Abs - Why Do Isolation Exercises?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
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[quote]Hagar wrote:
My mid section always looks tighter when I work in abs. If I go a while without working them directly, they get out of shape. If I don’t work them regularly, I tend to get cramps with some movements especially while doing crunches for the first time in 2 or 3 weeks. The muscles themselves tend to get softer too. [/quote]
+1

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I never do isolation exercises for my Abs because the basic lifts (e.g. deadlift/squat/pullup) do them plenty. Why do people do them so much? I’ve seen so many people do the crunches (all forms) etc and hardly any of them even have low enough BF % to be able to see them!

I know some people go on about how the ABs need to be strong to stablize the body etc but the basic lifts train them anyway…besides, the same “coaches” recommending training the Abs separately are the same ones recommending you do flys with 5lb dumbells on a swiss exercise ball LOL (honestly, I saw this chubby guy doing that as advised and spotted by the gym owner!)[/quote]

  1. Strong abs will help your basic lifts.
  2. Properly trained abs are essential for lumbar spine health, prevention of pelvis postural problems, etc.
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The only thing that isn’t covered by the big 3 lifts is your neck… do direct neck work you pansies!

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lol@direct neck work, seriously? my neck grows just from doing deadlifts. if so many people dont train calves, forearms, or abs what makes you think theyll do something like neck?

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[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
lol@direct neck work, seriously? my neck grows just from doing deadlifts. if so many people dont train calves, forearms, or abs what makes you think theyll do something like neck?

[/quote]

Lol, I don’t expect people to do neck work. Thats why they’re pansies!

45

[quote]Boffin wrote:
Do you think I might indirectly train my abs while doing tricep kick-backs? With heavy (think pink DB’s here) loads?

[/quote]

yep but make sure you don’t exceed 5 lbs on the dumbell or you’ll get too bulky

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[quote]forevernade wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
lol@direct neck work, seriously? my neck grows just from doing deadlifts. if so many people dont train calves, forearms, or abs what makes you think theyll do something like neck?

Lol, I don’t expect people to do neck work. Thats why they’re pansies![/quote]

I actually just recently purchased a neck harness and when I finish setting up my home gym I will be doing neck training probably twice a week.

47

Ya know what? Henriques is right. This exactly the same discussion about bicep exercises if you just swap a few words around.

Why do people go out of their way to find a reason not to work a body part directly as if harm would somehow befall them if they did?

Right now I do one utterly brutal weighted drop set of low decline cable crunches a week for abs. Wednesday was 2 45’s and 2 25’s. Got 18 reps and had my daughter yank the 25’s. Got 11 more, gave up the cable and got 9 more after that. They were still a little sore yesterday. They are hard and strong and getting stronger though they have some fat over them. Why would I have a protracted debate with myself about whether this is a good idea or not. Takes like 2 or 3 minutes.

48

because not every muscle needs to be worked. i dont work my forearms, i never have and i never will. my forearms are big, my forearms are also about a foot long, so when i say theyre big its saying something. some people have naturally good features the most common being calves, forearms or abs.

i also think if you have one of those 3 features which is really bad then typical methods for growth just arent going to work. i never see people with big claves who do set after set of calf raises. i never see people with big forearms who do wrist rolls and reverse curls. i never see people with good abs who do a zillion crunches. but when i see people with big forearms its cause they grip heavy ass weight. when i see people with big abs its can they do lifts with heavy ass weight, and im trying out my own calf builder now and guess what - it involves heavy ass weight.

so what im saying is if you have a good muscle naturally obviously you dont have to train it but if you have a naturally laggy muscle the traditonal methods wont work either.

49

They train the abs differently. When I do squats the DOMS I get is very deep inside of my body and a different kind of soreness. Doing machine crunches or whatever makes the muscle closer to the skin more sore.

50

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Wow that apology was impressively civil.

I forgot civility existed since I joined the interwebs.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing. It actually made me quite happy as I was a little offended by the “Jesus Christ” comment as well. Thanks Tube, you the man.

51

[quote]mrsony wrote:
I have been training my abs like crazy for the last six months. I have been trying to bring out my bottom two abs. I am quite lean (~12%bf) but I guess I am not genetically gifted to have the bottom two abs. Instead I have to be content with a four pack. Life sucks![/quote]

I am currently crying and eating cheese at the same time just for you.

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[quote]Tube wrote:
its_just_me wrote:

What do you mean? I know you’re being sarcastic but I don’t consider missing out some crunches as slacking when you’re already doing all the core building exercises…what’s wrong with that?

I’m not being sarcastic. Your last thread was “why do deadlifts” and consisted of “why do people do deadlifts I don’t do them and I am hella swole” and now this thread is “why do ab work” and consists of “why do people do ab work I don’t do it and I am hella swole”. It’s pointless. Can you build a good back and legs without deadlifts? Yes. Is it ideal? No. Can you build strong abdominals without isolation work? Yes. Is it ideal? No. Bringing up idiots on bosu balls doing nothing but crunches for hours isn’t relevant, because they aren’t serious, knowledgeable trainees. Saying “most of the guys working their abs don’t even have a low enough body fat for them to show” is also assinine. It’s equivalent to saying “Why do people with fat legs do squats? Their quadriceps aren’t even showing through!” For the record, I do deadlift and don’t do ab work. The only reason I don’t work my abs is laziness, nothing more.

Worry about your own training and spend less time thinking about guys who don’t train how you do are idiots.[/quote]

Holy shit… you totally just man-handled this entire thread.

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[quote]Tube wrote:
its_just_me wrote:

What do you mean? I know you’re being sarcastic but I don’t consider missing out some crunches as slacking when you’re already doing all the core building exercises…what’s wrong with that?

I’m not being sarcastic. Your last thread was “why do deadlifts” and consisted of “why do people do deadlifts I don’t do them and I am hella swole” and now this thread is “why do ab work” and consists of “why do people do ab work I don’t do it and I am hella swole”.

It’s pointless. Can you build a good back and legs without deadlifts? Yes. Is it ideal? No. Can you build strong abdominals without isolation work? Yes. Is it ideal? No. Bringing up idiots on bosu balls doing nothing but crunches for hours isn’t relevant, because they aren’t serious, knowledgeable trainees.

Saying “most of the guys working their abs don’t even have a low enough body fat for them to show” is also assinine. It’s equivalent to saying “Why do people with fat legs do squats? Their quadriceps aren’t even showing through!” For the record, I do deadlift and don’t do ab work. The only reason I don’t work my abs is laziness, nothing more.

Worry about your own training and spend less time thinking about guys who don’t train how you do are idiots.[/quote]

Ok, it’s only a discussion thread (no need to raise your cortisone levels lol). For the record, I DO deadlift (as stated throughout my previous posts) �?? I said I never USED to do them. My previous post was designed to get feedback from people experienced at deadlifting.

As it turns out, it gave me reassurance and a renewed determination with the deadlifts (which are new to me), so therefore the post actually benefited me and was not just a rant of �??look at me�?? like you perceived it to be.

Thus far, the only thing that�??s made me intrigued to specifically target my Abs is the thought of being able to do 20+ hanging body raises (which is actually compound)…but not for bodybuilding, rather, purely for the heck of being able to do it! I do not believe that it will drastically change the appearance of my Abs though.

By the way, the analogy of yours is pretty bad. Saying that �??there�??s no point in training Abs with high BF�?? (as I said) is not like saying that �??there�??s no point in training thighs with high BF�??.

Why liken my statement to something completely different? Thighs can grow huge, Abs don�??t grow much at all. When you bulk up, your thighs grow like a weed, but your Abs don�??t. When you cut, your newly grown thighs will show through. But what size increase in the Abs do you have to show for the bulking when you cut?

�??Worry about your own training and spend less time thinking about guys who don’t train how you do are idiots�??

I do not think this, in fact, although I have a strong opinion, I�??m still wanting OTHER peoples advice too. I will argue a point I believe strongly to HELP people, but if they have a good point/advice, I�??ll willfully listen…isn�??t that what these threads are all about???

One point I�??m thinking about from this thread is the fact that some people have good genetics for things like Abs…

54

I think too many people focus on spinal flexion (crunches and the like) way too much while neglecting resisting rotation or creating rotation in some form.
Yes, crunches and the like do serve their purpose (just didn’t want people to think I’m 100% against crunches)

55

Well, I am pretty much 100% against crunches. The only thing abs are good for is to not get hurt when you are punched in the gut, and to support other lifts.

“Oh, but they get the gals sex’in me!”

Really? Because I thought low body fat did. Crunches are totally useless for anyone that isnt a powerlifter trying to fix an impalance (yes, not even useful for building a strength base for abs, unless you want CRUNCH POWER!!!.. who uses crunch power? When you are a body-builder what pose is there that you see a guy all hunched over and tensing his abs like a full flexion crunch?)

There are so many other better excercises if you are building your abs for structural support.

56

I do abs right there in the middle of the squat rack while supersetting with curls.
Helps my core and my bottom two abs.

57

Wait. Did you just invent squat-rack crunches?

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  1. If you get sufficient stimulation from squats and deadlifts then your abs are your weak point and need to be isolated.
    If you don’t then your abs aren’t getting suffcient stimulation and need to be isolated.

  2. Abs can and should be trained every day (see Zatiorsky), are you realistically going to train your abs every day with sets of heavy squats? No.

  3. Most powerlifters isolate their abs. This should tell you something.

  4. I really hate threads that start like this “I really want to start some civilised discussion on (insert topic here). I personally feel people that do (blank) are incestuous/gimps/take it up the ass. Furthermore, (personal trainer/bosu ball/bodyblade joke here).”

59

Crunches are good for pre-fatigue and activation work.
I really don’t see what crunches should be of such great use for powerlifters. Surely a beginner would benefit more from a crunch than somebody able to squat a car?

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Jehovasfitness - I’m really intrigued, what made you choose that screen name? Is/was that your religion?