9/11 is NOT a Conspiracy!

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
There is something I wish you guys would stop saying.

Simply because I feel that a lot of scattered “facts” with no motive or exactly how some incredible feats of sabotage were performed stretches credibility…does NOT mean that I accept the Government’s explanation without question.

Some of you guys think that its “either/or”…you believe the Government or you believe “us” (and some general, group of Architects, whomever…)

I’m approaching all of it with a degree of VERY heavy skepticism.

Also…about the “hints” that this elaborate ruse was perpetrated to “get us into a War in Afghanistan”?

First…we were already there, and had been there for years.

Second…Bin Laden took full responsibility for these bombings and actually posted videos of his celebration afterwards.

Were we in fact in collaboration with him?

If so, why in the world would he want the U.S. to be involved MORE in Afghanistan?

If it was all Governmental…Who planned it? How did they do it? With something that would have required the involvement of at LEAST hundreds of collaborators; why not one “leak” or SOMEBODY coming forth 7 years later? This would LITERALLY be the “Story of the Past Two Centuries” where the U.S. government kills three-thousand plus of it’s citizens and risk the financial health of its entire economy (entire divisions of major Corporations were in those Towers) in order to…do what, exactly?

This can go on and on. But my point is that by not fully accepting a hodge-podge of non-interconnecting “facts” does not make me a sheeple of the U.S. Government.

Mufasa[/quote]

Bin Laden is a CIA agent, they had him in a hospital and could’ve captured him before 9/11 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/28/eveningnews/main325887.shtml), the whole goal of 9/11 is to take away your rights as a citizen with the patriot act. They can also perpetuate this “war on terror”, as there is no clear enemy and they can justify their occupation in the middle. Just look at the Northwood file where the government talks about staging an event so they can “Justifiably” and with UN sanction invade Cuba, the whole Vietnam war was based on a lie, It has now been admitted that the government knew about Pearl Harbor before it happened but let it happen anyways ,In September 2000 a project for a new American century with a neo conservative think tank including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush and Paul Wolfowitz released a report “Rebuilding America’s Defense”, in which they state " The process of transformation, even if it brings on revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, ABSENT SOME CATASTROPHIC AND CATALYZING EVENT- LIKE A NEW PEARL HARBOR. What don’t you see? These people will kill their citizens and lie to the public for their own means, this is a long documented history and there is no reason to think that they have stopped practicing it.

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
I’m curious…

What was supposed to have hit the Pentagon?

Mufasa

A plane was supposed to have hit the Pentagon on 9/11, 2001. [/quote]

That’s part of the the Government’s Story…

What is supposed to have “really” hit the Pentagon?

Mufasa

So…this elaborate, covert ruse was in order…to take away my freedoms??? And it all was done in collaboration with Bin Laden, who is actually a CIA agent??? (By the way…don’t make the mistake of believing that someone on the CIA payroll is a “friend” or collaborator, interested only in the aims of the U.S.)

nik…you and some of the others are doing the same thing you’ve accused others of; answering an inquiry (how, when and by whom such an elaborate scheme was pulled off) by listing all the major covert U.S. foreign policy decisions of the 20th Century.

None of these explain even minutely the complexity of what you guys are suggesting.

You’ll just have to mark me down as one of the Shepple; because I simply can’t study this pivotal event in American History with the same detail, tenacity and passion some of you seem to carry.

And believe me…I care as much about the lives lost as you do…I just don’t believe that simply creating questions with no answers is honoring or helping anyone.

So…

“…BAAAAA…!”

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
So…this elaborate, covert ruse was in order…to take away my freedoms??? And it all was done in collaboration with Bin Laden, who is actually a CIA agent??? (By the way…don’t make the mistake of believing that someone on the CIA payroll is a “friend” or collaborator, interested only the aims of the U.S.)

nik…you and some of the others are doing the same thing you’ve accused others of; answering an inquiry (how, when and by whom such an elaborate scheme was pulled off) by listing all the major covert U.S. foreign policy decisions of the 20th Century.

None of these explain even minutely the complexity of what you guys are suggesting.

You’ll just have to mark me down as one of the Shepple; because I simply can’t study this pivotal event in American History with the same detail, tenacity and passion some of you seem to carry.

And believe me…I care as much about the lives lost as you do…I just don’t believe that simply creating questions with no answers is honoring or helping anyone.

So…

“…BAAAAA…!”

Mufasa[/quote]

Lol I don’t carry any of those things that you said, I just try to sort out the info and to me it looks like an inside job because of all the things I have mentioned. I don’t think any less of you or any others (except Irish of course) that have argued with me. I don’t think you are sheeple, we just differ on opinions on what happened that day. All I am saying is that if you have any questions or doubts about what happened that day, then there needs to be another inquiry. I don’t mean to offend anyone or to call anyone names, just to have a debate where both sides bring up their points, I’m sorry if I have offended anyone (again that apology does not include Irish), it was a fun debate and if I find some new stuff to support my side I will post, likewise I expect you to do the same.

Nik

Fair enough!

Mufasa

Wait when did they admit that they knew about Pearl and did nothing about it?

What lie was Vietnam based on?

And how could Osama be on the CIA payroll when even the pansy known as Clinton tried to kill him with guided missile strikes?

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Petedacook wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
I’m curious…

What was supposed to have hit the Pentagon?

Mufasa

A plane was supposed to have hit the Pentagon on 9/11, 2001.

That’s part of the the Government’s Story…

What is supposed to have “really” hit the Pentagon?

Mufasa

[/quote]

At the time of 9/11 I worked in a building near the Pentagon. It was 12 stories up and had a view of the Pentagon. Although I was in Sacramento, California on 9/11, the people I worked with attested to witnessing something that looked like a plane hit the Pentagon. I have nov reason to doubt them.

Personally, I do not speculate on what possibly hit the Pentagon, or the twin towers. I prefer to look at facts, and raise questions surrounding those facts.

In the case of the Pentagon the damage, and debris was not consistent with boeing 747. Exactly what the building, I do not know and I do not speculate on it.

Mufasa, as you feel those of us arguing that there was something more than the government’s offical story are blanketing the people arguing the government’s story, I have also found that people that question the government’s story are blanketed.

While there are some crazy 9/11 conspiracy theorists out there, I am not one of them and I don’t think the people in this thread are. I have seen alll kind of crap posted by conspiracy whack jobs from reptilians to drone planes. I would hope you could tell we are not those people.

[quote]Slayers wrote:
What lie was Vietnam based on?

[/quote]

Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie that started the Vietnam war.

There were other conspiracies by the US government that never panned out, but later surfaced and scared the crap out of anyone that cared to do a little research.

I am not aware of the govt. admitting knowledge of Pearl Harbor, but there is debate about it.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
And believe me…I care as much about the lives lost as you do…I just don’t believe that simply creating questions with no answers is honoring or helping anyone.

So…

“…BAAAAA…!”

Mufasa[/quote]

Can you name another crime scene where the evidence was quickly ordered to be sunk and recycled BEFORE a complete and full investigation is completed? Is this really standard procedure? Can you name one person that has been charged with the crimes on 9/11 or held accountable for the malfeasance that took place within the government that day? A commercial jet was flown into the Pentagon, ostensibly the most protected office building in the country. This was not covert, and the fact that it happened is not acceptable.

I think a full investigation into this crime, and crime scenes is the least the American people can expect. Instead of an investigation Bush fought tooth and nail against it for nearly two years before he acquiesced and nominated Henry Kissinger as the head of the commission.

I mean really, that is like hiring Michael Vick to investigate a dog fighting ring going on in the back yard of the house he lived in 2 years ago.

It is so absurd not to question this behavior that I shake my head in disbelief. No investigation at a crime scene? RIDICULOUS!

No need to question this behavior. it is obviously aimed at truth.

White House Opposed Formation of Commission

President Bush and Vice President Cheney both contacted then-Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle in the months after 9/11 to insist on strict limits in the scope of any investigation into the attacks. Newsweek reported on February 4, 2002, that Vice President Cheney called Sen. Tom Daschle (D-SD) to “warn” him not to open hearings into the attacks. If Daschle pressed the issue, Cheney “implied he would risk being accused of interfering with the mission” against terrorism.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/inv.terror.probe/

And despite entreaties from the families of victims of 9/11 attacks and a bipartisan group of senators and congressmen, the president vocally resisted forming an investigatory commission. President Bush only relented on November 27, 2002, a year after the attacks.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/

Bush’s Hand-Picked Co-Chairman Steps Down: On November 27, 2002, President Bush appointed Henry Kissinger to head the 9/11 Commission. At the time, the NYT opined the White House had chosen him “to contain an investigation it has long opposed.” Less than a month later, Kissinger resigned from the post over conflicts of interest.

White House Resisted Fully Funding: Time Magazine reported last year that the White House “brushed off” a request by Commission Chairman Tom Kean to boost the investigation’s budget by $11 million, even though the Commission stated it could not complete the investigation without the funds.

White House Opposed Time Extension for Finishing Commission’s Work: In January 2004, President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-IL) opposed granting a two-month extension, even though Commission members said the extra time was necessary to finish their work. Two weeks later, after public outcry, the White House capitulated and announced on February 4, 2004, that it would allow the Commission to have the extra 60 days it needed.

President’s Chief Counsel Tried to Influence Panel: Top White House counsel Alberto Gonzales tried to manipulate the 9/11 Commission, calling Republican commissioners Fred F. Fielding and James R. Thompson just before they gathered on March 24, 2004, to hear the testimony of former White House counterterrorism chief Richard A. Clarke. After the calls, “Fielding and Thompson presented evidence questioning the former official’s credibility,” leading critics to denounce the impropriety of Gonzales’ phone calls.

The Bush administration also sought to withhold key information from the Commission during the investigation. The White House dragged its feet in allowing National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice to testify, and fought hard to limit the president’s appearance before the Commission. The White House also denied Commission members access to critical information, in particular the president’s daily intelligence updates.

White House Refused to Allow National Security Advisor to Testify: On March 28, 2004, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice tried to justify her resistance to testifying in front of the Commission, arguing, “it is a longstanding principle that sitting national security advisers do not testify before the Congress.” The White House soon faced the reality that former top White House officials Lloyd Cutler, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Samuel Berger and John Podesta appeared before congressional committees while serving as advisers to presidents, and that Adm. William Leahy, chief of staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman, appeared before the special congressional panel investigating the Pearl Harbor attacks. On March 30, 2004, the White House finally bowed to pressure and announced that Rice would testify in public under oath before the Commission.

White House Demanded Panel Not Seek Additional Testimony: In exchange for Rice’s testimony, the White House specifically demanded that “the panel agree not to seek testimony from other White House aides,” even if that testimony were to become critical to the Commission’s mandate.

White House Tried to Limit Bush’s Testimony to One Hour: On February 25, 2004, President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney announced “strict limits” surrounding their private interviews with the 9/11 Commission, saying Bush would submit to only a single hour of questioning. On March 2, 2004, the Commission rejected the hour deadline as unacceptable. A week later, on March 10, 2004, White House spokesman Scott McClellan backtracked on the demand, saying, “The president’s going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody’s watching the clock.”

White House Demanded Joint Bush/Cheney Testimony: The White House also demanded that President Bush and Vice President Cheney not be forced to testify under oath and be allowed to testify together, facilitating the potential coordination of their testimony. Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton, members of the Commission, indicated that they would prefer them to testify separately.

White House Denied Request for Presidential Daily Briefs: The Commission struggled with the White House for access to the “Presidential Daily Brief” (PDB), a document presented to the President each morning containing that day’s intelligence. After months of negotiations, the White House limited access to the PDBs to only four commissioners, who then would brief the full ten-member panel. However, although the four-member team “asked to look at 360 PDBs dating back to [1998,] White House counsel Alberto Gonzales permitted them to see just 24.”

White House Denied Access to Panel’s Own Notes: After limiting the number of commissioners who could view the PDBs, the White House refused to give the panel access to notes commissioners with access had taken on them. On March 14, 2004, 15 months after the creation of the Commission, the White House finally agreed to provide the Commission with a 17-page summary of the PDBs from the Bush and Clinton administrations related to al Qaeda.

White House Held Back Additional Documents: On April 1, 2004, it was discovered that the Bush White House had not turned over about 75 percent of the almost 11,000 pages of Clinton records “that document custodians had determined should be released to the Commission investigating the terrorist attacks,” even though the records were vital to the panel’s mission. Clinton “had given authorization to the National Archives to gather evidence from Mr. Clinton’s files that was sought by the independent Commission… But the Bush administration… had final authority to decide what would be turned over.”

As the Bush administration’s efforts to stonewall the 9/11 Commission began to fail, the administration and its allies stepped up their attempts to discredit the Commission, commissioners and witnesses. While Attorney General John Ashcroft launched an unjustified attack on Commission member Jamie Gorelick for her previous work in the Justice Department, the Heritage Foundation was providing a forum for those who sought to discredit the Commission. In an interesting twist, just this month Ashcroft recanted on his criticism of Gorelick.

Ashcroft Attempted to Shift Blame to Gorelick â?? And Just Recently Recanted: Ashcroft used his appearance before the 9/11 Commission to launch a personal attack on Commissioner Jamie Gorelick, who served as deputy attorney general from 1994 to 1997. Ashcroft surprised the Commission and sandbagged Gorelick by releasing a memo she authored in 1995, claiming that it created “the single greatest structural cause for the September 11th problem.” But contrary to Ashcroft’s assertion, Gorelick’s memo intended to facilitate communication within the FBI, helping to overcome existing restrictions on information sharing with their roots in the Reagan and Bush I administrations. Moreover, under questioning by the Commission, Ashcroft later admitted that “his own deputy attorney general, Larry Thompson, had renewed the terms of the Gorelick memo in August 2001.” Ashcroft reversed himself just this month. In July 2004, he conceded that Gorelick’s memo permitted “interaction and information sharing between prosecutors and intelligence officers” and allowed the FBI to use the fruits of an intelligence investigation “in a criminal prosecution.”

Sensenbrenner Impugned Gorelick, Then Got Rebuked by Republican Chairman: Archconservative House Judiciary Chairman James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) also impugned Gorelick by appearing on Fox News and calling on her to resign and stand as a witness before the 9/11 Commission because of her Bush administration-endorsed memo. But Republican 9/11 Commission Chairman Tom Kean “dismissed the request and said Gorelick was one of the hardest-working and nonpartisan members of the commission. He also said she had recused herself from involvement in issues on which she worked while serving in government” â?? a policy that stands for all Commission members with prior government experience.

Delay Attacked 9/11 Panel for Asking Tough Questions: House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) played his usual role of right-wing ringmaster by leading the charge to malign the Commission with unsubstantiated accusations of partisanship. DeLay said, “Some commissioners’ tactics during questioning have served to distort witness statements, cut off witness answers and otherwise blur the distinction between the commission’s work and a prime-time cable talk show.” He also stretched the story by claiming that “the politicization of the commission undermines the war effort [in Iraq] and endangers our troops.” [Congressional Quarterly, 4/16/04]

Heritage Foundation Questioned Need for 9/11 Commission: The Heritage Foundation served as a forum for conservative columnists attacking the existence of the 9/11 Commission. “Let’s shut down the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States – the September 11 Commission. After all, what’s the point?,” wrote columnist Rich Tucker. Paul Rosenzweig wrote that the Commission is “unseemly” for publicizing its work, even though the publicity was being urged by Republican Chairman Tom Kean who “believes the only way to force the government to change is to get the public alarmed and angry at the dysfunctional way the agencies now are operating.”

Murdoch Machine Overlooked Facts In Commenting on Testimony: In an unusual front-page editorial in his New York Post, Australian right-wing billionaire Rupert Murdoch and his media machine attacked Democratic 9/11 commissioners as “shills.” The editorial then went on to make factually inaccurate claims. For instance, it said that pre-9/11 “intelligence reports all talked about attacks occurring against targets overseas,” and that “it clearly was not a fact that President Bush was warned against possible attacks in this country.” The editorial then accused Commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste of slander for saying as much. But Ben-Veniste was entirely accurate: the bipartisan 9/11 congressional inquiry found the Administration received warnings of a possible homeland attack in May 2001, and the president was personally warned on August 6 of “patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks.” The August 6 briefing also warned of the possibility “that a group of Bin Ladin supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives.”

Frist Attacked Clarke, Then Was Contradicted by Party Colleagues: Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) delivered a speech on the floor of the Senate claiming that former Bush counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke, who testified before the 9/11 Commission, “told two entirely different stories” about the Bush administration’s handling of terrorism. Frist implied Clarke had perjured himself by purportedly telling two different stories under oath â?? first to Congress in 2002 and then to the 9/11 Commission this year â?? and threatened severe consequences “if it is found that he has lied before Congress.” But First soon admitted “that he personally had no knowledge that there were any discrepancies” between the two testimonies. Soon after, Intelligence Committee Chairman Sen. Pat Roberts (R-KS) contradicted Frist and said that “Clarke’s testimony before a joint congressional panel on the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks did not contradict his later testimony” before the 9/11 Commission.

Even today, the Bush administration has refused to accept responsibility for the 9/11 attacks, instead passing the counterterrorism buck as far from the president as possible. As columnist Richard Cohen noted, “If the president wants to own Sept. 11” for his political gain “he’s entitled. But it does not come alone. Sept. 10 is his, too.” But while the White House was busy blaming the FBI, the FBI was pointing fingers at the attorney general, who was shooting back at the FBI and CIA.

The White House Blamed the FBI: During questioning before the 9/11 Commission, Rice said, “I also understood that that was what the FBI was doing, that the FBI was pursuing these al Qaeda cells. I believe in the August 6 memorandum it says that there were 70 full field investigations under way of these cells. And so there was no recommendation that we do something about this; the FBI was pursuing it.” Later in the hearing, when pressed on whether the FBI was actually aggressively pursuing terrorism threats in the United States, Rice ducked any White House accountability, “The responsibility for the FBI to do what it was asked was the FBI’s responsibility.” The White House provided The New York Times parts of a classified memo from Richard Clarke to Rice that referenced the tasking of the FBI’s field offices. Then President Bush again put the focus squarely on the FBI, saying “whoever was the Acting FBI Director, had they found something, would have said, Mr. President, we have found something that you need to be concerned about in your duties to protect America. That didn’t happen.”

The FBI Blamed Ashcroft: Newsweek reported an “extraordinary confrontation” between the attorney general and then-FBI director Louis Freeh at the annual meeting of FBI Special Agents in Charge in May 2001. Ashcroft and Freeh met before their appearance and the attorney general laid out his priorities, “‘basically, violent crime and drugs,’ recalls one participant. Freeh replied bluntly that those were not his priorities, and started to talk about terror and counterterrorism. ‘Ashcroft didn’t want to hear about it,’ says a former senior law enforcement official.” The New York Times and Washington Post reported that Thomas J. Pickard, acting director of the FBI in the summer of 2001, told the 9/11 Commission that Ashcroft had “little interest” in terrorism.

Ashcroft Blamed the FBI and CIA: Ashcroft’s press spokesperson, Mark Corallo, asserted that Ashcroft was briefed regularly by the CIA and FBI regarding threats posed by al Qaeda, and “he [Ashcroft] was not briefed that there was any threat to the United States. He kept asking if there was any action he needed to take, and he was constantly told no, you’re doing everything you need to do.”

Clarke Stands Alone in Taking Responsibility: Testifying before the 9/11 Commission, former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke became the first Bush administration official to take responsibility for the failure to protect America in the lead up to the deadly attacks. While President Bush repeatedly said he wanted to “usher in an era of personal responsibility,” neither he nor any of his officials admitted they ignored repeated terror warnings and dramatically reduced counterterrorism efforts before 9/11 (see American Progress’ 9/11 backgrounder for details). Instead, the president has ignored the public record that shows he received warnings, and essentially denied he had any prior warning of an imminent attack.

â?¢ Stonewalling the Commission
â?¢ Attacking the Commission and Its Members
â?¢ Abdicating Responsibility

[quote]Slayers wrote:

And how could Osama be on the CIA payroll when even the pansy known as Clinton tried to kill him with guided missile strikes?

[/quote]

Not that I believe Osama is on the CIA payroll, or anything not stated or implied, but I wanted to point out a discrepancy in your recollection.

Clinton had Osama in a place where he could be killed/apprehended. Clinton backed off due to “political pressure.”

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
Slayers wrote:

And how could Osama be on the CIA payroll when even the pansy known as Clinton tried to kill him with guided missile strikes?

Not that I believe Osama is on the CIA payroll, or anything not stated or implied, but I wanted to point out a discrepancy in your recollection.

Clinton had Osama in a place where he could be killed/apprehended. Clinton backed off due to “political pressure.”

[/quote]

Hold on you are going to tell me you believe some interview of a man that lied on public TV about what he was doing with Monica? He lied for months and said nothing happened then had a change of face.

That boy is nothing but someone worried about his political face and try’s to save it all the time with lies and bull pulled from who knows where.

He launched a cruse missile at Osama but informed Pakistan that he was going to do it. He has also sent in special forces to kill Osama but they were stopped before making contact. The CIA tried to get to him while he was in the hospital but were also told to stand down per presidents orders.

Another problem with this so called pancake theory is this: What happened to the 47 massive steel columns that made up the core of the twin towers, they were the weight bearing structures in the towers. If the pancake theory were true, then these structures should’ve been sticking up several hundred feet in the air. What did the 9/11 commision say about this though? They actually attempted to say that these columns did not exist, eventhough the columns were the unique feature about the twin towers. They then proceeded to say incorrectly that most of the weight of the towers were held in the columns exterior walls, why all these lies. Why did the 9/11 report not even mention the collapse of building 7 within the report, I guess a 47 story building collapsing at freefall speed from fires on 2 of its floors isn’t worthy of even a footnote.

[quote]nik133 wrote:
Another problem with this so called pancake theory is this: What happened to the 47 massive steel columns that made up the core of the twin towers, they were the weight bearing structures in the towers. If the pancake theory were true, then these structures should’ve been sticking up several hundred feet in the air. What did the 9/11 commision say about this though? They actually attempted to say that these columns did not exist, eventhough the columns were the unique feature about the twin towers. They then proceeded to say incorrectly that most of the weight of the towers were held in the columns exterior walls, why all these lies. Why did the 9/11 report not even mention the collapse of building 7 within the report, I guess a 47 story building collapsing at freefall speed from fires on 2 of its floors isn’t worthy of even a footnote.[/quote]

Wrong, are you now an engineer who has studied buildings that have collapsed. Again, the super hot burning jet fuel will weaken the metal, the the weight will cause stuff to collapse. Weak steel cannot hold the load, so it will bend or deform. This then starts a cascade.

No wonder you people are considered loons. You argue the exception, or what you think is the exception , not the rule.

Again, my buddy the rocket scientist said what happened is what he would expect to happen in that situation.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
nik133 wrote:
Another problem with this so called pancake theory is this: What happened to the 47 massive steel columns that made up the core of the twin towers, they were the weight bearing structures in the towers. If the pancake theory were true, then these structures should’ve been sticking up several hundred feet in the air. What did the 9/11 commision say about this though? They actually attempted to say that these columns did not exist, eventhough the columns were the unique feature about the twin towers. They then proceeded to say incorrectly that most of the weight of the towers were held in the columns exterior walls, why all these lies. Why did the 9/11 report not even mention the collapse of building 7 within the report, I guess a 47 story building collapsing at freefall speed from fires on 2 of its floors isn’t worthy of even a footnote.

Wrong, are you now an engineer who has studied buildings that have collapsed. Again, the super hot burning jet fuel will weaken the metal, the the weight will cause stuff to collapse. Weak steel cannot hold the load, so it will bend or deform. This then starts a cascade.

No wonder you people are considered loons. You argue the exception, or what you think is the exception , not the rule.

Again, my buddy the rocket scientist said what happened is what he would expect to happen in that situation.

[/quote]

Actually I quoted that from a retired professor, since I knew that you wouldn’t bother to watch any video or anything that I posted, but you would read what I wrote. Yeah I guess I am a loon because the 9/11 report, attempts to lie about these structures and then they don’t even mention building 7. Can you wake up and see that maybe something is up, if they can blatantly lie to you and completely ommit crutial parts of history of 9/11 from the report. Can you ask your rocket scientist why all the evidence was removed from 9/11 by out of country contracters and why the buildings smoldered for weeks after, or was that just the jet fuel burning up? It’s so great that everyone against finding out what really happened seems to have all these friends who can explain to them why they are so right and why we are so crazy, I think it’s great to quote “my buddy the rocket scientist.”

[quote]tom63 wrote:
nik133 wrote:
Another problem with this so called pancake theory is this: What happened to the 47 massive steel columns that made up the core of the twin towers, they were the weight bearing structures in the towers. If the pancake theory were true, then these structures should’ve been sticking up several hundred feet in the air. What did the 9/11 commision say about this though? They actually attempted to say that these columns did not exist, eventhough the columns were the unique feature about the twin towers. They then proceeded to say incorrectly that most of the weight of the towers were held in the columns exterior walls, why all these lies. Why did the 9/11 report not even mention the collapse of building 7 within the report, I guess a 47 story building collapsing at freefall speed from fires on 2 of its floors isn’t worthy of even a footnote.

Wrong, are you now an engineer who has studied buildings that have collapsed. Again, the super hot burning jet fuel will weaken the metal, the the weight will cause stuff to collapse. Weak steel cannot hold the load, so it will bend or deform. This then starts a cascade.

No wonder you people are considered loons. You argue the exception, or what you think is the exception , not the rule.

Again, my buddy the rocket scientist said what happened is what he would expect to happen in that situation.

[/quote]

Sorry dude, But AE911truth has real scientists, architects and engineers who don’t believe it would happen that way. Over 600 of them. You “buddy” may or may not even exist and if he does exist, hasn’t put in the time researching all the specifics of the case. Just because your real or made up buddy says he didn’t have a problem with the story, doesn’t discount the 600+ scientist, architects and engineers who DO have a problem with it.

So again, you can call us loons, but go call the AE911truth people loons. They will bury you or me or anyone with thier experience in exactly these areas. The government has a “few” architects and engineers who did the work for them and came up with the story. From what I know, there isn’t any of them who have done the math and ran the figures who believe the official story. Again it all comes down to building 7. Let me put up a picture for you to have a look at, and then consider that Building 5 and 6 were basically engulfed in flames, and took a way haevier hit with the debris field and both still stood at the end of the day.

Again, my premise, if building 7 collapsed, it had to be taken down. If they had explosives planted in building 7 then someone knew something.

V

Look, guys…this is just going to have to take some time.

With the scope and magnitude of the conspiracy that you guys are suggesting…SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE did/has/will “slipped up”. In other words, there is a “Zapruder Film” out there; and with time, the “hows” and “whys” will have to come out, most likely from the private sector.

The Government simply will not be the answer. And any Government attempt to “close the book” will be met with as much derision as that guy a few years ago that the Government hired to “close the book” on the Kennedy Assassination. (He essentially supported the findings of the Warren Commission) which has long been found to be lacking in credibility with its findings.

So…until the private sector steps up, 9/11 will continue to be mired in speculation and hearsay.

Mufasa

[quote]Vegita wrote:
tom63 wrote:
nik133 wrote:
Another problem with this so called pancake theory is this: What happened to the 47 massive steel columns that made up the core of the twin towers, they were the weight bearing structures in the towers. If the pancake theory were true, then these structures should’ve been sticking up several hundred feet in the air. What did the 9/11 commision say about this though? They actually attempted to say that these columns did not exist, eventhough the columns were the unique feature about the twin towers. They then proceeded to say incorrectly that most of the weight of the towers were held in the columns exterior walls, why all these lies. Why did the 9/11 report not even mention the collapse of building 7 within the report, I guess a 47 story building collapsing at freefall speed from fires on 2 of its floors isn’t worthy of even a footnote.

Wrong, are you now an engineer who has studied buildings that have collapsed. Again, the super hot burning jet fuel will weaken the metal, the the weight will cause stuff to collapse. Weak steel cannot hold the load, so it will bend or deform. This then starts a cascade.

No wonder you people are considered loons. You argue the exception, or what you think is the exception , not the rule.

Again, my buddy the rocket scientist said what happened is what he would expect to happen in that situation.

Sorry dude, But AE911truth has real scientists, architects and engineers who don’t believe it would happen that way. Over 600 of them. You “buddy” may or may not even exist and if he does exist, hasn’t put in the time researching all the specifics of the case. Just because your real or made up buddy says he didn’t have a problem with the story, doesn’t discount the 600+ scientist, architects and engineers who DO have a problem with it.

So again, you can call us loons, but go call the AE911truth people loons. They will bury you or me or anyone with thier experience in exactly these areas. The government has a “few” architects and engineers who did the work for them and came up with the story. From what I know, there isn’t any of them who have done the math and ran the figures who believe the official story. Again it all comes down to building 7. Let me put up a picture for you to have a look at, and then consider that Building 5 and 6 were basically engulfed in flames, and took a way haevier hit with the debris field and both still stood at the end of the day.

Again, my premise, if building 7 collapsed, it had to be taken down. If they had explosives planted in building 7 then someone knew something.

V[/quote]

And your premise is loony. My buddy does exist, Kevin McClung of MadDog knives. and he knows a lot of people who are in the military current and retired. They all think this is silly. you know the kind of guys that have actually done things they can’t talk about.

Again, you loonies want to ignore any evidence, explanation, or authority that does not support you view. then we are expected to agree with you which is of course your definition of an open mind.

I’m done here, you fellows can wear your tin foil hats and listen to short wave radio and have a great time.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
tom63 wrote:
nik133 wrote:
Another problem with this so called pancake theory is this: What happened to the 47 massive steel columns that made up the core of the twin towers, they were the weight bearing structures in the towers. If the pancake theory were true, then these structures should’ve been sticking up several hundred feet in the air. What did the 9/11 commision say about this though? They actually attempted to say that these columns did not exist, eventhough the columns were the unique feature about the twin towers. They then proceeded to say incorrectly that most of the weight of the towers were held in the columns exterior walls, why all these lies. Why did the 9/11 report not even mention the collapse of building 7 within the report, I guess a 47 story building collapsing at freefall speed from fires on 2 of its floors isn’t worthy of even a footnote.

Wrong, are you now an engineer who has studied buildings that have collapsed. Again, the super hot burning jet fuel will weaken the metal, the the weight will cause stuff to collapse. Weak steel cannot hold the load, so it will bend or deform. This then starts a cascade.

No wonder you people are considered loons. You argue the exception, or what you think is the exception , not the rule.

Again, my buddy the rocket scientist said what happened is what he would expect to happen in that situation.

Sorry dude, But AE911truth has real scientists, architects and engineers who don’t believe it would happen that way. Over 600 of them. You “buddy” may or may not even exist and if he does exist, hasn’t put in the time researching all the specifics of the case. Just because your real or made up buddy says he didn’t have a problem with the story, doesn’t discount the 600+ scientist, architects and engineers who DO have a problem with it.

So again, you can call us loons, but go call the AE911truth people loons. They will bury you or me or anyone with thier experience in exactly these areas. The government has a “few” architects and engineers who did the work for them and came up with the story. From what I know, there isn’t any of them who have done the math and ran the figures who believe the official story. Again it all comes down to building 7. Let me put up a picture for you to have a look at, and then consider that Building 5 and 6 were basically engulfed in flames, and took a way haevier hit with the debris field and both still stood at the end of the day.

Again, my premise, if building 7 collapsed, it had to be taken down. If they had explosives planted in building 7 then someone knew something.

V[/quote]

The whole “There are X number of experts who support X” argument doesn’t really help your cause. You can find 600 lunatics to support anything; it’s a big world.

Plus, it’s duplicitous because it ignores the fact that there are many more experts than that who support the official explanation.

False flag ops are SOP all around the world.

"Why did so many survivors of the Tube bombings say that the explosions came upwards through the floor of the trains, not down, as would be the case if a backpack blew up inside?

And why do no passengers on the London-bound Luton train clearly remember the four bombers with their huge rucksacks on that fateful morning?

There was a mock terrorist exercise going on in London that day.

Former Scotland Yard officer Peter Power said on BBC radio: ‘At half-past nine this morning we were running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up.’

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2009/07/daily-mail-rumours-swell-that.html

9/11 was a false flag op and so was the London tube bombings. Denying these obvious facts means that one is simply…in denial.