Age Old Question: Size First or Cut First?

Training Bodybuilding
81

[quote] JJ wrote:
medevac wrote:
forbes wrote:

remember though, my weight and height may not be big, my my BF% is 13%. thats more of an important factor than weight or height. according to Charles Poliquin, im fat!

Sounds like you maybe are already leaning to the wrong side and are trying to justify trying to lose some body fat.

I have problems with your numbers… at 5’9" and 150 lbs I doubt you are 13% body fat unless your muscles are actually concave. Did you use a scale impedance test? Woefully inaccurate.

At any rate, you should post this in the beginners section because that’s what it’s for. As far as workouts, doesn’t really matter not one bit. If you did splits or full body or whatever at this stage is fine.

How do you work out that he cant have that bf%? why not?[/quote]

Oh no particular reason, except that if you take a 5’9" guy and make him a whopping 150 lbs, the only way he’s going to have that high a percentage of BF is if he has absolutely zero muscle or very light bones. It’s possible I guess, but I’ll bet he’s using an inexact method to measure it. And BF really shouldn’t matter to him anyway at this point.

82

[quote]medevac wrote:
…BF really shouldn’t matter to him anyway at this point.[/quote]

This is most important. We see it everyday. Most beginners do NOT need to be worried about what their specific number is for body fat percentage. This alone is why so many are confused and why these number rules need to be thrown out of the window.

This is why 150lbs newbies are dieting down because they’ve read that they need to be at “10% body fat” before they ever gain a pound.

It is no wonder why there are so few truly built people walking around in most gyms lately.

People (read as Personal Trainers and those like them trying to cash in on this) have made what was a simple concept overly complicated so books can be sold.

83

It wouldnt mean he had no muscle, he would have a LBM of 130lbs… and 20lbs fat… He would just be skinny-fat. really skinny and really fat!

I think it is COMMON… shit, seen the state of our fellow humans these days, hidden beneath those clothes most men and women have horrendous bodies. Evolution has dictated it so we have to work REAL hard to just stop that happening, let alone make an attractive body!

But i agree - very low muscle mass… not “none” for obvious reasons… well i hope not or he is gonna struggle in this life, all limp over the back of a chair for 70+ years… With a DB on the floor rolling away from him… lol!

Joe

84

hahah, that guy does look like a teradactly.

anywas, thanks guys (you too Prof X). i guess i just needed a good wakeup call and stop being so caught up with numbers. i believe John Berardi said (and this is not a direct quote) “to have a good body comp in the long term, you have to forget about it in the short term”

i also do believe that Cassandra Forsythe said that its definitely possible to gain muscle on a low carb diet.

however, i’ll just use trial and error. i’ll try the anabolic diet first for a while. if no (or minimal results), i’ll try carb cycling. if not that, then morning carbs, evening fats. i actually think cycling carbs in this manner (while keeping cals above maintenance), i should gain mass without too much fat.

and the reason why i posted this thread in the first place is b/c i’ve read sooooo much on this site that i have information over load. i’ve read lots about Chad Waterbury. he’s soooooo against body part slits. i dont think he’s ever recommended one. then there’s Charles Poliquin. He mostly recommends body part splits. the only place i see him recommend full body is in his lactate producing workouts for fat loss.

then you have CT who uses both. i think thats the smarter way to go. i’d say 6 weeks full body, then a de-load, 6 weeks body part split, 1 week de-load and so on. my earlier recommendation of a de-load every 3 weeks was too often.

for my TBT, i’ll do Chad’s TBT.

for my split, i’ll use a 4 day split: chest back/quad dominant + abs and calves/shoulders and arms/hip dominant + abs and calves.

within each “cycle” i’ll prob use JJ’s rep suggestions.

85

[quote]bostonbigticket wrote:
medevac wrote:
forbes wrote:

Yea those body fat tests can be innaccurate. I took one a couple of years back for a police exam. I was 5’11 165lbs and they said I had 12% bodyfat, oh btw I was running 70 miles a week and could run a sub 4:30 mile so I highly doubt I was 12% body fat.

Maybe some pics would help, but it sounds like you should bulk, unless your going for the tayshaun prince look.[/quote]

what does running have to do with being below 12% BF? I see a lot of hardcore runners that have less than appealing body fat %s

86

I think this is a no-brainer. At 150lbs and 13%bf, you need to pack on some muscle! Figure out a rough-estimate of your calorie needs including workout so that you don’t go absolutely nuts on the calories, but other than that - eat, lift, sleep, work, fuck. Repeat as necessary.

As an aside, it was a few years ago when I read a roundtable or some such on this site that said ‘cut the fat’ first…seemed a bit crazy to me at the time.

87

perhaps i should train like a powerlifter? get strong to get big?

88

[quote]forbes wrote:
perhaps i should train like a powerlifter? get strong to get big?[/quote]

Perhaps you should eat more. Eat more to get big.

89

i know that already. eat more this and that blah blah blah. i KNOW it! fear is what kept me back. but it wont no more.

i just want to make sure that i damage my muscles enough so that when i eat big, most of the nutrients will go towards that.

90

[quote]forbes wrote:
hahah, that guy does look like a teradactly.

anywas, thanks guys (you too Prof X). i guess i just needed a good wakeup call and stop being so caught up with numbers. i believe John Berardi said (and this is not a direct quote) “to have a good body comp in the long term, you have to forget about it in the short term”

i also do believe that Cassandra Forsythe said that its definitely possible to gain muscle on a low carb diet.

however, i’ll just use trial and error. i’ll try the anabolic diet first for a while. if no (or minimal results), i’ll try carb cycling. if not that, then morning carbs, evening fats. i actually think cycling carbs in this manner (while keeping cals above maintenance), i should gain mass without too much fat.

and the reason why i posted this thread in the first place is b/c i’ve read sooooo much on this site that i have information over load. i’ve read lots about Chad Waterbury. he’s soooooo against body part slits. i dont think he’s ever recommended one. then there’s Charles Poliquin. He mostly recommends body part splits. the only place i see him recommend full body is in his lactate producing workouts for fat loss.

then you have CT who uses both. i think thats the smarter way to go. i’d say 6 weeks full body, then a de-load, 6 weeks body part split, 1 week de-load and so on. my earlier recommendation of a de-load every 3 weeks was too often.

for my TBT, i’ll do Chad’s TBT.

for my split, i’ll use a 4 day split: chest back/quad dominant + abs and calves/shoulders and arms/hip dominant + abs and calves.

within each “cycle” i’ll prob use JJ’s rep suggestions.[/quote]

honestly, all i really see is you coming back in 12 or so weeks with no progress, and complaining you are a hardgainer.

Why are you obsessed with finding a diet that has a fancy name? Those are for lifters who weigh more than 150 lbs. You need to eat. a lot. 6 relatively clean meals a day, tons of food. Protein, carbs, fats. You’ll need to use some intuition and learn how your body works at first. Sorry no author is going to spoon feed it to you.

Don’t read another article till you come back 15 pounds heavier.
You have so little development that any program will work, so pick the simplest one and stick with it for at least three months.

91

[quote]forbes wrote:
perhaps i should train like a powerlifter? get strong to get big?[/quote]

That’s fine. Or train like a bodybuilder. Here is your main goal:

For the hour or so you are in the gym, focus on that: the training. You can make up a plan or pick one from here and try to increase a couple of reps or your weight every time you re-train that part. Every so often vary the exercises or splits or whatever but ADD WEIGHT and TRY HARDER on your working sets. That is your absolute focus…oh and don’t get your panties in a wad over form. Do pretty good form but don’t lose sleep over it. That’s for your entire world for the 1 to 1.5 hours each workout however many days a week.

The other 23 hours are for eating and sleeping. This is more important in my opinion than fretting over whether preacher curls are necessary for “complete” bicep development. Yes there is that rare one who can grow eating 1800 calories of cheese-its but for the mortals of the world, you have to put effort here and not just blow it off as “yeah yeah eat more”.

As a small guy (like me) you HAVE to prep your meals, you HAVE to eat by the clock (food loses it’s enjoyment), you HAVE to totally change your mind-set on food. I can tell you that saving me has been doing the opposite trick that Shugart recommended in a recent diet article.

He recommended for you to lose weight you need to stop the mindless snacking…well for me I had to INCREASE the mindlessness of it. I prep all my food and have it at work in little containers each one roughly 300 calories or so in easy to nuke amounts. Pop in microwave and munch…completely effortless…I keep food so handy that I have to actively NOT eat as opposed to eat. But I can do that at my job you may not have the option. Again it depends on how bad you want it.

And just to come clean I am not some 220 lb guy doling out seasoned advice from back in the day I’m just telling you what’s worked for me so far. I don’t want to come across as rehashing what I’ve read and acting like I’m where I want to be physically (I’m not). I simply grow more when I try to add even the smallest of plates to the bar and even the smallest of food to my meals.

Not rocket science so don’t make it out to be. It will be boring at times and especially the eating gets to be a drag. But then again if it was easy you’d already be there as would I or a million others.

92

what do you guys think bout soy lecithin granules as a source of phospholipids?

93

[quote]forbes wrote:
what do you guys think bout soy lecithin granules as a source of phospholipids?[/quote]

I think the fact that you asked this question (as if it were really a priority at all) means you need to be slapped with a 45lbs plate.

94

[quote]forbes wrote:
what do you guys think bout soy lecithin granules as a source of phospholipids?[/quote]

God dammit I quit.

95

[quote]forbes wrote:
what do you guys think bout soy lecithin granules as a source of phospholipids?[/quote]

96

haha, guys…i was just kidding. i KNOW that right now, thats not vital. just the basics for now.

honestly, i was kidding. i wanted to see (or read) your reactions.

97

[quote]forbes wrote:
what do you guys think bout soy lecithin granules as a source of phospholipids?[/quote]

SERIOUSLY, “soy”!!! You need to really stop making this complicated…all you need to concentrate on has been posted and repeated several times over.

98

and looks like i win :slight_smile:

99

You are wasting everyones time.

100

[quote]forbes wrote:
haha, guys…i was just kidding. i KNOW that right now, thats not vital. just the basics for now.

honestly, i was kidding. i wanted to see (or read) your reactions.[/quote]

Sorry you have to earn that right. I’m out, good luck to you.