Advice Wanted - Belly Fat

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

So, there are probably many that have been in my situation, which is great, because then I can get some advice. I’ve always been lean and slim. I was skinny built as a kid and teenager.

Building muscles has always been difficult. Over a period of approx. 15 years I’ve been eating too much unhealthy food which has lead to a ‘lot’ of fat around the waist line. I don’t have a lot of fat any other places on my body.

Stats july 2013:
Male, 38 years. 179cm tall and 78 kgs (5ft 9 inches and 172 lbs) - probably around 15% body fat. Have been working out approx 4 years now. I’m planning to eat healthy clean foods in the time ahead, meaning approx 2gram of protein pr kg bodyweight, fruits and vegetables, rice, potatoes, lean meat, fish, water and healthy fats.

I tried to lose it by dieting earlier this year but what happened was that I lost muscle mass (of which I do not have a lot) and I looked skinny. My belly got a lot smaller too, but I was quite a bit far away from having a real sixpack. But it was not smart to go any further down at 67,7 kgs (150 lbs).

So, the thing is, how do I attack this belly issue? Eating in surplus (lean bulk) probably makes by waistline/belly bigger, which I don’t want. Going on a diet it makes my belly smaller but not small compared to the rest of my body.

How should I eat to pursue more muscle mass and lower body fat considering the belly issue? My maintenance calories are probably around 2100 - 2300 calories a day. What should I aim for wanting more muscle mass and lower body fat? I realize I probably can’t get both things at the same time.

Will be glad for an answer.

2

Ever try reading the hundreds of articles on nutrition on this site?

3

When you tried to lose it by dieting and said that you lost muscle mass. How did your strength levels evolve? Did you lose a lot of strength while losing the weight?

4

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
When you tried to lose it by dieting and said that you lost muscle mass. How did your strength levels evolve? Did you lose a lot of strength while losing the weight?[/quote]

My strength levels wasn’t all that affected at the start, but after been dieting for a while they slowly went down. As did my energy levels. I also lost fat in the process, don’t get me wrong. I definitely lost strength, but I’m not sure if it was a lot. It was noticeable.

5

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Ever try reading the hundreds of articles on nutrition on this site? [/quote]

Any article in particular that you would like to recommend?

6

[quote]sdhweb wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
When you tried to lose it by dieting and said that you lost muscle mass. How did your strength levels evolve? Did you lose a lot of strength while losing the weight?[/quote]

My strength levels wasn’t all that affected at the start, but after been dieting for a while they slowly went down. As did my energy levels. I also lost fat in the process, don’t get me wrong. I definitely lost strength, but I’m not sure if it was a lot. It was noticeable.[/quote]

I`m asking because if you didn’t lose much strength, you likely didn’t use muscle. When dieting down there will be a naturel drop in strength, even if you do not lose muscle. This is due in part to lowered energy levels but also to mechanical disadvantages.

I would expect a 5% loss in strength (on the big lifts), roughly, when dropping 15-20lbs of fat even if you do not lose any muscle. If you lost 5% or less on your big lifts (e.g. big lifts going down by 10-20lbs) then I would say that you didn`t lose any muscle. If you lost between 20 and 30lbs on the big lifts you probaly lost a small amount of muscles.

Still, I would say that it is quite possible that you didn`t lose much muscle at all but that you simply didn’t have as much muscle as you though you had. A lot of people go on a bulking diet and grossly overestimate the amount of muscle they gain and then are surprised when they end up pretty much where they started whem they diet down.

There is what I call a bodyfat dead zone: between 12 and 18% body fat you pretty much look the same; not lean enough to look defined but not fat enough to look out of shape. So during a ‘‘bulking’’ period you could very well gain 15lbs thinking that you gained about 10-15lbs of muscle while in reality you might have gained 10lbs of fat and 5lbs of muscle.

7

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

I`m asking because if you didn’t lose much strength, you likely didn’t use muscle. When dieting down there will be a naturel drop in strength, even if you do not lose muscle. This is due in part to lowered energy levels but also to mechanical disadvantages.

I would expect a 5% loss in strength (on the big lifts), roughly, when dropping 15-20lbs of fat even if you do not lose any muscle. If you lost 5% or less on your big lifts (e.g. big lifts going down by 10-20lbs) then I would say that you didn`t lose any muscle. If you lost between 20 and 30lbs on the big lifts you probaly lost a small amount of muscles.

Still, I would say that it is quite possible that you didn`t lose much muscle at all but that you simply didn’t have as much muscle as you though you had. A lot of people go on a bulking diet and grossly overestimate the amount of muscle they gain and then are surprised when they end up pretty much where they started whem they diet down.

There is what I call a bodyfat dead zone: between 12 and 18% body fat you pretty much look the same; not lean enough to look defined but not fat enough to look out of shape. So during a ‘‘bulking’’ period you could very well gain 15lbs thinking that you gained about 10-15lbs of muscle while in reality you might have gained 10lbs of fat and 5lbs of muscle.[/quote]

Well, I knew I didn’t have much muscle, so I guess some people would say it was stupid of me to diet, while others might say it was OK. But we all agree that I don’t have much muscle mass.

The reason I wanted to diet was because:

  1. I wanted to lose belly fat since I’m quite lean all over.
  2. I wanted to get lower body fat to have a better base for adding mass.

Do you have any specific advice? Should I just eat a lot of healthy food (surplus) and gain muscle mass and don’t care about how my belly looks?

8

I would embark on a slow, steady “bulk” (I don’t like that word) by increasing your daily calories by about 300/day (you will need to bump your calories occasionally as your metabolism adjusts). Just make sure the scale is moving in the right direction…but slowly. I would also take waist measurements along the way to make sure you’re not gaining too much fat. So the bottom line is: focus on putting some muscle on your frame, with minimal fat, so next time you diet/cut/lean out you actually look bigger and not just a slightly smaller version of yourself.

And if CT says anything contrary, throw out everything I said and listen to him.

9

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]sdhweb wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
When you tried to lose it by dieting and said that you lost muscle mass. How did your strength levels evolve? Did you lose a lot of strength while losing the weight?[/quote]

My strength levels wasn’t all that affected at the start, but after been dieting for a while they slowly went down. As did my energy levels. I also lost fat in the process, don’t get me wrong. I definitely lost strength, but I’m not sure if it was a lot. It was noticeable.[/quote]

I`m asking because if you didn’t lose much strength, you likely didn’t use muscle. When dieting down there will be a naturel drop in strength, even if you do not lose muscle. This is due in part to lowered energy levels but also to mechanical disadvantages.

I would expect a 5% loss in strength (on the big lifts), roughly, when dropping 15-20lbs of fat even if you do not lose any muscle. If you lost 5% or less on your big lifts (e.g. big lifts going down by 10-20lbs) then I would say that you didn`t lose any muscle. If you lost between 20 and 30lbs on the big lifts you probaly lost a small amount of muscles.

Still, I would say that it is quite possible that you didn`t lose much muscle at all but that you simply didn’t have as much muscle as you though you had. A lot of people go on a bulking diet and grossly overestimate the amount of muscle they gain and then are surprised when they end up pretty much where they started whem they diet down.

There is what I call a bodyfat dead zone: between 12 and 18% body fat you pretty much look the same; not lean enough to look defined but not fat enough to look out of shape. So during a ‘‘bulking’’ period you could very well gain 15lbs thinking that you gained about 10-15lbs of muscle while in reality you might have gained 10lbs of fat and 5lbs of muscle.[/quote]

This is my EXACT experience. I dropped about 30lbs since January and noticed, if anything, I’ve gotten stronger, but still lacked the 6-pack look i thought I’d have, even though 7-site caliper said I started off with 16% bf…smh.

I think you did a good thing by dropping the fat. As another poster said, focus now on adding a small surplus each day and getting plenty of rest to slowly put on muscle. And when I say slow, it’s going to be at a snails pace.

10

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]sdhweb wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
When you tried to lose it by dieting and said that you lost muscle mass. How did your strength levels evolve? Did you lose a lot of strength while losing the weight?[/quote]

My strength levels wasn’t all that affected at the start, but after been dieting for a while they slowly went down. As did my energy levels. I also lost fat in the process, don’t get me wrong. I definitely lost strength, but I’m not sure if it was a lot. It was noticeable.[/quote]

I`m asking because if you didn’t lose much strength, you likely didn’t use muscle. When dieting down there will be a naturel drop in strength, even if you do not lose muscle. This is due in part to lowered energy levels but also to mechanical disadvantages.

I would expect a 5% loss in strength (on the big lifts), roughly, when dropping 15-20lbs of fat even if you do not lose any muscle. If you lost 5% or less on your big lifts (e.g. big lifts going down by 10-20lbs) then I would say that you didn`t lose any muscle. If you lost between 20 and 30lbs on the big lifts you probaly lost a small amount of muscles.

Still, I would say that it is quite possible that you didn`t lose much muscle at all but that you simply didn’t have as much muscle as you though you had. A lot of people go on a bulking diet and grossly overestimate the amount of muscle they gain and then are surprised when they end up pretty much where they started whem they diet down.

There is what I call a bodyfat dead zone: between 12 and 18% body fat you pretty much look the same; not lean enough to look defined but not fat enough to look out of shape. So during a ‘‘bulking’’ period you could very well gain 15lbs thinking that you gained about 10-15lbs of muscle while in reality you might have gained 10lbs of fat and 5lbs of muscle.[/quote]

This is my EXACT experience. I dropped about 30lbs since January and noticed, if anything, I’ve gotten stronger, but still lacked the 6-pack look i thought I’d have, even though 7-site caliper said I started off with 16% bf…smh.

I think you did a good thing by dropping the fat. As another poster said, focus now on adding a small surplus each day and getting plenty of rest to slowly put on muscle. And when I say slow, it’s going to be at a snails pace.
[/quote]

From experience, most gym rats GROSSLY underestimate how much weight they must lose to be ripped or even have that 6-pack. They see the beginning of a vein in their biceps and slight abs shadown when under perfect lighting and they think that they are within 15lbs of being shredded. As a rule of thumb, most people without any bodybuilding prep experience need to lose 10-15bs MORE than they think they do to get shredded.

11

A key question on my end is whether I continue to bulk

May 2012- 205 lbs, 11.7% bodyfat

May 2013- 180 lbs, 5.5% bodyfat (competed in early May)

July 2013- 190 lbs

That means I had 10 more lbs of lean mass at 205 lbs but with 15lbs of fat. . I’m now at 190bs.

Should I keep bulking to 200lbs or just keep at status quo?

12

This thread has some really great info in it. CT, I really appreciate the amount of specific information provided in your responses. The bit about how much lifts should be expected to drop while in a caloric deficit is really great and I’ll be sure to keep that in mind in the future.

13

[quote]ghost87 wrote:
A key question on my end is whether I continue to bulk

May 2012- 205 lbs, 11.7% bodyfat

May 2013- 180 lbs, 5.5% bodyfat (competed in early May)

July 2013- 190 lbs

That means I had 10 more lbs of lean mass at 205 lbs but with 15lbs of fat. . I’m now at 190bs.

Should I keep bulking to 200lbs or just keep at status quo? [/quote]

Are you stealing my thread? :wink:

14

So what do you say CT? Do you agree with Tyler23 ?

15

[quote]sdhweb wrote:
So what do you say CT? Do you agree with Tyler23 ?[/quote]

Yes and no. I agree with the general principle (read my The Truth About Bulking article) here are some things I want to bring up though…

  1. I do not like the term “bulking” in general… words have power and to me, bulking just puts you into a “I can get fat if I want, I’m bulking” frame of mind.

  2. Lean bulk doesn’t make sense to me either. I know that it is used quite a bit but it still doesn’t make sense… “lean” and “bulk” are two mutually excluding terms… bulking means adding bulk, or becoming “bulky” (just a step away from being husky) in the hope of adding more muscle… “lean” means staying at a low body fat level. You cannot become bulky and be lean at the same time. You can be bigger but not bulkier… I don’t know… maybe it’s just me being a french Canadian not understanding the english language properly!

  3. Can we stop pigeon-holing everything. Why do we have to say "I’m bulking: or “I’m cutting”… is it because we like to talk about ourselves? Because we need to be secured by using a word that outs our efforts into a specific category? I don’t know… I say eat to build muscle if you goal is to have more muscle. Don’t make the diet the goal, make the diet a tool. Eat what you need to build muscle, you know that you are in the right direction if your strength is progressing or if you are able to do more high quality work… eat to improve the way you perform in the gym.

  4. The body’s thermodynamics are not linear… adding 300 calories is fine an well but on some days your body might require 3000 to stay at homeostasis, on some days the same 3000 will be a surplus and others a deficit. And I’m not even talking about your activity level… the body simply absorbs and use energy at different rates depending on many factors.

But in general the message is sound… gradually add nutrients to your food intake until you find a point where it starts to lead t an unacceptable rate of fat gain.

16

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]sdhweb wrote:
So what do you say CT? Do you agree with Tyler23 ?[/quote]

Yes and no. I agree with the general principle (read my The Truth About Bulking article) here are some things I want to bring up though…

  1. I do not like the term “bulking” in general… words have power and to me, bulking just puts you into a “I can get fat if I want, I’m bulking” frame of mind.

  2. Lean bulk doesn’t make sense to me either. I know that it is used quite a bit but it still doesn’t make sense… “lean” and “bulk” are two mutually excluding terms… bulking means adding bulk, or becoming “bulky” (just a step away from being husky) in the hope of adding more muscle… “lean” means staying at a low body fat level. You cannot become bulky and be lean at the same time. You can be bigger but not bulkier… I don’t know… maybe it’s just me being a french Canadian not understanding the english language properly!

  3. Can we stop pigeon-holing everything. Why do we have to say "I’m bulking: or “I’m cutting”… is it because we like to talk about ourselves? Because we need to be secured by using a word that outs our efforts into a specific category? I don’t know… I say eat to build muscle if you goal is to have more muscle. Don’t make the diet the goal, make the diet a tool. Eat what you need to build muscle, you know that you are in the right direction if your strength is progressing or if you are able to do more high quality work… eat to improve the way you perform in the gym.

. [/quote]
no , your understanding on english is fine, the term “lean bulk” is a foolish term, used by those who think if they eat a lot of 'clean " foods they will somehow magically get big and stay lean.

3- i think people always want to be bulking or cutting because its more exciting to them, people who want to make big changes to their physique, dont want to swallow the pill that its going to take A LONG TIME TO SEE BIG CHANGES. so therefore they want to havea huge bulk or crash diet.

17

I am officially coining the phrase “Lean Cutting”. Use it as you wish, just give me credit for it :wink: All joking aside, the bulking, cutting, lean this, lean that, is a recipe for disaster to 95% of gym rats. One thing that I would suggest (**disclaimer - I know most can figure this out on their own) is to save the money and educate yourself. Hire a coach that has proven success and go through a phase.

Prep, size/strength, whatever. the knowledge that you can gain from food combinations, adjustment, the whens and whys to make them, etc., etc., is worth the money. For instance, JM will do 12 weeks for $750 or 24 weeks for $1,100 (according to his site today 08//08/13) for someone that want to add some size while keeping BF under control.

Ken Hill does something very similar too. Again, I know that many people can figure this stuff out on their own but for those that are winging it and constantly change their diets after the last internet “get shredded now” diet, this may be an option to consider that will leave you with dietary knowledge for quite some time. PLUS EVERYTHING CT SAID :wink:

18

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]sdhweb wrote:
So what do you say CT? Do you agree with Tyler23 ?[/quote]

Yes and no. I agree with the general principle (read my The Truth About Bulking article) here are some things I want to bring up though…

  1. I do not like the term “bulking” in general… words have power and to me, bulking just puts you into a “I can get fat if I want, I’m bulking” frame of mind.

  2. Lean bulk doesn’t make sense to me either. I know that it is used quite a bit but it still doesn’t make sense… “lean” and “bulk” are two mutually excluding terms… bulking means adding bulk, or becoming “bulky” (just a step away from being husky) in the hope of adding more muscle… “lean” means staying at a low body fat level. You cannot become bulky and be lean at the same time. You can be bigger but not bulkier… I don’t know… maybe it’s just me being a french Canadian not understanding the english language properly!

  3. Can we stop pigeon-holing everything. Why do we have to say "I’m bulking: or “I’m cutting”… is it because we like to talk about ourselves? Because we need to be secured by using a word that outs our efforts into a specific category? I don’t know… I say eat to build muscle if you goal is to have more muscle. Don’t make the diet the goal, make the diet a tool. Eat what you need to build muscle, you know that you are in the right direction if your strength is progressing or if you are able to do more high quality work… eat to improve the way you perform in the gym.

. [/quote]
no , your understanding on english is fine, the term “lean bulk” is a foolish term, used by those who think if they eat a lot of 'clean " foods they will somehow magically get big and stay lean.

3- i think people always want to be bulking or cutting because its more exciting to them, people who want to make big changes to their physique, dont want to swallow the pill that its going to take A LONG TIME TO SEE BIG CHANGES. so therefore they want to havea huge bulk or crash diet. [/quote]

Even more foolish is the term ‘clean food’. Are they using soap?

19

I think you people are too anal about the wording. I think the terms “cutting”, “lean bulking” vs “dirty bulking”, and “clean foods” do have some reasonable meanings behind them. The labels you put on definitions shouldn’t matter - call them A,B,C,D or whatever. Now, believing the definitions behind said labels are meaningless is a different matter.

20

It is marketing.
A, buy magazine to get big fast.
B, buy magazine to get lean.
C buy supplement to overcome your failure.
D buy suppléments to improve your mood.
E rent a trainer/baby sitter to take your décisions.
I mean no disrespect to trainers but unless you are in the top 10-20 in the world your trainer/your employee is likely to be nice to keep her/his income coming.

Plus there are code words, bulking is juicing off season Under radar.
Cut is clean pre test.

Wake up.