A 5x5 Plan

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

Hi folks,
I’m planning to start a 5x5 soon. I’ve looked through old posts and various articles and tried to combine some ideas. Since this is my first 4 day 5x5 attempt I thought I ask for a little critique…

Day 1
Diamonds in the Rough
Back Squats 5x5
Hack or Front Squats 5x5
If I have time 5 position Ski sit and/or Single leg squat (foot on bench) 5x5

Day 2
Incline Bench 5x5
Flat Bench (wide or medium) 5x5
Close Grip Bench 5x5
Flyes 3x8
Dips 3x8

Day 3
Diamonds in the Rough
Conventional Deadlifts 5x5
Stiff Legged Deadlifts 5x5
If I have time Good morning 5x5 or Single leg back extensions 3x8

Day 4
Chins (medium grip) 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Shoulder Press 5x5
Dumbbell row (straight arm as per Big Back Stack) 2x15
Shoulder Shrugs 3x8

Trying to keep everything around 60 mins. I’ll pretty much have a full warm up before every compound exercise.

Thanks as always

2

mother bitch, I had a great response to this, and it got eaten.

1 - do front squats, not hacks
2 - use a wide grip on flat bench
3 - don’t train calves pre-squat or pre-dl, as this will affect your squat and dl poundages
4 - When I dl, my entire back is sore the next day. You have back day being the next day. When I train dl, I always just do my back workout.
5 - if #4 comes true, you can dedicate a day to shoulders on day 4.
6 - when do you do abs?

3

Looks like a pretty descent plan. Give it a try and you can always adjust after.

4

I have to add something to my last post:
I agree with JWright. You might want to switch day 4 with day 2. I’m also guessing that you are going to have a day off between day 3 and day 4.

5

ND, I know you researched your workout, so I’m assuming you read RRD and Joel’s forum threads afterwards. I am just wondering why, after having read all that, you have chosen to include so many lifts in this 5x5 workout.

My first instinct was to say too many lifts, but I have seen you make good choices before, so my second thought was to just ask you why.

Are you planning to do this 4-day split on 4 consecutive days, such as M/T/W/Th/rest/repeat? Or maybe more like M/T/Th/F, resting Wed and the weekend?

Just curious about the reasons for your choices and also curious about your desired outcome, your current goals.

Lisa

6

Unfortunately, due to scheduling, I’m forced to train 4 consecutive days (Tues-Fri). I’ve done this for the better part of the last 3 months and have found my recovery is reasonable provided I stretch properly. I’ve also made some decent gains so I’m not completely screwing myself.

JWright: Is there a reason you said not to do Hack squats? (I only do the real Hack squats with the bar, not on a machine).

I haven’t trained abs in a little while (~4 weeks), but I find on my squat and DL days they feel pretty tight. However, I’ve always worked my abs hours after my workout anyways, for no other reason than I’m stricter with form that way.

JasonL: I considered switching day 2 with 4, but if anything my chest is lacking mass, compared to my back. And I have a hard time packing any on my chest, so I’m concerned that moving chest day to day 4 (esp. consecutive) will hinder my progress in chest development. Is that reasonable?

Lisa: You brought up my main concern…too many lifts. I’m not sure whether or not I can do most of this within 60 mins. NateDogg posted a response to a 5x5 thread that suggested 5x5 on the main compound movements and 2-4 sets of 8-10 on smaller movements. And this is what I gathered from most of the articles/threads I’ve read as well.

For the most part what I laid out has 20-21 work sets (which is around what I normally do). When doing a 5x5 routine, should that be reduced to something like 15 work sets?

Thanks for the great responses thus far. I hope my answers (and questions) made sense.

7

Lisa: I forgot to meantion, my current goals are to pack on mass and reach 200lbs. I’m looking mainly for hypertrophy for the time being.

8

Hey ND,

You are young and have good recovery, but I am still of the opinion that the idea behind 5x5 is to lift heavier with fewer total exercises, especially when you will be lifting 4 days in a row. I want to quote Joel Marion, from his 5/31/03 New Ripped, Rugged, and Dense Routine post:

Since the writing of my RRD article, my views on training have really evolved. A few of changes that I would make to the program outlined there are:

  1. I’d cut a lot of the minor work out. (i.e. Direct forearm and trap work)

  2. I’d never have anyone doing 5x5 with 4 exercises in one workout; I’d go with 2-3 and more frequent workouts.

From working with a number of individuals, experimenting with myself, and speaking with Chad Waterbury, I’ve become a strong believer in short frequent workouts. When you leave the gym, you should feel fresh and motivated, not tired and rundown. This has become an essential part of my training philosophy.
Here is the 5x5 split (you can apply this to other rep ranges besides 5x5 as well):

Day 1 (Chest and Biceps)
A1) 30-degree incline DB Bench Press
A2) Incline Bicep Curls

Day 2 (Quad Dom Legs and Calves)
A1) Narrow Stance Squat
A2) Calve Press in a Leg Press Machine

Day 3 (Back and Triceps)
A1) Pullups
A2) Dips

Day 4 (Hip Dom Legs and Shoulders)
A1) Deadlift
A2) Standing DB Military Press

Day 5 Off

Repeat the 5 day cycle back to back for the duration of your program. Also, perform abdominal training outside of the gym once to twice weekly whenever you have some spare time to “destress.”

If you are motivated, skip day 5. I’m telling you, you are going to feel so fresh that you’re just going to want to train. You’ll look forward to your training sessions, everytime. You get to train more frequently, make more progress, and feel better than ever while doing it.

Joel

Chest is first, with the focus on upper chest where you need the most work. Dips later in the week work the chest again from the vertical plane. You squat once, you deadlift once, everything is covered. You do abs later, just like you planned to. You don’t wear yourself out so that your energy is available for growth from your excess calorie intake.

You asked for opinions, so here’s mine! I think you should keep it simple and short. Enjoy the simplicity of it all after having done the complexity of Ian King’s workouts. Focus your remaining time on eating well and eating big and you’ll grow.

Lisa

9

Ok, so when I said don’t do hacks, I meant machine hacks. I’ve done both machine hacks and front squats, and I believe front squats are far superior to machine hacks.

10

Not sure how many have done a 5X5 program, but in my experience, more than 10 sets per workout can be deletirious to your nervouse system, recovery and gains.

ND, you are similar to a client of mine that has similar scheduling issues. The key that we’ve found in him being able to endure his workouts 3 days in a row is by keeping his workouts under 45 minutes.

That said, do some math. The 5X5 protocol generally recommends 4-5 minute rest periods. If you do 15 sets in a workout, your workout will run 60 minutes on rest time alone. Considering my personal experience, but more importantly the literature on how cortisol negatively effects strength and mass after the 60 minute mark, I’d say the volume you have planned is a little more ambitious than I think you would ideally want.

5 sets of maximal squats or deadlifts will kick the shit out of you. Add on the second exercise you have planned and I think you’ll find that there’s just too much there. Try taking a more Westside/Ian King approach where you do one maximal effort exercise and then assistance exercises for muscle bablance, injury prevention and hypertrophy.

If you’ve never done this type of training before, you’ll have to get used to the effects it has on the nervous system. Typical 8-12 rep ranges don’t fatigue the nervous system and allow you to overload on volume. With this type of training you’ll be focusing on Type II muscle fibers. You may even feel that you’re getting a little flat if you’re used to the energy system overloads associated with hypertrophy training.

5X5 is still the basis for any cycle of my training and I would highly recommend it. I believe that once you experience this type of training, you won’t want to go back to typical bodybuilding training styles. Just think, the same size of a higher quality, less time in the gym, more strength and gains that actually last past your ‘pump’.

You can PM me if you want more specific recommendations, but it sounds like you only need a little input.

11

ND,

Many have given some good tips already. Just wanted to pass on some advice that I haven’t seen anyone mention yet. You said you are trying to pack on mass and reach 200 lbs. Since you are doing DIR, does that mean you are focusing on your calves right now?

From past personal experience and from the advice I’ve seen from most, when you prioritize any body part, you should go maintenance on other body parts. Many of the “specialty” programs (Big Back stack, DIR, EDT arms) require you to drop volume on other body parts.

I’ve tried to combine programs in the past (once went crazy and tried to do a hybrid of 3 programs at once while on Mag-10). Even with Mag-10, it wasn’t enough to keep from overtraining and short-changing results that I could’ve gotten if I had prioritized correctly.

My recommendations:

Day 1
Diamonds in the Rough
Back Squats 3x8-10
Front Squats 3x8-10

Day 2
Chins (medium grip) 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Shoulder Shrugs 3x8
Cable or DB Lateral Raises 3x8

Day 3
Diamonds in the Rough
Stiff Legged Deadlifts 3x8-10
Good mornings 3x8-10

Day 4
Incline Bench 5x5
Flat Bench (wide) 5x5
Close Grip Bench 5x5
Dips 5x5

Just a suggestion – the thinking is this:

  1. Reduce volume on legs because of DIR.
  2. Switch the back and chest day. Partly to do back before deads. Also, the chest day is tougher, so since you are training consecutive days, you can reduce volume/intensity on Day 4 if necessary. It lets you have an easy day between leg days.
  3. Ditch the Shoulder presses and do lateral raises. You will be doing chest in 2 days, so I’d ditch the heavy shoulder presses. Lateral raises should suffice for maintenance / general hypertrophy purposes.
  4. Ditch the flys and DB rows. 5x5 should have you focus on compound movements.
12

Wow guys/gals thanks for the awesome responses. It’s great to have people take the time out to write such detailed and valuable advice. I’m positive I’ll be a better lifter because of it.

Rob: I wasn’t sure if the premise was 4 minutes rest in between sets or 90-120 secs. I’ve done 5x5’s with 90 secs rest in between but that was usually just chins/pulldowns. The rest of my workout was pretty standard 3x8’s or so. Keeping your advice in mind will definitely help me prepare my program better.

Lisa: Terrific post! Your opinion makes perfect sense…and is much appreciated.

JWright: Thanks for the clarification. With the exception of during Phase I of Limping, I never do machine hacks.

OTip: I’m not doing DIR right now…but was considering starting it shortly. I’ve done it in the past with great success, and thought I might want to bring my calves up another notch. However, that’s still up in the air because focusing on calves is not the best way to pack on overall mass which is a higher priority right now I think. That said, your advice is great, and will definitely be taken into consideration.

Thanks again folks. Always good to get great advice from those who know their shit!

13

I have to disagree with the posts about volume being too high. Since you are bulking, it’s my assumption that you are also going to be eating a surplus in calories. I don’t think the volume would be a problem if you are taking in a good amount of calories. Just look at CT’s OVT. It has more volume than your routine. Another thing, Joel’s “ripped,rugged, and dense” routine was made for someone who is dieting. As we know, when we are dieting volume should be lowered. I also aggree with QTip though. If you are doing DIR, then you should put everything else on a maintenance routine.

14

Joel’s revised 5x5 routine is awesome. You will have no problem doing it 4,5,6, days in a row if need be. I have been using it while cutting with excellent results. Again, might be a little different trying to bulk on it but as many will tell you, its not how long you are in there, but the intensity that you work with.

15

I was taking a second look at CT’s OVT program. He suggests working out Day 1,2,4, and 6, with Days 3,5, and 7 off. Since as I meantioned, I can only do Day 1-4, and have days 5-7 off, do you think a routine similar to this will be too much volume in too short a time?

Lifting is such a game of tweaking…but that’s what makes it fun!

16

Having done OVT recently, I think that after the 3rd day in a row I’d be feeling pretty weak, and the 4th day just wouldn’t be effective. But I guess it would depend on your recovery ability.

I still stand by my previous suggestion that you stick with 5x5, as revised by JM, see what progress you’re making and then tweak it from there.

When do you plan to start?

Lisa

17

Lisa makes a good point. I’m not sure how good your recovery is. I would just tweak when necessary like Lisa says.