Again, do post a video of the lifts you have problems with as you are a beginner, not an intermediate tweaking his technique. You may be doing the entire lift wrong and not being aware of it. Its the best way anyone can judge your technique and point out flaws. From your description of how you deadlift im already guessing you are trying to squat the weight but a video will tell much more.
[quote]Patch Adams wrote:
Are you using chalk for your deadlifts? [/quote]
Never used chalk. I am 95% sure my gym wouldnāt allow it though, its a small, cheap, commercial gym. Loads of bad advice gets chucked around here I try to keep my earphones in mouth shut and just do my work and get out.
Dt79:
Canāt really describe my deadlift form over the net I will post a video later. I bend my knees, sort of hinge myself forward, toes are under or just past the bar, I start the lift with my hammies I finish off more with my back and I lock it out with my lats. I try to picture thrusting my hips forward while i do the lift. I use a mixed grip. Next time I am deadlifting is Tuesday so I will record a video then. I have an old deadlift video from about a month ago I might upload that tomorrow since my form hasnāt been tweaked a whole lot since then.
I will be adding calves to stronglifts now. Should I start off at a moderate weight, not too heavy, and add 2.5kg every session stronglifts style? I plan to do calves 3x a week like I used to.
[quote]Massthetics wrote:
[quote]Patch Adams wrote:
Are you using chalk for your deadlifts? [/quote]
Never used chalk. I am 95% sure my gym wouldnāt allow it though, its a small, cheap, commercial gym. Loads of bad advice gets chucked around here I try to keep my earphones in mouth shut and just do my work and get out.
Dt79:
Canāt really describe my deadlift form over the net I will post a video later. I bend my knees, sort of hinge myself forward, toes are under or just past the bar, I start the lift with my hammies I finish off more with my back and I lock it out with my lats. I try to picture thrusting my hips forward while i do the lift. I use a mixed grip. Next time I am deadlifting is Tuesday so I will record a video then. I have an old deadlift video from about a month ago I might upload that tomorrow since my form hasnāt been tweaked a whole lot since then.
I will be adding calves to stronglifts now. Should I start off at a moderate weight, not too heavy, and add 2.5kg every session stronglifts style? I plan to do calves 3x a week like I used to.[/quote]
Which is why a vid is important. What you think you are doin may not be what you are actually doing. If you are truly enging your hamstrings and glutes to push your hips foward, you knees wouldnt be buckling inwards.
Its really best that you post the vid in the powerlifting forum and seek the advice of the really strong guys on you setup for the 3 big lifts.
As for stronglifts, just follow the program as written for weight progression. Adding calves is fine.
Oh and the bar should not be so far away from your body unless you have really big legs. It should be mid foot or about an inch from your shins when you are standing upright depending on your leverages.
Use chalk, it will help a lot! Just make sure the staff donāt see you putting it on and clean up any mess after.
The only reason a person would ever need to avoid straps on any dead lifting training is if they compete in the sport of powerlifting, and even most powerlifters use straps for a good percentage of their training. I use straps for most rep work over about 5 reps. Most, if not all, of the strongest lifters in the world use straps in training.
The only times I donāt use straps are if the weight is light enough that it isnāt really necessary (basically anything 315 or below), or if Iām testing my grip on a heavy single. If Iām going for anything between about 315-450 for reps, Iāll usually use straps. If Iām exceeding 450, Iām likely only doing triples or less. If Iām under 315, I just donāt need straps.
Hereās the reason: deadlifting can certainly improve grip and forearm development, but it can also take a significant toll on your hands and wrists, in a very negative way. If I avoid straps completely, over time Iāll drain the shit out of my hands, or I wonāt be able to recover for my next workout, or typing will hurt, or whatever. Maybe at your age this stuff wonāt really surface, but sooner or later it will. Straps are just another tool in the toolbox. I canāt imagine avoiding them completely, ESPECIALLY if I couldnāt use chalk.
[quote] If you are truly enging your hamstrings and glutes to push your hips foward, you knees wouldnt be buckling inwards.
[/quote]
Yup.
Why no interest in using straps? For a lot of people thatās like having no interest in getting a bigger deadlift
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
[quote] If you are truly enging your hamstrings and glutes to push your hips foward, you knees wouldnt be buckling inwards.
[/quote]
Yup.
[/quote]
I actually disagree here. I think it takes more than āengagingā glutes and hips for some people to keep their knees out. For me, it was just practicing the squat over and over again while making a specific effort to push my knees out. I did this with light weight for a long time to groove the movement, and on heavier lifting, even today, forcing my knees out is still a mental cue. Everyoneās different, and the solution of hip and glute engagement isnāt perfect, or suitable for everyone.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
[quote] If you are truly enging your hamstrings and glutes to push your hips foward, you knees wouldnt be buckling inwards.
[/quote]
Yup.
[/quote]
I actually disagree here. I think it takes more than āengagingā glutes and hips for some people to keep their knees out. For me, it was just practicing the squat over and over again while making a specific effort to push my knees out. I did this with light weight for a long time to groove the movement, and on heavier lifting, even today, forcing my knees out is still a mental cue. Everyoneās different, and the solution of hip and glute engagement isnāt perfect, or suitable for everyone.[/quote]
Was talking about his deadlift. I do the same thing you described in the squat.
From his post, he says he sets up with the bar over his toes and finishes with his lower back. Sounds like he starts too low,gets pulled foward and uses mainly knee extension and lower back, hence the knees buckling. Wouldnt know until he posts a vid though.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
[quote] If you are truly enging your hamstrings and glutes to push your hips foward, you knees wouldnt be buckling inwards.
[/quote]
Yup.
[/quote]
I actually disagree here. I think it takes more than āengagingā glutes and hips for some people to keep their knees out. For me, it was just practicing the squat over and over again while making a specific effort to push my knees out. I did this with light weight for a long time to groove the movement, and on heavier lifting, even today, forcing my knees out is still a mental cue. Everyoneās different, and the solution of hip and glute engagement isnāt perfect, or suitable for everyone.[/quote]
Was talking about his deadlift. I do the same thing you described in the squat.
From his post, he says he sets up with the bar over his toes and finishes with his lower back. Sounds like he starts too low,gets pulled foward and uses mainly knee extension and lower back, hence the knees buckling. Wouldnt know until he posts a vid though.[/quote]
I got ya. I missed that the OP said this was happening on squats AND deadlifts, I thought it was just squats. Iāve never experienced knee caving on deadlifts, even when Iāve gotten way out of position. I have trouble imagining what this would look like. That doesnāt make a lot of sense to me. Knee shaking, yes. Obviously youāre right, a video would help.
Thanks guys. I just got to school I will upload deadlift video when I get home. Tomorrow I am training alone so I will try to get a squat video if I can.
The reason I donāt want to use straps is I basically want to strengthen my grip and my hands. I donāt see the point of training if you use straps, weight belts, etc. ESPECIALLY if you want to be functional, which I really do.
Flipcollar - So are you saying that deadlifting raw, is bad for your hands and wrists? Just trying to understand because I thought as long as your form is good you canāt injure yourself.
The buckling issue is SLOWLY improving, maybe because of my form slowly getting better over time or any muscular imbalance that is causing it is evening out. However it is improving at a slow pace and there is probably something I can do to help it. I got some very mild, knee pain on the inner part of my knees where my femur and tibia join. I suffered a knee injury 2 years ago which put me out of ALL sports for good few months the injury was mostly ligament based. It feels similar.
Did a bit of research looks like its my ACL that is sore. This gets put under a lot of stress when my knees buckle in, the way I understand it. Again, this is nothing major. I have it on both knees but more so on my left. Half the day I donāt even notice it, and its never excruciating the pain never exceeds a 2.5/10. Its just there, and its mildly annoying. As my knee buckling issue is slowly, slowly remedying itself (not fast enough for my liking) so is my knee pain.
Hopefully I made this clear, I just woke up guys.
EDIT!!! : I meant to say MCL ligament.
[quote]Massthetics wrote:
Flipcollar - So are you saying that deadlifting raw, is bad for your hands and wrists? Just trying to understand because I thought as long as your form is good you canāt injure yourself.
[/quote]
Itās bad for HIS hands and wrists. Others have no problems. Iāve had similar problems from overuse injuries (good form, just too much of it).
You could always try doing grip work if thatās limiting you, but as others have said, unless youāre going to be a competing powerlifter, straps, etc., are a tool. Granted, I think it is probably too early, given your strength, for this, but thatās just imho. If youāre worried about functionality, can you define what you mean by āfunctional?ā
Also, I would say that having a chronic injury at 16 is a problem. Have you had it fully checked out? A teenage body can handle a lot of stress and shouldnāt be having chronic issues.
[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
[quote]Massthetics wrote:
Flipcollar - So are you saying that deadlifting raw, is bad for your hands and wrists? Just trying to understand because I thought as long as your form is good you canāt injure yourself.
[/quote]
Itās bad for HIS hands and wrists. Others have no problems. Iāve had similar problems from overuse injuries (good form, just too much of it).
You could always try doing grip work if thatās limiting you, but as others have said, unless youāre going to be a competing powerlifter, straps, etc., are a tool. Granted, I think it is probably too early, given your strength, for this, but thatās just imho. If youāre worried about functionality, can you define what you mean by āfunctional?ā
Also, I would say that having a chronic injury at 16 is a problem. Have you had it fully checked out? A teenage body can handle a lot of stress and shouldnāt be having chronic issues.
[/quote]
Fair enough about the wrists thing. By functional I mean for example, I do a lot of spearfishing and diving. Power and endurance in your quads essential, and very strong grip is a must. Not for the diving aspect but for the spearfishing part your hands must be strong. Also, just in terms of carrying heavy loads in the real world when moving houses etc grip is always one of the main limiting factors.
As for my knees, I am in year 11 at the moment (grade for you americans) I got the injury in year 9. It was about a month after I discovered lifting and fell in love with it but had to stop because of my knee. It was a soccer accident I didnāt quite dislocate my knee cap (collision into right knee) but it came close. It was unstable, ligaments were heavily strained, strained quadriceps (easily healed), and some minor nerve damage in my knees. I was on crutches for 2-3 weeks then I could walk on my own but at a slow pace. I wasnāt able to actually RUN for about 3 months.
It constantly was unstable, and had the strangest nearly chronic pain. I didnāt feel comfortable putting any sort of weight or stress on it until 9 months after my injury. I felt 100% healed 6 months after the injury, but I waited 9 months on the safe side. I can safely say it is completely healed and it isnāt related to my current issue especially because its on both knees, and its in a completely unrelated part compared to my last injury.
My point of bringing it up is because that it was mainly a ligament injury (my old one) and this one feels similar and I have similar symptoms. It is just about 5% of the pain as before. I was in tears for about 2 weeks after the injury if I moved my knee the wrong way. Or moved it at all, frankly. I was on crutches + this super stiff the stabiliser thing my knee could not bend at all when It was on. I had it on most of the time.
Have you thought about doing a gallon of milk a day? Does wonders for overall mass.
There are many ways to use straps, just as there are many ways to use every tool.
Yesterday, just as a for-instance, how I actually used my straps.
I started without using any straps. I did sets of 3, starting at 135, 185, 225, 275, then did single reps at 315 and 335. I made a couple attempts at 355.
Then I went back to doing 3s, at 235, 245, 255, 265. Around this point, my grip was starting to wear down, so I added the straps, and did two more sets of triples, at 275 and 285.
So you see, I used my grip, and trained my grip. I got in 10 sets without straps. And then when my grip was going out, I added straps and continued. Hopefully that explains a few things for you.
[quote]Massthetics wrote:
The reason I donāt want to use straps is I basically want to strengthen my grip and my hands. I donāt see the point of training if you use straps, weight belts, etc. ESPECIALLY if you want to be functional, which I really do.[/quote]
If you lift heavier weights, then you are stronger. It doesnāt matter if you use straps or weight belts.
I mean, itās not like the belt completely takes over for your core. It merely makes it more stable by increasing internal pressure. Neither does the strap completely remove your hands from the equation- it merely makes it impossible for the bars to slip from your hands if you use the straps properly. Youāre still gonna have to grip that bar as hard as you damned can.
[quote]Massthetics wrote: Just trying to understand because I thought as long as your form is good you canāt injure yourself.
[/quote]
It should always be noted that good form REDUCES chances of injury, while bad form INCREASES chances of injury.
But thereās always a chance, especially if youāre pushing weight closer and closer to your true 1rm.
Chances of you hurting yourself with good form at weights 50% or lower of your max isā¦ minimal, to say the least.
Chances of you hurting yourself at weights 95% or so of your true max is not insignificant. You are pushing yourself to and potentially beyond your supposed limits after all. Plus, there probably isnāt such a thing as a āgood formā when youāre pushing true 1rmā¦ Unless youāre Andrey Malanichev.
As for the grip- Just sneak chalk in and clean up after yourself. Itās not that hard to clean; just a couple of tissues soaked with water and a couple of tissues to dry it off. Get two plastic bags or something and chalk up inside one bag. A bigger bag gives you more space and less probable chalk cloud.
Though, having seen a lady deadlifting and then leaving an absolute mess behind her made me realize why gyms are so anal about chalk. Just donāt be an asshole and no one will mind.
Massthetics, you have gotten a lot of very good advice in this thread. Better yet, it looks like your attitude has shifted in response to that advice. Youāre asking the right questions. Stick around. Read, learn, and apply what you learn. Many people posting here were once in your shoes as the beginner who read muscle mags and tried āeverythingā in four months.
Progress in the weight room, and in your physique, is earned with hard work. Dan John once said āI said it was simple; not easy.ā That applies for you here. Lift. Eat. Repeat. Donāt overthink your programming right now; add weight to the bar on the big lifts and size will come. That doesnāt mean you should neglect lagging body parts, but donāt make your biceps the focus at the expense of increasing your bench press.
It may seem like progress comes slowly to you, but learn to enjoy the process and the journey. Picture yourself a year from now, 20 pounds heavier and bench pressing, say, 155 for reps. That would be good, right? Well, that means increasing your BW by 1.5 pounds a month and your bench by 5 pounds a month. Progress that would barely feel noticeable in the short term, but will add up in the long run.
Good luck and keep learning!!
If your gym doesnāt like you using chalk, then use liquid chalk not the best but it will help.
BUT your over thinking pretty much all of this, GO PICK HEAVY SHIT UP AND PUT IT DOWN AGAIN. Noob gains, functionally strong, grip training, bulking, calf size, even arm size. Your 6ā2 and you weigh 150 lbs! eat more+ lift more = strong.
Keep a food log, its not difficult and it means that if you ābulkā there is a good chance it will be done cleaner than just randomly stuffing as much food in your mouth as you can. Its almost certain your not eating as much as you think so just do it.
You are not giving anything enough time to actually work, your impatient, your 16, slow the fuck down and realise that its not 10 weeks to a beach body that matters its ten years to a bigger bench ( paraphrasing Mr Wendler) focus on the big lifts, dead lift, squat, bench and OHP (if its on strong lifts if not follow the plan) use dips and chin ups and if you really want curls and calf work but STOP OVER THINKING THIS.
[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
[quote]Massthetics wrote:
Flipcollar - So are you saying that deadlifting raw, is bad for your hands and wrists? Just trying to understand because I thought as long as your form is good you canāt injure yourself.
[/quote]
Itās bad for HIS hands and wrists. Others have no problems. Iāve had similar problems from overuse injuries (good form, just too much of it).
[/quote]
lol, yes, itās a personal thing. Iām also 30, so that makes a difference. And really, Iām not saying itās BAD for my hands, or that Iāve been injured. I can tell you specifically when I decided to incorporate straps. I basically alternate lower and upper body days, and I was often doing heavy dumbbell rows for high reps the day after heavy deadlifting. I also did farmers walks for conditioning and grip training outside of the deadlifts and rows. This was simply taxing on my body after months and months and months. I COULD have kept doing it without straps, but why? I have a strong grip as it is, and Iām capable of holding 600 lbs with a mixed grip. Why would I want to wear my hands out and feel shitty if I donāt have to? My point is that you can train your grip to be strong and still use straps for some lifting. At this point, I never dumbbell row without them.
Hereās the other thing. If grip is your limiting factor, then that means if you avoid straps, youāre missing out on gains everywhere else in your body, because your grip is the only thing keeping you from doing more work. Why would you do that to yourself? If grip is a weak point, train it with farmers walks, and use straps on your deadlifts. You can get the best of both worlds that way. I used to be exactly like you regarding how I looked at deadlifting. For years I deadlifted double overhand, no chalk, no straps, no belt. I stalled in the high 3ās.
I added chalk, and consequently added 30 lbs almost immediately to my bench (straps would have done the same). Straps also enabled me to hit 315 for 20 reps. A belt added 40 more lbs to my deadlift. When I deadlifted double overhand, I would have to drop a heavy weight as soon as I completed the rep. With a mixed grip, I can hold it almost indefinitely. I went from 400 to 500 in less than a year. And my grip is still a strong point.
The whole point is, get stronger no matter what it takes. If you have to use tools to do so, use them.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
[quote]Massthetics wrote:
Flipcollar - So are you saying that deadlifting raw, is bad for your hands and wrists? Just trying to understand because I thought as long as your form is good you canāt injure yourself.
[/quote]
Itās bad for HIS hands and wrists. Others have no problems. Iāve had similar problems from overuse injuries (good form, just too much of it).
[/quote]
lol, yes, itās a personal thing. Iām also 30, so that makes a difference. And really, Iām not saying itās BAD for my hands, or that Iāve been injured. I can tell you specifically when I decided to incorporate straps. I basically alternate lower and upper body days, and I was often doing heavy dumbbell rows for high reps the day after heavy deadlifting. I also did farmers walks for conditioning and grip training outside of the deadlifts and rows. This was simply taxing on my body after months and months and months. I COULD have kept doing it without straps, but why? I have a strong grip as it is, and Iām capable of holding 600 lbs with a mixed grip. Why would I want to wear my hands out and feel shitty if I donāt have to? My point is that you can train your grip to be strong and still use straps for some lifting. At this point, I never dumbbell row without them.
Hereās the other thing. If grip is your limiting factor, then that means if you avoid straps, youāre missing out on gains everywhere else in your body, because your grip is the only thing keeping you from doing more work. Why would you do that to yourself? If grip is a weak point, train it with farmers walks, and use straps on your deadlifts. You can get the best of both worlds that way. I used to be exactly like you regarding how I looked at deadlifting. For years I deadlifted double overhand, no chalk, no straps, no belt. I stalled in the high 3ās.
I added chalk, and consequently added 30 lbs almost immediately to my bench (straps would have done the same). Straps also enabled me to hit 315 for 20 reps. A belt added 40 more lbs to my deadlift. When I deadlifted double overhand, I would have to drop a heavy weight as soon as I completed the rep. With a mixed grip, I can hold it almost indefinitely. I went from 400 to 500 in less than a year. And my grip is still a strong point.
The whole point is, get stronger no matter what it takes. If you have to use tools to do so, use them.[/quote]
solid. will consider investing in straps. Anything I should look out for? Or are straps just straps and theyre all the same? I would feel like a fuckwit being 155lb usnig straps for a deadlift which is light to most people but oh wellā¦
Nathan.young - I canāt picture myself drinking more than 1 litre of milk in a day lol. notsureifsrs
Lorez - Useful information
Magick - In my opinion avoiding a weight belt is the best thing you can do for strengthā¦ Heavy compounds are a good ab exercise I wouldnāt want to use a weight belt, it keeps your core stable but if you use it often your going to become dependant on it. I donāt understand its use in competitions either, if you canāt lift the weight raw/beltless, your simply too weak to fucking lift it.
Wonāt be able to sneak chalk in one of the guys who works there trains there half the time when I am also training.
Activitiesguy - Thanks, good advice. Those expectations for a year from now are pretty low though ^_^. Speaking of expectations, I have a few goals:
I started 5 months ago at 57kg.
I am now 70.5-71kg.
At the end of this year I want to be 90-95kg while still remaining lean. Not ripped but lean. Is this reasonable? I did the maths at my current pace it is possible but my gains are going to slow down eventually. On the other hand I havenāt been stuffing myself 100% balls to the wall.
I have one more week of stronglifts then I am going camping for 10 days so I wonāt be lifting. Which is good though, I find taking time off every 2 months actually boosts my strength. I have read articles advocating this doing things such as 12 weeks on 1 week off.
When I come back after my 10 day break I want to get back on it for a solid 11-12 months. I want to have a 100kg squat by then. havenāt thought of goals for my other lifts because squat is what I care most about and the one I enjoy / look forward to the most.
Jose969 - Yeah I understand and I do do that, eat a lot, pick heavy shit up and put it back down. But I am like this with every hobby I take up I have to learn everything even if im a beginner I still try to learn things I donāt need to learn yet. Call it overthinking but I call it being prepared being armed with as much knowledge as possible.
P.S. Guys. I was going to upload deadlift form video tonight, an old video I had but my form has changed too much since then I wonāt bother uploading. My next deadlift day is tuesday. I am going to the gym tomorrow so I will try to take a squat video If I am going with my partner.
EDIT: Since i started stronglifts ( i believe i am in my 4th week now or about to start my 4th week) I have gained 1 and 1/3 inches on my quads :).