A Case For The Pull-up

Training Powerlifting
41

I have been training my chin-ups now for one and a half years or so after a hiatus of doing them for a few years regularly with a break.

So far my best one rep max has been 145. But this was only accomplished by a very brutal and rigorous routine over many months. Then I hit a point where every pounds became a battle. I sort of got burnt out.

So now I am back trying to either nail a bodyweight times two or a one armed chin-up. I am also letting the one armed dumbbell row be my assistance movments.
The only thing that I wonder about this article is why the fear of training to failure? I use it sometimes, usually the last set when I am trying to set some kind of record and it works for me.

42

Ah the pull-up, one of natures magical creations…

Dude, you guys ever try Eagle Loop Pull-ups? I can’t believe some of the guys that can do pinky pull-ups. CRAZY!

43

Pullups are overrated for those not strong enough to do at least 5 smooth pullups. Everyone talks about how much better they are than pulldowns but the fact of the matter is they are too hard at the top ROM initially to get enough volume with good form in the top 1/3 of the movement.

Poliquin talks about how the upper fibers of the lats are more slow twitch than the lower fibers. Knowing this I think doing sets of 10-12 lat pulldowns sitting straight up and working on the bottom of the movement are a very valuable tool to increase pronated pullups.

44

I’ve been training at home for some time now and I have found alternatives to most movements, but not the pull up and I am really missing it.

How can i setup something to do heavy chins off at home? Any ideas would be great.

45

[quote]ZedLeppelin wrote:
I’ve been training at home for some time now and I have found alternatives to most movements, but not the pull up and I am really missing it.

How can i setup something to do heavy chins off at home? Any ideas would be great.[/quote]

A tree?

46

[quote]ZedLeppelin wrote:
I’ve been training at home for some time now and I have found alternatives to most movements, but not the pull up and I am really missing it.

How can i setup something to do heavy chins off at home? Any ideas would be great.[/quote]

Good question. Aside from genuine, free-standing pull-up bars, I’ve found it almost impossible to find a place to do them.

I bought one of those bars that you can put in doorways, then discovered that all doorways in the house are too low.

Porch wasn’t stable enough–I can just picture the whole thing crashing down if I tried to hang my body off of it. Ditto for the tree limbs in the back yard.

I even walked through the city parking structure a block away looking for a horizontal pipe or beam that was suitable. Nothing.

The only thing I’ve found in my neighborhood is the soccer goal post in the school yard a couple of blocks away.
It says KEEP OFF in large letters across the top, but I pretend I don’t see that. Only catch is that it’s inaccessible during school hours.

So, I’m stuck with doing them only at the gym, which eliminates using the grease-the-groove method.

47

Great posts by everybody, but another question:

What’s the difference between Pull ups or Chin ups? I do both, but should I stick to one or be able to do 15 reps on both. Chin ups are easier to me.

Chin ups- Underhand and close grip
Pull ups- wide grip overhand.

48

I blew out my SacroIliac joint about a month ago, and still recovering. I’m at the point where I can do some light dumbell work again, but after discovering this thread, I found that I can actually workout without loading my lower torso (ie compression).

With my chiro’s approval, I’ve been doing a pull-up/chin-up/dip/hanging leg raise routine.

Wow-- great gains.

My question is this: I can only do a few reps of each (pulls and chins), like 5RM pullups. Is it best to use a pullup/chinup machine with counter balance to build strenth, or just keep forging with trying to pull body weight until that next rep comes?

Thanks!
SD

49

you should be able to get up to 10-12 with just bodyweight in not too long. if its really hard, then you could slightly assist yourself with your feet on a lower bar. patience is good though. and make sure you aren’t overtraining - max 3 times/week to failure for starting, and then maybe twice a week when you’ve done it a while.

50

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I blew out my SacroIliac joint about a month ago, and still recovering. I’m at the point where I can do some light dumbell work again, but after discovering this thread, I found that I can actually workout without loading my lower torso (ie compression).

With my chiro’s approval, I’ve been doing a pull-up/chin-up/dip/hanging leg raise routine.

Wow-- great gains.

My question is this: I can only do a few reps of each (pulls and chins), like 5RM pullups. Is it best to use a pullup/chinup machine with counter balance to build strenth, or just keep forging with trying to pull body weight until that next rep comes?

Thanks!
SD
[/quote]

I posted earlier about this. The pulldown assist machine is not an acceptable option. It is much different than someone holding your legs or using a band. What you should do is this. Do three sets of pullups getting whatever you can with good form. Then do lat pulldowns for three or four sets with pristine form.

If you are doing pronated pullups you should use higher reps for the pulldown, for supinated use lower reps. You will not progress on your pronated pullups by just practicing pullups, unless A) you are small and your strength to weight ratio along with short arms simply makes pullups easier because you do less work, or B)you are thin and pretty light. Otherwise you should definitely use a pronated lat pulldown to give yourself enough volume to get create an overload.

Because this is the problem with pullups. It is an absolute weight. It is like getting under 225 and using only that weight just trying to increase your reps. Using an assist machine changes everything. Most people I know that use the assist never do well with pullups off of it.

51

I think you should be able to get better at pull ups by just doing pull ups. I know I have…

The way I did it was to just take 50-60% of my max reps and do 5 sets one week, 6 the next and then 7 the week after. You can re-test the week after and re-run it, or drop a set and add a rep.

So the progression would now look like;

week1: (1/2 50-60% + 1) x3 or 4
week2: x4 or 5
week3: x5 or 6

I think training to failure all the time’s a dreadful idea. You don’t do it when squatting or benching, so why do it on pull ups?

52

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
SteelyD wrote:

I posted earlier about this. The pulldown assist machine is not an acceptable option. It is much different than someone holding your legs or using a band. What you should do is this. Do three sets of pullups getting whatever you can with good form. Then do lat pulldowns for three or four sets with pristine form.

If you are doing pronated pullups you should use higher reps for the pulldown, for supinated use lower reps. You will not progress on your pronated pullups by just practicing pullups, unless A) you are small and your strength to weight ratio along with short arms simply makes pullups easier because you do less work, or B)you are thin and pretty light. Otherwise you should definitely use a pronated lat pulldown to give yourself enough volume to get create an overload.

Because this is the problem with pullups. It is an absolute weight. It is like getting under 225 and using only that weight just trying to increase your reps. Using an assist machine changes everything. Most people I know that use the assist never do well with pullups off of it.

[/quote]

Not saying that your suggestion won’t work, but I’m not really sure if your logic is congruent.

You suggest that Steely do BW pull-ups and then perform sets on the lat pulldown with sub BW loads. Then you compare this to only using 225 for squats to improve your reps, and how that wouldn’t make any sense.

But, let me ask you, would you tell someone who wanted to get their reps up in the squat (using 225) to do squats with less weight than that (providing that it wasn’t their 1RM)?

Muscles get bigger when exposed to overload (as I’m sure you already know), the more overload, the greater the stimulus for hypertrophy. Overload is simply a matter of total load moved in a given period of time.

Therefore, the best ways to increase maximal strength (which will in turn improve strength endurance) is to use methods that allow for the greatest loads to be used. Techniques such as negatives, partials, poloquin’s 1-6 principle (post activation potentiation), forced reps, etc… allow one to use supramaximal loads, thus increasing maximal strength at the fastest possible rate, because the overload is the greatest.

Also, higher volume doesn’t necessarily mean higher overload (unless that higher volume is performed within the same time period), it can produce an overload, but it doesn’t necessarily have to.

What is my point is all of this? It’s that I would actually suggest that Steely not do lat pulldowns if he wants to bring up his BW pull-up numbers. I would suggest that he spends some time working with loads in excess of his bodyweight (which is very difficult with a lat pulldown machine and not really worth the trouble). If he can get up to a BW + 50 lbs pull-up, then his bodyweight should feel relatively light.

Good training,

Sentoguy

53

The Pullup, hands down my favorite exercise, if anything can complete the V Shape Physique that I strive for as both a rock climber and a wrestler(w/ a Greco style.)
I actually did some myself today, my routine consisted of this: probably over 20 sets of 6 with 20 added weight
Tell me if you think I should have had more volume in this workout or in other exercises like the Inverted Row and maybe one more calisthetic to complete a rock climb day workout. I neeeeed to be able to do a one arm and would give an arm to achieve it, i’m beginning to think that may be the key; disable one arm to enable the other.

54

Grip strength is the most neglected aspect of Pull-ups. Work with a thick bar or a pair of towels for a while and your numbers will skyrocket.

Frequency is key. A low bodyfat index is more than necessary if you aim at reaching the 20 rep mark. It should be obvious.

When my number of pull ups was my main obsession, I was alternating high rep workouts using ladders and heavy work with a 20kg backpack. I quickly saw the results.

55

A U.S. Marine Recruit recently broke the MCRD San Diego pull-up record of 76 by doing 91 during his final physical fitness test. I don’t know his BW or if he did chins or pull-ups, but that is an impressive number.

Semper Fi,
azd

56

This program is for push ups but works well for pullups as well.

Pushup Routine

To do the routine first you have to find out the maximum number of reps you can do in pushups. After finding out your max, you will do a percentage of this number for your workout.
Week1
Mon test your max, 30% every 60 minutes
Tue 50% every 60 minutes
Wed 60% every 45 minutes
Thurs 25% every 60 minutes
Friday 45% every 30 minutes
Saturday 40% every 60 minutes
Sunday 20% every 90 minutes

Week2
Mon test your max again, 35% every 45 minutes
Tue 55% every 20 minutes
Wed 30% 15 minutes
Thurs 65% every 60 minutes
Friday 35% every 45 minutes
Saturday 45% every 60 minutes
Sunday 25% every 120 minutes

Week3
Test max

The routine is over, you can do it for two weeks, then do something else for another two weeks, then you can do the pushup program again.

57

[quote]Hanley wrote:
I think you should be able to get better at pull ups by just doing pull ups. I know I have…

The way I did it was to just take 50-60% of my max reps and do 5 sets one week, 6 the next and then 7 the week after. You can re-test the week after and re-run it, or drop a set and add a rep.

So the progression would now look like;

week1: (1/2 50-60% + 1) x3 or 4
week2: x4 or 5
week3: x5 or 6[/quote]

I think training to failure all the time’s a dreadful idea. You don’t do it when squatting or benching, so why do it on pull ups?

58

[quote]Hanley wrote:
I think you should be able to get better at pull ups by just doing pull ups. I know I have…

The way I did it was to just take 50-60% of my max reps and do 5 sets one week, 6 the next and then 7 the week after. You can re-test the week after and re-run it, or drop a set and add a rep.

So the progression would now look like;

week1: (1/2 50-60% + 1) x3 or 4
week2: x4 or 5
week3: x5 or 6

I think training to failure all the time’s a dreadful idea. You don’t do it when squatting or benching, so why do it on pull ups?[/quote]

This is what I am talking about. I totally agree that pullups are a better exercise than pulldowns and the best upper back exercise there is.

What I am saying is this. Pullups are not so much better than lat pulldowns that you can totally disregard the overload principle.

Imagine this. You havent lifted for awhile. You jump on the bench under 225 and get three reps. By your rationale with the pullup you should just keep using 225 and your reps will just keep going up. I believe you would be better getting in more reps with less weight maybe multiple sets of the 5-6 range to get enough volume in. Difference in volume if you were using 195 for 5 sets of 5 on bench vs. Using 225 for sets of 3,2,2,1,1. Is 4875lbs for the 195 bench vs. 2025lbs for the 225 bench.

With pullups if you can barely get 3 you dont just keep doing them alone because you arent strong enough to get enough volume in on the muscle fiber.
Using a band does not change the difficulty of the hardest part of the movement but makes the easiest part easier. Someone holding your legs works but is hard to quantify the leg push and change in mechanics involved.

It is stupid to not do a lat pulldown to get you to the point where you can get some good volume in on pullups for the simple fact that it is a machine and not the sexy minimalist pullup. And remember the lat pulldown is not a set motion hammerstrength machine but more a free weight.

And Im not saying you cant get stronger doing the pullups alone but it can be done faster for many people using the pulldown machine to help build quality lat volume.

59

Therefore, the best ways to increase maximal strength (which will in turn improve strength endurance) is to use methods that allow for the greatest loads to be used. Techniques such as negatives, partials, poloquin’s 1-6 principle (post activation potentiation), forced reps, etc… allow one to use supramaximal loads, thus increasing maximal strength at the fastest possible rate, because the overload is the greatest.

Also, higher volume doesn’t necessarily mean higher overload (unless that higher volume is performed within the same time period), it can produce an overload, but it doesn’t necessarily have to.

I know what you are saying but the fact of the matter is you have a main muscle group (lats) that responds much differently than doing compound lower body work. Lats need some volume to respond, very high weight does not work the same with pulling movements IMO.

This is what I am talking about as the problem. If you arent strong enough to do a decent amount of pullups adding in some lat pulldowns will easily give you more volume and sure it is not as good as being able to do just pullups but Im not going to believe it wont help.

60

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:

Therefore, the best ways to increase maximal strength (which will in turn improve strength endurance) is to use methods that allow for the greatest loads to be used. Techniques such as negatives, partials, poloquin’s 1-6 principle (post activation potentiation), forced reps, etc… allow one to use supramaximal loads, thus increasing maximal strength at the fastest possible rate, because the overload is the greatest.

Also, higher volume doesn’t necessarily mean higher overload (unless that higher volume is performed within the same time period), it can produce an overload, but it doesn’t necessarily have to.

I know what you are saying but the fact of the matter is you have a main muscle group (lats) that responds much differently than doing compound lower body work. Lats need some volume to respond, very high weight does not work the same with pulling movements IMO.

This is what I am talking about as the problem. If you arent strong enough to do a decent amount of pullups adding in some lat pulldowns will easily give you more volume and sure it is not as good as being able to do just pullups but Im not going to believe it wont help.[/quote]

And once again, I’m not saying that your suggestion won’t work, it’s just that in my experience improving maximal strength in a muscle is a great way to improve that muscle’s strength endurance capabilities.

If you can already do 5 pull-ups with BW (therefore BW is approx. 85% of max), then if you can build up to doing BW + 30-40 lbs, BW should be an even lesser percentage of your max, thus allowing you do perform more reps with it.

From past experience Poloquin’s 1-6 principle can usually add somewhere around 30lbs to your 1RM and 6RM in a month’s time. It’s worked for me anyways, and everyone who I’ve used it with.

I also understand what you’re saying about volume, and I agree that you do need to have a minimum of volume to really make the overload noticeable. Perhaps something like a 10X3, adding weight each week, would be another good way of going about things (since he should be able to get sets of 3 reps).

Honestly I think that both of our ideas combined would probably be the best route (although I would warn against using the 1-6 principle in conjunction with this).

Perhaps one heavy day where he could do 10x3, or supramaximal partials/negatives, forced reps or whatever method he chose. Then one day where he could do submaximal weights for more reps using the lat pulldown. Something of an ME and RE day ala Westside.

Good training,

Sentoguy