Age Old Question: Size First or Cut First?

Training Bodybuilding
141

[quote]azza30 wrote:
Hi. I cant be bothered to read all the posts, but i have picked up that prof x is arguing (as usual) about basics first training.

You seem to have so much spare time to sit on this site giving your ten pence worth.

Anyway, I believe if a person cant do sets parallel bar dips with weight, slowly and controlled, then there is no point 'hitting all the angles to ‘trash the chest’.

Cant push press 60 kilos? Dont even bother with front lateral machine super duper whatever.

Always concentrate on a few big movements for a long time first.

Slowly Slowly.

Good luck[/quote]

This isn’t a high school football training forum, it’s a bodybuilding forum. What X is saying is the absolute truth, he’s not saying to not do the presses or dips, he’s saying to do some fucking skullcrushers and pullovers after you do them. Nobody here has said to not do big movements. Arbitrary weight amounts are stupid, if a newbie gets muscle stimulus from 15lb lateral raises, HE’S GOING TO GROW. The only reason to NOT do them is if you are looking to attain mastery of a sport other than bodybuilding, where you need the extra recovery time allocated to speed and skill work.

142

[quote]azza30 wrote:

Cant push press 60 kilos? Dont even bother with front lateral machine super duper whatever.

Good luck[/quote]

That’s actually the sentiment he’s been arguing against.

143

I agree with ProfX on this. I’m not sure when this movement that beginners should only do compound movements started but it wasn’t the school of thought when I started a long time ago. I’m not saying it won’t work to put on size. But I KNOW that a mix of compound and isolation exercises works both through my own experience and watching others progress in my 20+ years of working out in gyms.

I’m curious though, so anyone that has ONLY used compound exercises please post up some pics of your progress. I’ll be open to the idea that it may be more efficient way to train, but I’d want to see something more than article quotes.

144

[quote]red04 wrote:
azza30 wrote:
Hi. I cant be bothered to read all the posts, but i have picked up that prof x is arguing (as usual) about basics first training.

You seem to have so much spare time to sit on this site giving your ten pence worth.

Anyway, I believe if a person cant do sets parallel bar dips with weight, slowly and controlled, then there is no point 'hitting all the angles to ‘trash the chest’.

Cant push press 60 kilos? Dont even bother with front lateral machine super duper whatever.

Always concentrate on a few big movements for a long time first.

Slowly Slowly.

Good luck

This isn’t a high school football training forum, it’s a bodybuilding forum. What X is saying is the absolute truth, he’s not saying to not do the presses or dips, he’s saying to do some fucking skullcrushers and pullovers after you do them. Nobody here has said to not do big movements. Arbitrary weight amounts are stupid, if a newbie gets muscle stimulus from 15lb lateral raises, HE’S GOING TO GROW. The only reason to NOT do them is if you are looking to attain mastery of a sport other than bodybuilding, where you need the extra recovery time allocated to speed and skill work.
[/quote]

Well said. This “either or” mentality needs to be shot in the head.

145

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
I agree with ProfX on this. I’m not sure when this movement that beginners should only do compound movements started but it wasn’t the school of thought when I started a long time ago. I’m not saying it won’t work to put on size. But I KNOW that a mix of compound and isolation exercises works both through my own experience and watching others progress in my 20+ years of working out in gyms.

I’m curious though, so anyone that has ONLY used compound exercises please post up some pics of your progress. I’ll be open to the idea that it may be more efficient way to train, but I’d want to see something more than article quotes.[/quote]

I guess they are just shy.

146

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
I’m not sure when this movement that beginners should only do compound movements started [/quote]

It’s non-existent. As soon as someone says that compound moves should be the focus of any program, everyone starts screaming and making shit up. Then the pissing contest begins.

147

There’s a lot of talk about work capacity and recovery going on.

If anything, beginners should focus more on compound lifts because they can handle it.

Beginners are horribly inefficient at telling their bodys to lift shit, so they have a pretty hard time causing some real muscle trauma. An advanced bodybuilder may only be able to do 1 set of Bench with 90% of their max (think Kevin Levrone). But a beginner can do 90% of their max like theres no tomorrow (think all the little people who bench 3X10 with 135 who can only max at 165).

So, what are advanced bodybuilders to do? Assistance Exercises and Isolation exercises.
Dorian Yates and his training evolution is a good example. As Dorian got stronger, his split changed. He went from doing a 2-day Upper-Lower Split to a 4-day Bodypart Split. As he went from the 2-day split to the 4-day split, he did more isolation exercises.

This isn’t the actual progression, but I imagine it went something like this…

Day 1
Incline Bench
Yates Row
Pushdown
Barbell Curl

Day 2
Hack Squat
SLDL
Leg Press
Leg Curl

to something like this…

Day 1
Incline Bench
HS Bench Press
Dumbbell Fly
Cable Crossover

Day 2
HS High-Row
Yates Row
Nautilis Pullover
Back Extension

Day 3
EZ-Bar Curl
Incline Curl
Pushdown
Close-Grip Bench

Day 4
Hack Squat
Leg Press
Leg Extension
Leg Curl

I’m well aware that this isn’t actually his split and that he would have done more exercises, but the point is as he got stronger, he trained bodyparts less frequently because they needed longer to recover from the heavier weights he was using. And since he was devoting an entire day to Arms instead of just 2 days a week to the upper body, of course more of his training consisted of isolation exercises.

Even if what I’m saying here isn’t delivered the best, I think the point I’m trying to make is somewhat clear.

148

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:
I’m not sure when this movement that beginners should only do compound movements started

It’s non-existent. As soon as someone says that compound moves should be the focus of any program, everyone starts screaming and making shit up. Then the pissing contest begins. [/quote]

I may have missed it, but I didn’t see anyone say compound movements shouldn’t be the focus, but that their wasn’t a good reason to eliminate isolation exercises.

And no offense, you seem like a good guy who’s trying to help people, but what do you base your opnions on what beginers should and shouldn’t do? You always seem to post a lot of long technical post.

149

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:

I’m curious though, so anyone that has ONLY used compound exercises please post up some pics of your progress. I’ll be open to the idea that it may be more efficient way to train, but I’d want to see something more than article quotes.[/quote]

Why do threads like these quiet down whenever this comes up?

150

I don’t have photos, but I gained the most lean weight I’ve ever gained after switching to a mostly-compound lift schedule with a push/pull split. Presumably it’s because I hit each part of the split about twice a week.

151

[quote]wirewound wrote:
I don’t have photos, but I gained the most lean weight I’ve ever gained after switching to a mostly-compound lift schedule with a push/pull split. Presumably it’s because I hit each part of the split about twice a week.[/quote]

I can’t even count the times that someone has written similar…yet they never show pictures either. They also rarely go into how much they currently weigh, what stage of training they are at or give specifics about their measurements.

It is great that you have made progress, however.

152

[quote]Professor X wrote:
wirewound wrote:
I don’t have photos, but I gained the most lean weight I’ve ever gained after switching to a mostly-compound lift schedule with a push/pull split. Presumably it’s because I hit each part of the split about twice a week.

I can’t even count the times that someone has written similar…yet they never show pictures either. They also rarely go into how much they currently weigh, what stage of training they are at or give specifics about their measurements.

It is great that you have made progress, however. [/quote]

True.

I could say the same about my routine - I changed to a simplified “back to basics” 3 day split 2 months back using compounds and isolations, and have increased my lifts, for example, by nearly 15lbs per dumbell in the db bench press.

This doesn’t mean my routine is any better or worse than the previous mentioned, but I found when I have longer workouts, that focusing on isolation towards the end (with some good volume) has been giving me good results. Even a couple regulars in the gym mentioned that I’ve added noticable size recently.

I would say I’m reaching an intermediate stage, where I’ve been involved in weights for over 3 years, but have put a lot more focus into getting stronger/bigger in the last year rather than the cyclical “lose fat/gain muscle” stages I started with.

153

[quote]Professor X wrote:
jstreet0204 wrote:

I’m curious though, so anyone that has ONLY used compound exercises please post up some pics of your progress. I’ll be open to the idea that it may be more efficient way to train, but I’d want to see something more than article quotes.

Why do threads like these quiet down whenever this comes up?[/quote]

I don’t know. I’m still pretty new to this board, but one thing I have noticed is that it seems like a lot of the younger guys want to over-complicate things by worrying too much about all the bio-mechanisms and their reactions.

The only thing I think beginners should be limited to is learning form and safety first.

154

[quote]rsg wrote:

True.

I could say the same about my routine - I changed to a simplified “back to basics” 3 day split 2 months back using compounds and isolations, and have increased my lifts, for example, by nearly 15lbs per dumbell in the db bench press.

This doesn’t mean my routine is any better or worse than the previous mentioned, but I found when I have longer workouts, that focusing on isolation towards the end (with some good volume) has been giving me good results. Even a couple regulars in the gym mentioned that I’ve added noticable size recently.

I would say I’m reaching an intermediate stage, where I’ve been involved in weights for over 3 years, but have put a lot more focus into getting stronger/bigger in the last year rather than the cyclical “lose fat/gain muscle” stages I started with.
[/quote]

X2

All the full body routines that I’ve done the past couple years left me with a great foundation-- no doubt I got leaner (lost 70#) and stronger (numbers have shot up), but it left some parts lagging (ie my arms).

I made the commitment to “Get Bigger Arms”, so I switched to a 4-on-1-Off Push/Pull/Legs/Arms split with great results.

I attribute that directly to adding at least one direct arm movement on Push/Pull days, and the dedicated arm day (plus eating for it).

…and I even have pics… :confused:

155

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

X2

All the full body routines that I’ve done the past couple years left me with a great foundation-- no doubt I got leaner (lost 70#) and stronger (numbers have shot up), but it left some parts lagging (ie my arms).

I made the commitment to “Get Bigger Arms”, so I switched to a 4-on-1-Off Push/Pull/Legs/Arms split with great results.

I attribute that directly to adding at least one direct arm movement on Push/Pull days, and the dedicated arm day (plus eating for it).

…and I even have pics… :/[/quote]

…and you have made impressive progress. Keep it up. I guess full body workouts must cost a lot so people can’t afford cameras.

I do know that if I was making as much progress as some claim, I would not be that reluctant to show some of it off.

156

[quote]rsg wrote:
Professor X wrote:
wirewound wrote:
I don’t have photos, but I gained the most lean weight I’ve ever gained after switching to a mostly-compound lift schedule with a push/pull split. Presumably it’s because I hit each part of the split about twice a week.

I can’t even count the times that someone has written similar…yet they never show pictures either. They also rarely go into how much they currently weigh, what stage of training they are at or give specifics about their measurements.

It is great that you have made progress, however.

True.

I could say the same about my routine - I changed to a simplified “back to basics” 3 day split 2 months back using compounds and isolations, and have increased my lifts, for example, by nearly 15lbs per dumbell in the db bench press.

This doesn’t mean my routine is any better or worse than the previous mentioned, but I found when I have longer workouts, that focusing on isolation towards the end (with some good volume) has been giving me good results. Even a couple regulars in the gym mentioned that I’ve added noticable size recently.

I would say I’m reaching an intermediate stage, where I’ve been involved in weights for over 3 years, but have put a lot more focus into getting stronger/bigger in the last year rather than the cyclical “lose fat/gain muscle” stages I started with.
[/quote]

Welcome. It is the phase that you will stay in for the majority of your training life - possibly all of it depending on how serious you actually get.

I first began training with weights at 18, 10 years ago and i first began researching seriously at 20 8 years ago… i am an intermediate and shall be for some time yet!

JJ

157

[quote]wirewound wrote:
I don’t have photos, but I gained the most lean weight I’ve ever gained after switching to a mostly-compound lift schedule with a push/pull split. Presumably it’s because I hit each part of the split about twice a week.[/quote]

As a beginner I gained almost 50lbs of lean muscle over a summer. All I had access to was a bench and some weights. All we did was bench press, curls, and skull crushers. That was the best gain in lean mass I’ve ever made. Was it the right way to do it? Well I wouldn’t do it that way now but it worked. To this day my chest and arms are my strong points even though I work everything.

It took advantage of a couple of a couple of really good scenerios. One I had never really trained so there was a lot of good newbie gains to be had, and two I was a teenager and my natural test levels were high. Now imagine if I had spent that first summer working every muscle group equally.

Now after that summer I started working out at a gym, and watched what the bigger guys did, and copied it. Compound and isolation movements. The gains were obviously not as fast but my shape started to change. I started to get the rounded shoulders and full muscles. I looked different than the football players doing the squats bench and deadlifts.

This was all about 22 years ago so we didn’t have digital cameras back then :slight_smile:

158

I have been training for about 20 years now and have never really liked training arms. They have always been a weak point. I consistently did compound movements with minor improvements to my arms. Realizing my arms are a weak point I went from training them once every 10 days to 2-3 times a week and over the last month have gained a 1/2 in while cutting 10 lbs and by the way losing 2 inches off my waist.

159

[quote]zaydadog wrote:
I have been training for about 20 years now and have never really liked training arms. They have always been a weak point. I consistently did compound movements with minor improvements to my arms. Realizing my arms are a weak point I went from training them once every 10 days to 2-3 times a week and over the last month have gained a 1/2 in while cutting 10 lbs and by the way losing 2 inches off my waist.
[/quote]

Good work. Keep it up.

Now, if we can only get the other 1 million people with 15" arms or smaller to realize that actually training your fucking arms might just make them grow.

160

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
wirewound wrote:
I don’t have photos, but I gained the most lean weight I’ve ever gained after switching to a mostly-compound lift schedule with a push/pull split. Presumably it’s because I hit each part of the split about twice a week.

As a beginner I gained almost 50lbs of lean muscle over a summer. All I had access to was a bench and some weights. All we did was bench press, curls, and skull crushers. That was the best gain in lean mass I’ve ever made. Was it the right way to do it? Well I wouldn’t do it that way now but it worked. To this day my chest and arms are my strong points even though I work everything.

It took advantage of a couple of a couple of really good scenerios. One I had never really trained so there was a lot of good newbie gains to be had, and two I was a teenager and my natural test levels were high. Now imagine if I had spent that first summer working every muscle group equally.

Now after that summer I started working out at a gym, and watched what the bigger guys did, and copied it. Compound and isolation movements. The gains were obviously not as fast but my shape started to change. I started to get the rounded shoulders and full muscles. I looked different than the football players doing the squats bench and deadlifts.

This was all about 22 years ago so we didn’t have digital cameras back then :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Many beginners believe that making HUGE gains in muscle mass isn’t possible even as beginners. They have read articles not even intended for them stating some cut off of “1-2lbs a month” so they avoid even attempting to gain more than that.

You can’t even monitor a gain of 1 fucking pound a month. Your body fluctuates in weight everyday by 3-5lbs over the course of 24 hours. That means if 3 months later you are only 3lbs heavier, you may not have gained SHIT. In fact, you may have actually LOST lean body mass.

That is why people shoot for more weight gain than that if the goal is significant muscle growth.