s fair. But what are the big guys doing?
They’re not doing 2 isolation exercises for every compound exercise. I know that’s not what you suggested. But that’s what made me jump on the OP for having too many isolation exercises. [/quote]

It just depends on what works for them, but I’ve never seen a really good size bodybuilder who didn’t do isolation exercises. I tend go with a system that starts with a big compound lift and work down to more isolation exercises at the end. Some people get good results from pre-exhaustion with isolation exercises first, although I’ve personally never liked that.

There is one bodybuilder at my gym who looks huge and ripped for his height. This guy does nothing but isolation exercises using reps of 20+. This obviously works for him. They biggest guy I know competes at 6’1" @ 270 lbs. I’ve never seen him do dead lifts or even deep squats for that matter and I worked out with him for nearly 2 years. I have seen him curl 225 and do walking lungs with 225 on his back.

It makes me hurt just just watching him do it. I will say this though, the only guys I have every seen doing clean & jerks are young skinny guys. I’ve always worked out at gyms like Golds and powerhouse, so I’m sure powerlifting gyms are different, but that is just my observation.

Point being, there are different ways to get big, but taking options off the table because of some arbitrary guildlines may mean taking off the options that work best for you.