[quote]Gkhan wrote:
And how many Muslims support the views of Al-Qaeda?[/quote]
I don’t know. How many?
Besides, until “Al-Qaeda” becomes part of the political landscape of some country and their mischiefs get financed by “Muslims”, the analogy will remain utterly irrelevant.
[quote]lixy wrote:
dk44 wrote:
…and Bambie’s mother shouldn’t die, and bony people shouldn’t post in the Rate My Physique just to show their abs, and cannabis should be decriminalized…
What are you? 10?
Look around and see how much confusion exists among “believers”.
That’s a good question - just needs a question mark!
Technically, the exact same thing could indeed have happened to the Quran. But the histories of the two Holy Books are very different. The Quran went through a thorough process when compiled, but what makes it stand out, is the fact that it was open and public.
Arabia at the time of the prophet was laden with professional reciters. Poetry was the only notable art form, and the thriving field led to the emergence of a parallel market for good memorizers who can recite verses in exchange for money. Remember that most people did not know how to read or write at the time (not that it changed much!). So, here you have this prophet showing up with what is unarguably the most eloquent and artistic book ever written in Arabic and the accompanying message. The new converts were eager to learn it by heart to mesmerize their friends (it is reported that the Qurayshis accused the prophet of witchcraft upon hearing Quranic verses). So after Mohammed’s death, and as Islam spread further, the fear that some crook would sneakily alter the text to advance his/her interests struck the community. The book is then compiled in the form we know it today, in an open process whereby people who memorized bits of it would come forward and recite it. Cross-referencing was used to make sure everything that went in is legit’ and given the large population sample, it’s safe to say that there are good chances for it being essentially intact.
Also, the Quran is quite young in “monotheistic books scale”.
You don’t have to believe that it’s unadulterated, but you can at least acknowledge that there are varying degree of “corruption probabilities”, and that the Quran is less likely (however one would define that) to have been changed from its original version.
IMO the God in the Bible clearly isn’t the same God thats in the Koran.
So…you believe in the existence of more than one god?[/quote]
WTF does Bambi’s mother have to do with an almighty God not allowing his WORD to become corrupt? I agree that there is lots of confusion among believers, but I think that comes from our side of the equation, but I reject the fact that the Bible is corrupt, I think God has everything that is supposed to be in the Bible in there no matter how it got there.
I don’t believe in more than one god. I reject the Muslim view of God, and feel that anyone saying that the christian and muslim God are the same, is seriously ill informed.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Seriously? The Taliban came after the CIA left Afghanistan.[/quote]
I know the CIA or some US government branch trained some terrorist group in that area. They obviously weren’t ‘terrorists’ at the time though.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Do muslims believe that non-muslims are going to hell because thay are not muslim?
No.[/quote]
Bullshit. That’s what every religion teaches on day one. How else are they going to get you to come back for day two?
I just take solace in the fact that our species is in its infancy, and this whole religion/mythology thing will eventually be a distant memory. Just imagine if all the time and energy spent bitching about who’s god is better was directed towards real problems…
I’ve got a question about Islam, and all the other religions as well: Who cares? Get over yourselves. You’ve been told stories in order to help socialize you and prepare you for life in a complicated world. There is no truth to them, aside from the lessons: be good to each other, practice restraint, there are dangers associated with promiscuity and drunkenness, etc.
It seems to me that the human’s greatest gift, abstract thought and imagination, is also his biggest obstacle to making real progress. It’s so easy for us to conjure up ridiculous ideas and accept them as truth. Obviously, we needed the ability to think abstractly to plan and simulate and communicate, but the side effect has been religion and dogmatic thinking. Evolution is a bitch.
[quote]dk44 wrote:
Assuming that you believe everything else in either the Koran/Bible. Why is it so hard to believe that God could snap his fingers and make Mary pregnant? If you believe he created the world, then how much easier would it be to create a baby? [/quote]
I don’t like anthropomorphizing God, so let’s stay off the “snap his fingers” image.
God is, by definition, omnipotent. So, yeah, of course he could have willed Mary pregnant. And that is not contested as far as I know. But that doesn’t make Jesus the son of God anymore than Adam was. The contention here transcends the semantics of procreation vs. creation. It steps into the realm of deifying a human being. Jesus was extraordinary, but it doesn’t mean that he gets a divine title because of one divine attribute (sinlessness). God is pretty intransigent on these matters. Ask any Jew, Muslim or Unitarian Christian.
The Quran was not supposed to be a novelty. It was the latest reiteration of the Abrahamic message. As such, it is only normal that parts of it overlap with the Bible.
And you are certainly free to have that sentiment. But I’ll speculate that your decision to feel like wool is being pulled over your eyes postdates whatever negative stereotype you picked up about Islam.
Given your age, I doubt you approached the Quran pre-9/11. Am I wrong?
[quote]Mark Mabry wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
We are in Iraq because Bush is an idiot who had a personal vendetta against Saddam Hussain, and he thought he could win the “hearts and minds” of the Iraqi people.
I’ll use the term criminal rather than idiot.
Also, need I remind you that 80% of Americans supported him “personal vendetta”?
And how many Muslims support the views of Al-Qaeda?
80% of Americans supported Bush! Where did you find this?[/quote]
Yep. That’s the extent of the propaganda “the liberal media” is subjecting America to!
Days after Bush’s state of the union address, came Powell’s “strong case” against Saddam that he presented at the UN weeks before the invasion. Every single poll taken at the time showed a crushing majority of the country perfectly OK with attacking Iraq. It was actually in the 70-something percent, but I rounded it up.
You can find data here:
[quote]lixy wrote:
It was actually in the 70-something percent, but I rounded it up.[/quote]
Ok then, according to my rounding, 100% of Muslims are terrorists.
Don’t round at all, give actual figures in these discussions.
Can we trust any of your numbers now?
EDIT: “Do you approve or disapprove of the way Bush is handling the situation in Iraq?”
That never even went above 70%. Wikipedia has 75%. That’s very generous rounding.
[quote]dk44 wrote:
WTF does Bambi’s mother have to do with an almighty God not allowing his WORD to become corrupt? [/quote]
The world isn’t perfect. God is.
By your logic, God would not be allowing his CREATION (of which WORD is a mere subset) to become sick, rotten, twisted, etc. Babies wouldn’t die horrible deaths from genetic defects and that Fritzl monster would not have been born.
And since we’re in the surreal department, I propose this to enlighten (darken?) the mood.
Reject all you want. I don’t really care. But don’t make mistakes of basic logic. As long as you don’t have a direct channel to God, there is no possible way for you to determine whether what was reported to you is pristine or not.
Again, feel free to reject. I also reject the notion of a “father” god that has a “son”. This debate has been going on for millenia, and it shouldn’t stop people from accepting each other’s faiths. I pray to God, pray for Jesus and all the shabang. I just don’t believe He has kids. So technically, you are right. But I am certainly not ill informed when I say that I pray to the exact same divine entity the Unitarian Christians pray to.
[quote]swordthrower wrote:
lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Do muslims believe that non-muslims are going to hell because thay are not muslim?
No.
Bullshit. [/quote]
I know that a non-Muslim doesn’t necessarily go to Hell. I also know that professing Islam as a faith does not guarantee you won’t roast. Only God can tell where a person is going to end up after they die.
So substantiate your claim or go away.
That’s not much of an argument, now is it?
[quote]I just take solace in the fact that our species is in its infancy, and this whole religion/mythology thing will eventually be a distant memory. Just imagine if all the time and energy spent bitching about who’s god is better was directed towards real problems…
I’ve got a question about Islam, and all the other religions as well: Who cares? Get over yourselves. You’ve been told stories in order to help socialize you and prepare you for life in a complicated world. There is no truth to them, aside from the lessons: be good to each other, practice restraint, there are dangers associated with promiscuity and drunkenness, etc.
It seems to me that the human’s greatest gift, abstract thought and imagination, is also his biggest obstacle to making real progress. It’s so easy for us to conjure up ridiculous ideas and accept them as truth. Obviously, we needed the ability to think abstractly to plan and simulate and communicate, but the side effect has been religion and dogmatic thinking. Evolution is a bitch.[/quote]
I always find the tolerance level of militant atheists interesting. I bet you’d skin us all and burn our books if given half a chance.
[quote]lixy wrote:
I always find the tolerance level of militant atheists interesting. I bet you’d skin us all and burn our books if given half a chance.[/quote]
Where did you find any violent themes in my post? I’m mostly just saddened by religion, I don’t hate it. In fact I said that it’s purpose is to teach us to be good to each other and how to take care of ourselves. That’s a good thing, and I realize there are good things about religion, but the nature of human thought allows it to go too far, into the realm of accepting ridiculous things as fact.
And what’s all this talk about skinning? That doesn’t even make sense.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
It was actually in the 70-something percent, but I rounded it up.
Ok then, according to my rounding, 100% of Muslims are terrorists.
Don’t round at all, give actual figures in these discussions.
Can we trust any of your numbers now?
EDIT: “Do you approve or disapprove of the way Bush is handling the situation in Iraq?”
That never even went above 70%. Wikipedia has 75%. That’s very generous rounding.[/quote]
No. Don’t trust any of my numbers. Be skeptical and always verify.
Now, if you think I misrepresented facts or was deliberately deceitful, feel free to disregard what I write.
I can’t tell you where I picked up the high end 70% figure, but it may have been in this documentary.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html
The point I was making was that Americans bought the propaganda hook, line and sinker. And looking at the polls more closely, you can see that 81% believed Hussein had ties to Al-Qaeda and 79% believed the WMD case. And there’s an ABC News commissioned poll performed by TNS Intersearch on page 17 of that PollingReport page I linked to where 78% of people answered “favor” to the question “Would you favor or oppose having U.S. forces take military action against Iraq to force Saddam Hussein from power?” with only 17% who answered opposed.
But if you think more Americans opposed attacking Iraq, suit yourself…
seems to me that people are forgetting that faith is divine, is personal, and that ALL religions are man made.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
I don’t doubt that it works for you. Not for a second. But I do think I have the right to question whether or not it is perfect. Your claim of perfection seems to be based on blind faith, which to me is a bit weak. If someone starts putting holes in my religion, I question the religion first.
Man was meant to think for himself.[/quote]
makavali i mentioned earlier that The Quran teaches us to say,
(We hear and we obey.) (2:285) The ultimate aim of our religion is to arrive at a deep realization that we are slaves and Allah
“god” Most High is our master.
and as for your claim of blind faith somethings are supposed to be taken blindly without discussion and i think religion is one of them
read the above
[quote]Seems like that would be a biased source…
Um… high consumption of any food can screw you up. And low fiber is bad for you whether or not you eat pork.[/quote]
ok search and get me an evidence that eating pork can’y be hazardous
i don’t know where u get ur info from , pigs eat and sleep in their own shit.
well it’s something hard for you to understand
what??! do u think we r that trivial to give rights according to our private parts. women are sentimental in their judgements and they tend to be weak when taking major descisions that’s it.
atlast u agree on something. that they were objectified.
no homos was mentioned in the quran alot look up those verses:
6:86, 7:80-84, 11:77-83, 15:57-77, 21:74-75, 26:160-175, 27:54-58, 29:26, 28-35, 37:133-138, 51:31-37 and 54:33-39.
i don’t know where it originated but no body is born that way.
it’s neither it’s LUST and it should be abandoned for the sake of god
well let’ say ur trying to quit smoking , will putting a cigarette pack infront of u help u???
read up the verses
u have to show some respect man.
because since man’s first creation he was a sinner.
[quote]pat wrote:
Which actually does not work. Jesus claimed to be the son of God, his entire ministry was based on that. You cannot claim that some of his teachings were ok, but that part is wrong. He either is the son of God or a charlatan, there is no in between. If he is not what he says he is, then everything he said and did is not worth the paper it is written on. The whole “prophet” compromise is a cop out, because if is not what he says he is, then nothing else about him or his life matters. His words and actions should be taken as intended or disregarded all together. [/quote]
sorry to bust ur bubble but jesus never claimed to be the son of god.
and in the quran god says bism illah alrahman alrahim “Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)”
[quote]dk44 wrote:
So just for clarification, Muslims think that Jesus was a prophet no more, no less; And Muslims think that the Bible is corrupted by men so therefore the Koran was sent to be the guiding rule; So do muslims believe that part of the corruption of the Bible was Jesus being the Son of God? [/quote]
read this http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=886&CATE=1
yes jesus is not the son of god. the quran says In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful " Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)"
[quote]dk44 wrote:
Agreed, I was just making sure that I had the muslim view right.[/quote]
and u got it from pat??? is pat a muslim??
[quote]2) If the Bible became corrupt, why should I believe that the Koran isn’t, cuz if it happened to the Bible then why couldn’t the same happen in the Koran.
IMO the God in the Bible clearly isn’t the same God thats in the Koran.[/quote]
well there is only one god
as for ur other question about if the quran was corrupt read this:
How was the Qur’an preserved from the mouth of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to the present day?
The Qur’an is transmitted to us by way of “tawatur”. This means that the Qur’an was transmitted to us both in its written and memorized form by such a large number of people in each generation starting with the first that any doubt about its not being the original text cannot be conceived rationally.
The recording and revelation of the Qur’an
The compilation of the Qur’an has a detailed and well documented history. The Qur’an, as is well known, was not revealed at all once to the Messenger of God (pbuh), but in stages and in accordance with incidences faced by the Muslim community. The important aspect of the wisdom behind its revelation in this way is considered to be the ease in its memorization by the Companions of the Prophet (pbuh). God Almighty says:
(It is) a Qur’an which We have divided (into parts from time to time), in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals: We have revealed it by stages. (Qur’an 17:106)
and
Those who reject Faith say: "Why is not the Qur’an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed), that We may strengthen thy heart thereby, and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually. (Qur’an 25:32)
Another reason for the gradual revelation of the Qur’an is the implementation of a large body of public and personal laws in stages. The incidents, cases, and questions that preceded the revelation of the verses help, those who came later, in understanding the meaning and import of the verses. These are called the occasions for the revelations. These reasons have facilitated to a great extent the application of the law and the commandments.
The Messenger of God (pbuh) used to memorize a verse or verses from the Qur’an after their revelation. He then recited these for his companions who used to memorize them. There were simultaneously scribes with the Prophet (pbuh) who used to record the verses after their revelation and recitation. These written records were then preserved in the Prophet’s house, while some of the scribes would record the verses for themselves and preserve them for their own use.
The arch-angel Gabriel used to inform the Prophet of the place and location of each verse within its chapter (Surah). During each Ramadan (month), arch-angel Gabriel would recite in its entire length and arrangement, with the Prophet (pbuh), what had been revealed of the Qur’an, and in the last year of the Prophet’s (pbuh) life, arch-angel Gabriel recited the whole of it in its current arrangement and the Prophet (pbuh) recited it twice after him. The Prophet (pbuh), thus, memorized it and recited it for his companions, who memorized it in this arrangement.
By the time of the first Caliph (Abu Bakr), the Qur’an had long been in its complete form both memorized and recorded in sheets. For example, Zayd ibn Thabit, one of the deputized scribes, did not rely upon the memory of the Companions and the Prophet (pbuh) alone when making copies of the Qur’an, NOR on his own inscribed copy of it, but rather, every single verse in the Qur’an required the testimony of at least two (geographically) unrelated men before it could be written down. Inevitably, due to the sheer number of men who had memorized the Qur’an in the first generation of Islam, each verse was transmitted and verified by hundreds [tawatur] in its current place before being recorded in its proper sequence.
and this is a proof that the quran is the word of god not a man http://www.examinethetruth.com/ahmed_opening.htm#Evidence1
[quote]pat wrote:
I have eaten raw bacon and not a damn thing ever happened to me. Pork is A-OK, I have a couple of great pork recipes. You should try it, they are yum. Besides it’s great for building lean mass.
You have the same problem many have, in many religions, putting rules before the heart of the law. So what if homosexuality is a sin, is it up to humans to judge them or should we treat them like brothers and neighbors? I think it’s nasty, what they do, but I will treat them with the same respect as anybody else, I would just leave if they want to get down.
If islam was perfect, then no evil would arise from those who practice it. Alas, no religion, system or govenment has propagated more violence and strife on the world, than islam in it’s current state. That shit has to stop, now.
Good ol’ muslims are good ol’ human.
Lastly, do not be afraid to question what you believe. If you religion cannot stand up to scrutiny then it’s not worth wasting your time with.[/quote]
well i can be uncomfortable if i knew the guy sitting next to me is humping another guy.
read my post in the first page about islam vs west .
as i said before somethings must be taken as they are god is not one of my friends to question he is not a fellow human but rather he is devine and merciful and should be respected above all.
[quote]dk44 wrote:
Assuming that you believe everything else in either the Koran/Bible. Why is it so hard to believe that God could snap his fingers and make Mary pregnant? If you believe he created the world, then how much easier would it be to create a baby?[/quote]
it’s not hard we actually belive that god’s creation to jesus is a miracle but we don’t belive that jesus is the son of god.
read my post about y the koran isn’t corrupted
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Do muslims believe that non-muslims are going to hell because thay are not muslim?
No.[/quote]
i don’t know lixy where u got that from but any one who doesn’t solely believe in god is going to hell. but that doesn’t mean that being a moslem earns u a place in heaven . one must obey god , pray fast read the holy book and in the end even if one was with alot of good deeds it’s not his deeds that solely gets him in heave it’s god’s graces.