Meant to type: “This is a great site.”
Zeb-your training advice is great-the rest of my post I just did to get a rise out of these people. you have helped me a lot on these forums in regards to my workouts.
to whomever-yes, I am against a man’s rights in this case because historically men have only argued for rights over the fetus when it serves their purposes and desires. Historically it has been women that have been left to foot the bill during “unwanted” pregnancies. You really have no where to run when the fetus is growing inside you. we men are not left with such limited options.
so yes-I am once again against a man’s “rights” in this case, if that is what you want to call it.
Obviously, if this were an issue with men’s bodies, there wouldn’t be any discussion. All of you macho men would kill rather than be told what to do with your bodies. Also, where there is good gun control-i.e., Canada, Japan-murders are virtually non-existent. We are the most immoral and hypocritical country in the world. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. It means that a woman should have the final say over how she takes care of her body. This is an issue of privacy and safety. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, then we go back to the days of the coat hangers and back alley butcher shops. You cannot be for less government control for things that suit you and be for more government control over things that do suit you. Get with the rest of the world and get off your hypocritical, self-serving horses. Let women have the final say over their bodies, let birth control programs exist to help with unwanted pregnacies, and concentrate on being more tolerant and compassionate. The New Testament speaks very succinctly to tolerance and compassion. Have any of you heard of the Sermon on the Mount? Look in the mirror and change that person before trying to change anyone else.
I would first ask you this: Where is the tolerance and compassion for the fetus? I suggest to you that there is none when an abortion takes place.
I also think Roe V Wade will be overturned. It is simply a matter of appointing Two more judges who lean conservative.
I am sure there will always be good reasons for abortion: Life of the Mother, Incest, Rape. Beyond that abortion is a black eye on this countries history. No different that slavery.
Your take on gun control is wrong as well, howver that is for another post!
[quote]MikeShank wrote:
Zeb-your training advice is great-the rest of my post I just did to get a rise out of these people. you have helped me a lot on these forums in regards to my workouts. [/quote]
Thank you Mike!
I really don’t think a fetus is a life anyway, at least up until the first 6 months, I cannot see much of an argument for it being a life. Look at the development of a fetus and for a long period of its gestation you cannot tell a human fetus from that of a whale or a cat. it is just a clump of cells. calling that a baby or a child and refering to it as killing the infant is rather extreme in my opinion.
I agree with the previous poster that this is really an isssue of a woman having the final say in terminating a pregnancy.
To compare abortion to slavery as a black eye in the countries history is something else I disagree with.
Nobody who is pro-choice is having a “lets bash the fetus like a pinata” celebration, every time a woman makes her choice. As a pro-choice advocate I find it probably just as much an unfortunate thing that an abortion takes place but I can also rationalize that it is not my body, therefore it is not my choice to be made.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
ANY law that limits what you can do to your own body (as long as it does not directly harm others) is a BAD law and should be willfully broken. I mean, isn’t it kind of silly that suicide is the only crime, that if committed successfully, you can’t be arrested for it?
ToShinDo:
Let’s take it a step further. Is any law that “indirectly” harms others a bad law as well? Would you also recommend breaking these laws?
[/quote]
I’m not quite sure what you mean here ZEB. My point is that your body is your own, it’s one of the few things that is yours and will always be yours. I don’t believe that the government should be allowed to tell you what to do with your own body (whether or not what you want to do is stupid). Unless what you do directly harms another person. Indirectly is too nebulous, I believe, to legislate. Eating so much you weigh 800lbs is stupid and disgusting, and indirectly harms others through your burden on the health care system, having others care for you, etc. But should it be illegal? No. Same thing with getting tattoos, plastic surgery, etc. Until it directly harms another, it should be your choice. Robbery, murder, fraud, speeding, assault, theft all directly harm someone. Suicide harms only yourself (directly). I know, off the thread, sorry.
I can also rationalize that there will be nobody there to take care of all of these unwanted children so they will grow up one day and as Chris Rock Says “Out trying to steal my wallet”. How about children being born with aids, who is gonna take care of them, what is their chance for survivability.
I think this whole thing comes back to trying to outpopulate the other guy. why were the jews and christians against gays, because they were not a very effective way to outpopulate their enemies, that’s why. A previous poster even states that eventually there will be more conservatives than liberals one day because of this. I hope he was kidding. This is 2004 a.d. you are following a set of rules that were meant to be followed more than 2000 years ago. get up to date!
I know and am close friends with a gay couple who have been my personal training clients for the last 4 years. they give more money and time to non aids and gay charaties (dyphus, make a wish, habitat for humanity etc.) than anyone else that I know. they are incredibly decent human beings. to say they are living against “gods word” is kinda out of whack in my opinion. I consider them much better christians then most of the pussy pounders that I meet (myself included)
On what BostonBarrister wrote:
Great post. Why? Because it’s inconclusive – just like people’s opinions about this complicated matter ought to be.
[quote]kevtrice wrote:
BostonBarrister: About the same as the difference between a 8 month old fetus and a 8 1/2 month old fetus, but maybe a little more because the baby can have much more life shaping experiences outside the mother’s body (which I don’t know if I think that matters on whether it can be killed yet) and it interacts with the mother and father much more outside the womb.[/quote]
I belive Peter Singer advocates infanticide up to 1 month after a baby’s birth (in cases, I believe, where the baby has been born with some sort of terrible disease,etc.)…
[quote]MikeShank wrote:
To compare abortion to slavery as a black eye in the countries history is something else I disagree with.
Nobody who is pro-choice is having a “lets bash the fetus like a pinata” celebration, every time a woman makes her choice. As a pro-choice advocate I find it probably just as much an unfortunate thing that an abortion takes place but I can also rationalize that it is not my body, therefore it is not my choice to be made.[/quote]
Tell me why you think it is “an unfortunate thing” considering that in your words it’s simply a “clump of cells.”
Hey! RightSideUp is back! Welcome back man!
Kind of hard to take RSU seriously after being gone exactly one month after the election.
Funny how that is exactly the time period he agreed to change his name after he lost THE CHALLENGE.
I think it speaks volumes.
JeffR
QUOTE:
And, I know this is shitty nitpicking, but I can’t help myself. Derek, with all the head ripping and such. If the head has yet to develop, is it okay to have an abortion then? [end QUOTE]
I see I’ve struck a chord by telling people that I wanted to rip off some heads here! Good! Does anyone see the irony in my threats? The irony is that people on this forum get upset when (in jest, of course) I threaten able-bodied adults that can defend themselves but don’t care enough to come to the aide of a helpless fetus (human life) when he/she is about to get his/her head ripped off. Pathetic, that all that cool irony was lost on some of you (true Concervatives not included). As for aborting a headless fetus… are you STILL searching for an excuse to kill something? Anything? As long as it cannot fight back? Or as long as you don’t have to watch it happen? Or only if you don’t have to face any consequences? The truth is, I don’t concentrate on making a list of excuses to perform abotions. I just concentrate on making people realize that innocent human life should be cherrished, not extinguished on a whim. (emergency situations aside)
QUOTE;
I know and am close friends with a gay couple who have been my personal training clients for the last 4 years. they give more money and time to non aids and gay charaties (dyphus, make a wish, habitat for humanity etc.) than anyone else that I know. they are incredibly decent human beings. to say they are living against “gods word” is kinda out of whack in my opinion. I consider them much better christians then most of the pussy pounders that I meet (myself included) [end QUOTE]
I am in exactly the same boat. My two closest clients (and buddies) are a gay couple and the four of us (my fiance and I) agree on the abortion issue. Imagine how they see it. Thousands of babies being slaughtered every year and as much as they’d LOVE to start a family, they cannot or at best it is a prohibitively difficult and expensive not to mention heartbreaking thing to try to do. What a shame. Try telling those who, for various reasons, cannot have a baby, that you’ve made an appointment to kill yours before birth. You may want to prepare to run for your lives after telling them!
Oh my GOD! I am vehemently against abortion AND I have gay friends! I must be open-minded. Imagine that!
derek-compliments are like nicknames-you can’t give one to yourself!
[quote]PoKeJeRk wrote:
dictionary.com defines a cluster as:
A group of the same or similar elements gathered or occurring closely together; a bunch
so arent we all just a “cluster of cells?”[/quote]
Oh, good one. When someone starts using dictionary definitions against you , you know their argument is on shaky ground.
Apparently, centuries ago, commonly held medical opinion was that ova were actually tiny, tiny, tiny little humans that were basically dormant until bathed in sperm, whereupon they would grow into larger versions of the perfectly formed human being they already were.
It strikes me that perhaps some ‘pro-lifers’ still hold to this? How else could anyone possess such a vehement view that it’s a human being as soon as a sperm nudges an egg, with rights equal to, if not greater than the person within whom they reside?
In the first months after conception an embryo is the potential for human life - not a human per se.
Yeah PoKeJeRk I guess I’m a cluster of cells as well. But a really BIG cluster which is also self-sufficient and sentient and capable of thought.
I really object to those people who say that these lazy pregnant chicks should just suck it up and ‘face up to their mistakes’. There are few ‘mistakes’ that can so completely alter the rest of a persons life; until you’ve been confronted with one it’s arrogant to judge.
My baby came at the wrong time, the wrong place (in life) and perhaps to the wrong person (or so I thought). I love my baby so much it scares me. I am getting married to his mom in May and I don’t see what or who could make me any happier. How goddamn selfish does a person need to be to have an abortion because it’s not the right time? If I am going to make a judgement or a mistake in judgment when diciding when a cluster of cells becomes a human, I’d rather err on the side or morality and goodness by calling it human at conception rather than some arbitrary time period that I chose to make myself feel better “Oh it wasn’t a baby when I got it sucked out of me so it’s ok. It wasn’t going to be a baby for another couple of weeks anyway”. Disgusting!