Against Knockout

Best way not to get knocked out is by developing neck strength. I’m a US certified Boxing Coach and i know this saves lives. Only scenario this doesn’t work is if you have a glass jaw. But the method we us in the states is to just buy a neck strengthening device and attach the proper amount of weights to it and just rep it out. your neck will get tired and become sore and once it heals go back it again. you will find that your recovery for you neck will go up until you can do this every other day.

another way which was sort of mention is how they fighters do it. they get a plastic tube and run it through a weight plater like a 5-10lb plate. they then bite down on the plastic tubes then begin neck raises. this helps to remind you to keep your teeth clenched when taking a shot. hope that helped you out for avoiding a knockout. other issues is how is your footwork, defense and upper body movement? more factors in avoiding a knockout.

I have seen guys that would constantly have a huge mouthful of gum chewing to try to strengthen the muscles in their jaws. I have seen guys that would basically roller pin their jawline and their skulls so to make them feel the strikes less. I dunno if any of that works the guys I seen doing it were never prone to be knocked out though so maybe it did or like everyone else has pretty much said they were just born with a good chin.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
This topic interest me just because it also seems the route to avoid being punch drunk after a career of fighting. So just tossing out some ideas…

what is a Knockout?

Basically your CNS is interrupted by vigorous force affecting your synapses. It’s like you unplugged your computer. I’m sure we all are aware of what it is. But lets just be clear.

Secondly, lets define what causes a knockout (from wikipedia):

There is actually very little known about what exactly causes a knockout but many agree it has to do with minor trauma to the brain stem. This usually happens when the head rotates sharply, often caused by a strike. There are three general manifestations of such trauma - the typical knock out which results in a sustained loss of consciousness (comparable to general anesthesia - where the recepient emerges and has lost memory of the event), a “flash” knock out where a very transient loss of consciousness (<3 seconds) occurs (where the recipient often maintains awareness and memory of the combat) , and lastly a “stunning” where consciousness is maintained despite extremely distorted propioperception, visual fields, and auditory processing.

I’ve been flash KO just by REALLY rapid jarring of my neck (normally would incur whiplash, it nearly knocked me out cold) so I can attest to the brain stem damage theory.

While I’m hesitant to compare it to a concussion (because of the implications). IMO, a concussion is caused by the brain bouncing back and forth against the skull. So repeated trauma of that sort (ie, getting punched in the head) should also cause some sort of damage.

So OBVIOUSLY a K.O. is caused by what?

Direct Damage to the Brain.
[/quote]

Well, not arguing that this is one of the major causes of a KO. But there are others.

If you get hit in the side of the neck, then it’s not damage to the brain that causes the loss of consciousness, but severe pressure being placed on the carotid sinus (a little “pressure valve” which senses blood pressure), which tricks the body into thinking that blood pressure is dangerously high, which it responds to by shutting down all unnecessary systems (i.e. consciousness).

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
This topic interest me just because it also seems the route to avoid being punch drunk after a career of fighting. So just tossing out some ideas…

what is a Knockout?

Basically your CNS is interrupted by vigorous force affecting your synapses. It’s like you unplugged your computer. I’m sure we all are aware of what it is. But lets just be clear.

Secondly, lets define what causes a knockout (from wikipedia):

There is actually very little known about what exactly causes a knockout but many agree it has to do with minor trauma to the brain stem. This usually happens when the head rotates sharply, often caused by a strike. There are three general manifestations of such trauma - the typical knock out which results in a sustained loss of consciousness (comparable to general anesthesia - where the recepient emerges and has lost memory of the event), a “flash” knock out where a very transient loss of consciousness (<3 seconds) occurs (where the recipient often maintains awareness and memory of the combat) , and lastly a “stunning” where consciousness is maintained despite extremely distorted propioperception, visual fields, and auditory processing.

I’ve been flash KO just by REALLY rapid jarring of my neck (normally would incur whiplash, it nearly knocked me out cold) so I can attest to the brain stem damage theory.

While I’m hesitant to compare it to a concussion (because of the implications). IMO, a concussion is caused by the brain bouncing back and forth against the skull. So repeated trauma of that sort (ie, getting punched in the head) should also cause some sort of damage.

So OBVIOUSLY a K.O. is caused by what?

Direct Damage to the Brain.

Well, not arguing that this is one of the major causes of a KO. But there are others.

If you get hit in the side of the neck, then it’s not damage to the brain that causes the loss of consciousness, but severe pressure being placed on the carotid sinus (a little “pressure valve” which senses blood pressure), which tricks the body into thinking that blood pressure is dangerously high, which it responds to by shutting down all unnecessary systems (i.e. consciousness).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotid_sinus[/quote]

Oh yes…I’ve seen a few knockouts in MMA that have been on the neck. I guess that would tend to happen with smaller gloves.

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
I don’t know what level you guys are boxing at. But as a guy who boxes for fun and has the odd fight here and there, if I’m getting hit that hard, consistently, I don’t want to be in there. Maybe there is some merit to soaking up massive punishment and looking for the lucky punch if you’re a pro, but if you’re not, why bother?

I will say that the only times I got really stumped is when I didn’t see the punch coming.[/quote]

you take hard shots because you’ve to, not because you want to. what this guy is talking about is pretty stupid, there’s nothing you can do to train against knock outs other than not getting hit. anyway you want to look at it, taking hard shots isn’t in your best interest.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
2) Proper Hydration- I heard this crazy idea before that cutting weight can effect the intercranial fluid in your skull so with less fluid your brain hits the inside of your skull harder with strikes/collision. So you get knocked out easier… I have no idea if this is true or not. I don’t know enough neuroscience to even comment. I’ve just heard it before, so if you have any idea. Clue me in, I’d love to know how legit this is.[/quote]

Xen, I think you and me were talking about this awhile back? I find this an interesting idea, and I only make this half-assumption too because of my own experiences. The few times I’ve been KO’d have been when I was really tired (mouth open trying to suck in more oxygen) and dehydrated (from cutting weight and/or shitty conditioning). But only in/on the ring/mat (and only from shins and elbows, strangely enough). Whereas in any of the violent situations (outside of regulated combat sports) that I’ve been a participant in it’s never happened, which I find surprising. I’ve had numerous concussions, but I’ve usually only noticed the symptoms after the fight is long over when my heart-rate has returned to normal.

Anyway, my two cents.

Lack of hydration will increase the chance of a KO.

Having your mouth open will increase the chance of a KO

Having a badly fitting gum shield will increase the chance of a KO

Not concentrating and tensing blows will increase the chance of a KO

These are all things that you can work to avoid. The other thing you can work to avoid is getting hit flush. Other than that it is pretty much down to genetics.

I have never been KOed from a shot to the chin but I have been KOed from a kick that hit me just below the ear. (actually I have also been KOed by a horse that hit me pretty much everywhere at the same time)

And for the guy who said that he didn’t like the idea of getting hit, you are in good company. I was talking to Royce about people saying that this or that fighter had problems becaues he didn’t like being hit and he told me “Not liking getting hit is a good thing, it teaches you to work on ways to avoid it” I liked that sentiment and totally agree with him.

From my personal experience, it seems like you can train for it to a certain extent. When I fought in the past, if I was able to spar more during pre-fight prep, then even when I took hard shots, it didn’t seem to affect me as much. My last fight, I didn’t get to spar near as much as I wanted(couldn’t nail down partners), and getting hit seemed to suck a lot more than in previous fights. Then again, it could have been my opponent(he cut down from 215 to 185) hitting really effing hard, IDK.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
This topic interest me just because it also seems the route to avoid being punch drunk after a career of fighting. So just tossing out some ideas…

  1. Proper Hydration- I heard this crazy idea before that cutting weight can effect the intercranial fluid in your skull so with less fluid your brain hits the inside of your skull harder with strikes/collision. So you get knocked out easier… I have no idea if this is true or not. I don’t know enough neuroscience to even comment. I’ve just heard it before, so if you have any idea. Clue me in, I’d love to know how legit this is.[/quote]

I can echo your opinion on hydration- I had a series of concussions that got progressively worse
I’ve wrote about it before, here, I got the first one in HS, continued to get them in my first two years of college and got worse later.

Basically It was explained that I had an “active nerve cluster” on my forehead above my right eye.
I never took off the time I needed it to heal- and it remained active.
My understanding is the sensitivity in the vicinity was increased- allot. Things like combing my hair hurt putting on or removing a hat/headgear hurt.

I got a nasty slam/fall , then caught an elbow a few months later
another time a knee
a different time a head butt, all stuff that happens from time to time.

I got some big concussions a few rides to ER
a split retina-
and Yes hydration or lack of played a big part.
I wore a mask to a few matches, and practice but it was a pain- heavy
The concussions led to instant crumpling on my part
passing out
and later a lack of oxygen path to the brain.

I’d guess that the myth about becoming more susceptible to knockouts is pretty valid,
accumulation of damage , left unchecked or unhealed could make one more “knockout prone”

Good post Xen

Not only does water provide a type of cushioning but so does fat. Getting dangerously lean will ultimately rob your body of fat from your joints, organs and other places. Professionals have dietitians helping them rid of subcutaneous water and fat without affecting organ fat and water too much.

This also applies to the torso. You need a certain amount to protect vital organs otherwise small taps to the liver, kidneys or sternum will affect you easier.

As someone else also mentioned, sparring definitely has a benefit. You can be a demon on pads, bags and super fit but it means jack if you freak out the first time you get hit. Even if you’re of a high level, not training for a while or sparring will affect your conditioning. When you’re conditioned, you can take what you’re given and continue much better.

I’ve been dropped plenty of times, but they were by guys who have had devastating knock out power and above 120 kilograms. I’ve never been completely out yet but the one time I came close it was scary. I was dropped and I remember being hit and falling, seeing a blur on the ground and getting to my knees and then trying to straighten up and get up but not being able to extend and stand up.

Scary feeling but I do attribute it to years of not being punch shy and training and sparring with bigger guys. We don’t go all out but still when a guy who’s 100+ kg hits you, even when he’s playing, you know about it.

I do believe that some people are born with superior structures that allow them to take blows much better. Contrary to popular belief, big jawlines don’t mean jack. In actual fact, the longer the jawline structure the less force you need to cause the same amount of shock at the jaw, neck, brainstem or cervical spine. Torque = force x distance.

Obviously two jaws of otherwise exactly same structure and same musculature supporting them but one jaw line longer and you plug in the same numbers but change the distance input and you will get higher torque being applied for the longer jaw line.

Sometimes those larger jawlines are accompanied by stronger musculature and other supporting structures but the rule above still applies. Less amount of torque required to cause the same effect.

Also, speed is the most devastating factor in a knockout. This was witnessed when the much smaller Melvin Manhoef severly knocked out Mark Hunt who is otherwise known to have one of the best Jaws in MMA and K1.
Manhoef though is a dangerously fast and explosive very small heavyweight.

So most importantly, spar. This is the most effective way to stop being ‘punch shy’. Get used to copping punches on your gloves but still remaining balanced and poised. Many people panic as soon as they get it. This causes them to tense up and ‘freeze’. Some start backing away, neck up looking out for what’s coming next, coupled with being on the back foot and unbalanced this makes for an easy KO if the other persons foot work is sound enough to turn at the angle required and punch.

Secondly, stay hydrated and keep enough fat on your body.

Thirdly train your neck, traps, and back. Also train your jaw by doing as others have suggested. Chewing thick gum helps as well as wrapping a piece of leather around a chain or harness attached to weight.

Fourthly proper mouth guards, keeping your chin down and tucked but not at the expense of having your neck extended forward.

By far the most important thing though, is DONT GET HIT! learn proper footwork, timing, train your reflexes and drill over and over again to ensure you can avoid as many punches as possible.

For that, I say this without trying to take a dig but do straight up boxing with an old school boxing trainer who will teach you footwork, rhythm, balance and drill you enough so that it becomes second nature. MMA, Muay Thai and other arts fail miserably in their defensive tactics as compared to Boxing. I say this objectively with Muay Thai being my preferred sport.

[quote]humble wrote:
[…] Get used to copping punches on your gloves but still remaining balanced and poised. Many people panic as soon as they get it. This causes them to tense up and ‘freeze’. Some start backing away, neck up looking out for what’s coming next, coupled with being on the back foot and unbalanced this makes for an easy KO if the other persons foot work is sound enough to turn at the angle required and punch.

[/quote]

This could be a sticky.

Good one, humble.

Yes, the most important aspect here is getting used to punishment, in a controlled environment and not letting it bother you too much.
If you want a metaphor, how about “steel is forged in fire”.
It’s clear that on a site like TNation, we like to discuss the point of exercising as a means attain situational superiority [think strength, mass, explosivness etc.]even against a technically better opponent.

But it is paramount to know the game.
If you study knockouts, often will you see that the actual finisher is either a surprising blow or that the defenders posture was shitty (chin up etc).
Both means a certain KO if the opponent hits out of your league.
On a sidenote, that’s why Abraham’s Saturday KO was so scary ( check - YouTube ) Taylor -a top pro- was fully aware and prepared for the punch. This happens only when someone has true knockout power.

A fighter must move and posture well, at any time.
You train this best when sparring, altough light and slow sparring or just beat-up drills work fine here, too, especially for getting used to hit.

Of course, if you’re eating too many blows regularly, it’s stupid to refine this any further and clench your teeth together. If that’s the case you should change your style or learn some new tricks.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
But it is paramount to know the game.
If you study knockouts, often will you see that the actual finisher is either a surprising blow or that the defenders posture was shitty (chin up etc).
Both means a certain KO if the opponent hits out of your league.
On a sidenote, that’s why Abraham’s Saturday KO was so scary ( check - YouTube ) Taylor -a top pro- was fully aware and prepared for the punch. This happens only when someone has true knockout power.

A fighter must move and posture well, at any time.
You train this best when sparring, altough light and slow sparring or just beat-up drills work fine here, too, especially for getting used to hit.

Of course, if you’re eating too many blows regularly, it’s stupid to refine this any further and clench your teeth together. If that’s the case you should change your style or learn some new tricks.[/quote]

Exactly. The famous saying is that the knockout punch is whatever one you didn’t see coming.

And if you look at defensive masters like BHop, Winky Wright, and Floyd, they 1) Never take a flush shot- they’re rolling or moving with it, 2) Use their gloves VERY effectively to catch punches (especially Winky), and 3) always have their chin down.

BHop has never been KO’d- and the first thing notice about his stance is that his chin is ALWAYS tucked.

Block.

[quote]Mancador wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
You don’t.

You’re born with it, and if it’s a glass jaw then you’re fucked.

So a farm guy who was born with “steel jaw” but never trained would resist a knockout just as well as Chuck The Iceman would? I dont believe that.
[/quote]

funny Chuck cant take a punch for the life of him

[quote]blackngrey609 wrote:
Mancador wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
You don’t.

You’re born with it, and if it’s a glass jaw then you’re fucked.

So a farm guy who was born with “steel jaw” but never trained would resist a knockout just as well as Chuck The Iceman would? I dont believe that.

funny Chuck cant take a punch for the life of him[/quote]

Not now he can’t. But he’s old, washed up and I suspect one too many parties in Las Vegas involving some blow.

Back in his glory days though chuck could weather some vicious storms.

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
blackngrey609 wrote:
Mancador wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
You don’t.

You’re born with it, and if it’s a glass jaw then you’re fucked.

So a farm guy who was born with “steel jaw” but never trained would resist a knockout just as well as Chuck The Iceman would? I dont believe that.

funny Chuck cant take a punch for the life of him

Not now he can’t. But he’s old, washed up and I suspect one too many parties in Las Vegas involving some blow.

Back in his glory days though chuck could weather some vicious storms.
[/quote]

thats why i agree with Irish. it seems that once you’ve been KO’d it seems to happen more often. Definitely some accumulative damage to the brain.

[quote]blackngrey609 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:
blackngrey609 wrote:
Mancador wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
You don’t.

You’re born with it, and if it’s a glass jaw then you’re fucked.

So a farm guy who was born with “steel jaw” but never trained would resist a knockout just as well as Chuck The Iceman would? I dont believe that.

funny Chuck cant take a punch for the life of him

Not now he can’t. But he’s old, washed up and I suspect one too many parties in Las Vegas involving some blow.

Back in his glory days though chuck could weather some vicious storms.

thats why i agree with Irish. it seems that once you’ve been KO’d it seems to happen more often. Definitely some accumulative damage to the brain.[/quote]

not so much the brain I reckon… but the good ol ‘ticker’ takes a beating. Only way to fix it is to get back in there, get angry with yourself, not make mistakes and spar bigger better people

[quote]humble wrote:
not so much the brain I reckon… but the good ol ‘ticker’ takes a beating. Only way to fix it is to get back in there, get angry with yourself, not make mistakes and spar bigger better people

[/quote]

Dude… I really don’t think it has much to do with heart. Jermain Taylor has as much heart as any fighter I’ve ever seen, but since KP put him out, he’s gotten knocked out severely twice more.

Hatton is the same way (which sucks, cause I love’em)- been put down before, but once Money May knocked him stupid, he seems to have lost it. No amount of heart in the world could have gotten him up after Manny Pacquiao’s left hand.

Then, of course, you get fighters like Margarito, who simply needs to be hit with a ton of bricks before he went down… Sugar Shane t’d off on him for nine rounds, hard, powerful, huge shots, and he still wasn’t knocked unconscious. Same goes for DLH- he’s been in wars, but never knocked out. Sugar Shane is the same way- strong chin, can take a punch.

It’s a very weird phenomenon.

^ last paragraph = hence why it’s heart.

heart has nothing to do with the brain smashing into the side of the skull