8x8, Any Comments?

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]Poetikaal wrote:
My suggestion, then, would be that the sets be timed. perhaps, for example, when the last four sets can be completed within a certain amount of time, the load can be increased via weight on the bar, without increasing the rep range
[/quote]

Do you mean total time for all 4 sets? Or each set must be completed within a certain period of time? Also, how would you determine this time frame? Would it be the same for say, back squats as it would for BB curls? If not, again, how would you figure out the right amount of time to account for the ROM of the movement? And how would you account for different body structures? Like if one lifter was 6’4" and another was 5’2" would they have to still use the same time frame?

Again, how often do you think that someone would be able to reach their goal of finishing the last four sets within their target time frame and increase weight?

See, here’s one of the problems with programs like this one. In order for someone to be able to perform multiple sets at a constant weight (unless again you’re just a volume machine) is to drastically lower the amount of weight that you can use.

Doing a set of 8 with 50% of 1RM would be pretty easy for most people, not much of a stimulus for your muscles to grow. What your program would actually be building would be strength endurance.

By the time you actually reached a weight that was challenging for 8 reps (if you ever reached it), your progress would be painfully slow in trying to get the other 4 sets. And you’d wind up just spinning your wheels.

Good on the rest times, but wouldn’t your set length increasing somewhat go against your notion about having to perform your last 4 sets within a given time frame?

Based on what? You yourself said you have no experience with this program (or even one like it). Can you point me to any physical evidence of someone who trained like this and built large amounts of muscle (BB’ing standards) from it?

42

Poetikaal… Cephalic_Carnage…

Why the fuck are you second guessing this when you yourselves said you have no experience in 8x8. Then you make statements like this:

[quote]We have already established that 8*8 is bull if you want to progress fast. High amount of sets, low weight, etcetcetc.
Even with a reduced amount of exercises, it is just a catchphrase kind of set/rep scheme that doesn’t help you with getting big all that much.
[/quote]

and

[quote]
I would at least halve that and follow something like this:

DAY1 …[/quote]

What the fuck?!?!

[quote]
I dont like doing programs like this, but when if i were to use it, without any knowledge of other predetermined 8x8 programs…[/quote]

8x8 is a fucking good program, it just may not work for you because you like to change the details to suit your own ignorant logic. If you stopped making your own interpretations and actually did the program as part of a periodic series, you would find you would get fuck-loads of gains.

Hey, German 10x10 works exactly like 8x8, but no one gets gains off that, do they? I did 10x10 with the same fucking weight and the same fucking short rest periods, and I put on 4lb in 3 weeks.

Take your hypothesis somewhere else.

43

[quote]forevernade wrote:
Poetikaal… Cephalic_Carnage…

Why the fuck are you second guessing this when you yourselves said you have no experience in 8x8. Then you make statements like this:

We have already established that 8*8 is bull if you want to progress fast. High amount of sets, low weight, etcetcetc.
Even with a reduced amount of exercises, it is just a catchphrase kind of set/rep scheme that doesn’t help you with getting big all that much.

and

I would at least halve that and follow something like this:

DAY1 …

What the fuck?!?!

I dont like doing programs like this, but when if i were to use it, without any knowledge of other predetermined 8x8 programs…

8x8 is a fucking good program, it just may not work for you because you like to change the details to suit your own ignorant logic. If you stopped making your own interpretations and actually did the program as part of a periodic series, you would find you would get fuck-loads of gains.

Hey, German 10x10 works exactly like 8x8, but no one gets gains off that, do they? I did 10x10 with the same fucking weight and the same fucking short rest periods, and I put on 4lb in 3 weeks.

Take your hypothesis somewhere else.[/quote]

Dude, no offense, but you weigh 147 lbs at 5’8" tall. The fact that you gained 4 lbs in 3 weeks isn’t exactly spectacular. You are likely still in the newbie gains stage, in which just about any program will result in some size gains. But hey, at least you’re gaining, so keep at it.

Carnage is literally twice your size at the same height. I think he knows a thing or two about gaining muscle size, and is well, well past the newbie gains stage.

If you ever get to that size and can honestly say that 8x8 or 10x10 is what got you there, then we’ll be all ears.

44

Sigh, I shouldn’t have to defend situation. To cut the story short I dislocated my shoulder. My heaviest weight was 170lb at 9%, so yes, he has more experienced more gym time in his 8 years training, and is heavier, and I still stand by my statement that there is credible evidence that 8x8 and 10x10 programs work brilliantly for periods of 2-4 weeks and that the OP should not be told that it is [quote]already established that 8*8 is bull if you want to progress fast[/quote].

45

In regards to the nutrition should you be doing the 8*8 system… and i doubt many people have the fortitude to do it here is his nutrition:

Vince Gironda Eggs Diet Print

2-3 dozen eggs a day is a lot, especially if your current diet is moderate in protein and fat. Take it easy at first, and remember you will not be taking in any carbohydrates (assuming you are doing the fat loss diet) except once every 3-4 days in the form of a carb only meal.

Cooking and eating 2-3 dozen cooked eggs a day is difficult, but I found shakes to be the most convenient way of getting my fill.

One shake consists of:

Cream (half and half)
12 eggs (raw)
Water and Ice
Pure protein powder (quality whey/or milk and egg) - the powder is mainly for flavor.

Drink this throughout your morning as breakfast.

Adjust the volume to your preference (ie. taste and consistency).

And adjust the egg content to what you can handle (ex. 6 eggs x 3 x day = 1.5 doz. = half way to 3 doz.)

Repeat at noon and evening. Or make several shakes in the morning and bring them with you to work (so long as you have a fridge for storage).

If you want to eat, eat some eggs or meat. But you’ll probably find your appetite calms down, and your cravings will subside.

The diet was…

eggs: unlimited
meat: unlimited
…“thats it, any questions?”

remember to take digestive enzymes, an EFA blend, and a quality multi-vit (good b complex)
Vince liked liver tabs, and glandulars as well.

If you are not trying to lose bodyfat then just keep your carb intake moderate. By moderate I mean have some toast with your eggs, or enjoy a small veggie side dish with your steak. What I don’t mean is inhaling worthless cereals, or other processed starchy foods with every meal. The kind of carbs you ingest doesn’t matter…it all becomes a form a glucose (sugar) and will cause an insulin response (usually leading to bodyfat deposits). The exception would be fiberous food products, as your body cannot digest them.

46

Furthermore, does anyone see where a certain person could have sourced his idea re: the V-Diet :slight_smile:

I will begin cutting in maybe a year or two once i get to in or around the 300lb mark, and this will be my diet of choice.

47

Y’all gotta relax lol.

Weight training is all about trying shit out to see what works best for YOUR body.

For some it’s ws4sb, 5x5, 8x8, 100x100…whatever…

After about 7 years training; I’m JUST STARTING to figure out what works best for me.

Let people try shit out, if they fail…at least they have learned what DOESN’T work.

48

[quote]B rocK wrote:
Y’all gotta relax lol.

Weight training is all about trying shit out to see what works best for YOUR body.

For some it’s ws4sb, 5x5, 8x8, 100x100…whatever…

After about 7 years training; I’m JUST STARTING to figure out what works best for me.

[/quote] Dude… I know no huge bodybuilder who depends on some catchphrase-rep-scheme routine… And while I don’t mean to be an ass:
It took you 7 whole years? Seriously? That’s about the amount of time it takes the average drug free big guy (provided he has his head on straight…) to… get seriously big.
Is there something wrong with people listening to some more experienced guy(s) instead of wasting their time like that?[quote]

Let people try shit out, if they fail…at least they have learned what DOESN’T work.[/quote]

49

C_C

What I meant by “After about 7 years training; I’m JUST STARTING to figure out what works best for me.” is:

I’ve played around with enough “types” of workouts, all sorts of rep/set schemes and done all sorts of differing lifts…and I am able to now say that I know what works best for me.

Granted I didn’t spend ALL SEVEN YEARS staring at the progress I made/didn’t make…afterall…I did have somewhat of a lift at college.

I just had a conversation with a good friend and a very powerful lifter who’s been training for longer and he too told me that he’s starting to understand just what works for his body.

I don’t think that there is any “set time” for people to figure themselves out; but the fact that I’ve been weightlifting/training for 7 years isn’t a super long period of time.

Afterall, everyone is constantly evolving and changing…thus making it a bit more difficult to nail down WHAT works for us.

Hopefully after all that ranting I got my point across.

50

Why try out so many programs ?

In the 7 years i have been training i have had 4 programs… THATS IT !

I have 2 for hypertrophy
1 for strength
1 for fixing the major lifts should they come to a crawl.

Now i like T-Nation in that it offers loads of good programs, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

People get so wrapped up in the emotional side of starting a new program, they dont give their old one TIME to have any effect.

And 7 years to find out ?

51

Seriously 10x10 or 8x8 might be great (hey that rhymes) but personally it all just seems like a huge headache. Almost like one of those programs that say “Use exactly 83% of your max for 12 sets of 3 reps, timing your rest periods to exactly 65 seconds in order to induce maximum mitochondrial stimulus and make you huge”.

Why complicate lifting like that? I mean no offence towards people who train that way and like training that way, but I simply refuse to believe that the human body is hardwired such that manipulating these factors to such a degree is going to cause a big difference in size and strength over the long term.

I wish peopel would just cut to the brass tacks and focus on thoroughly pounding a muscle in it’s respective workout while simply focussing on GETTING STRONGER instead of all this dogma.

How much bigger would you be if you worked 100% on doubling the poundages of your core exercises (for reps) over the next few years than wondering if you missed a set or two on your ‘10x10’ secret 1970’s Gironda hypertrophy system, or agonizing how to set up your 8x8 program like people on this thread seem to be doing?

I know this whole ‘PROGRESSIVE POUNDAGES IN GOOD FORM’ is being mentioned over and over again on these forums like a broken record, and I am not telling people to stop being creative with their workouts, but I think it’s important that the above concept that I eloquently typed in capitals needs to be brought to the fore more often than not.

I am sure 8x8 will give you great results… if you make sure that in a year’s time you are lifting noticeably more weight than when you first started. The problem people like CC and Sento et al. have with this kind of a program is that it is just so damn slow to progress on. Why do 8 straight sets of an exercise if that is going to limit your poundage progression?

Will you be bigger exactly 1 year from now doing 8 straight sets of 8 with 240lb or by going a different route where you progress faster up to a single extremely heavy set of 8 with 315lb? I know this is really just theory and a lot of the die-hard bodybuilders who are huge fans of Gironda and classical 70’s volume stuff are going to point out how difficult it is to get to a 300lb set of 8 for most people in comparison to that 8x8 with a lighter weight, and that it’s ‘unrealistic’, but how many people are benching volume style doing tons of sets with relatively low weight and yet just stay the same? Bodybuilding is not for everyone and perhaps people can get fantastic physiques without getting to very heavy weights, but the point is that lifting HEAVIER and HEAVIER weights over time is what is going to add inches to your pecs.

And I just don’t understand why you would train in a way that limits the poundage progression that you can make.

That’s me and I could be wrong and no doubt someone smarter than me (like CT) is going to come out and call me an idiot and pull out studies that prove otherwise, but this is how I (and I am sure several others) think and it’s what I have seen and read to be the case in bodybuilding. I know that it’s been discussed to death here and I don’t like looking like a fanboy but DC really did open my eyes.

Wow that was long.

52

[quote]Der Candy wrote:
Seriously 10x10 or 8x8 might be great (hey that rhymes) but personally it all just seems like a huge headache. Almost like one of those programs that say “Use exactly 83% of your max for 12 sets of 3 reps, timing your rest periods to exactly 65 seconds in order to induce maximum mitochondrial stimulus and make you huge”. Why complicate lifting like that? I mean no offence towards people who train that way and like training that way, but I simply refuse to believe that the human body is hardwired such that manipulating these factors to such a degree is going to cause a big difference in size and strength over the long term.

I wish peopel would just cut to the brass tacks and focus on thoroughly pounding a muscle in it’s respective workout while simply focussing on GETTING STRONGER instead of all this dogma.

How much bigger would you be if you worked 100% on doubling the poundages of your core exercises (for reps) over the next few years than wondering if you missed a set or two on your ‘10x10’ secret 1970’s Gironda hypertrophy system, or agonizing how to set up your 8x8 program like people on this thread seem to be doing?

I know this whole ‘PROGRESSIVE POUNDAGES IN GOOD FORM’ is being mentioned over and over again on these forums like a broken record, and I am not telling people to stop being creative with their workouts, but I think it’s important that the above concept that I eloquently typed in capitals needs to be brought to the fore more often than not.

I am sure 8x8 will give you great results… if you make sure that in a year’s time you are lifting noticeably more weight than when you first started. The problem people like CC and Sento et al. have with this kind of a program is that it is just so damn slow to progress on. Why do 8 straight sets of an exercise if that is going to limit your poundage progression? Will you be bigger exactly 1 year from now doing 8 straight sets of 8 with 240lb or by going a different route where you progress faster up to a single extremely heavy set of 8 with 315lb? I know this is really just theory and a lot of the die-hard bodybuilders who are huge fans of Gironda and classical 70’s volume stuff are going to point out how difficult it is to get to a 300lb set of 8 for most people in comparison to that 8x8 with a lighter weight, and that it’s ‘unrealistic’, but how many people are benching volume style doing tons of sets with relatively low weight and yet just stay the same? Bodybuilding is not for everyone and perhaps people can get fantastic physiques without getting to very heavy weights, but the point is that lifting HEAVIER and HEAVIER weights over time is what is going to add inches to your pecs. And I just don’t understand why you would train in a way that limits the poundage progression that you can make.

That’s me and I could be wrong and no doubt someone smarter than me (like CT) is going to come out and call me an idiot and pull out studies that prove otherwise, but this is how I (and I am sure several others) think and it’s what I have seen and read to be the case in bodybuilding. I know that it’s been discussed to death here and I don’t like looking like a fanboy but DC really did open my eyes.

Wow that was long.[/quote]

Long doesn’t mean bad. (Just ask the ladies :wink:

53

[quote]forevernade wrote:
Sigh, I shouldn’t have to defend situation. To cut the story short I dislocated my shoulder. My heaviest weight was 170lb at 9%, so yes, he has more experienced more gym time in his 8 years training, and is heavier, and I still stand by my statement that there is credible evidence that 8x8 and 10x10 programs work brilliantly for periods of 2-4 weeks and that the OP should not be told that it is already established that 8*8 is bull if you want to progress fast.[/quote]

Where? Where is this credible evidence that 8x8 and 10x10 programs work brilliantly? Because Poliquin says so? Not good enough, let’s see some pictures of people who got huge off these programs.

Also, unless you’re an athlete and need to develop multiple attributes (strength, explosiveness, endurance, technique, etc…) why would you only want to think in terms of programs that are going to work for 2-4 weeks (and heck, most athletes use longer periods than that when doing classical linear periodization anyhow)?

How about a program that continues working 6 monts-1 year? Or heck, for years at a time? Wouldn’t it make more sense to do something that’s going to result in better long term gains (and quite possibly just as good, if not better short term gains)? Because big muscles aren’t built in a month or two. They take years of hard work to develop.

And as far as having to defend your situation, yes you really should have to. There are lots of armchair experts spouting false (or at best unsubstantiated) truths all over the internet. The fact that you weigh 147 at your height with relatively little experience means that you should have to back up your statements with evidence. The fact that Carnage weighs twice what you do at the same height and has substantially more experience is all the evidence he needs to say things like “8x8 is bull if you want to progress fast”.

I’m sorry to hear that you dislocated your shoulder, but even 170 at your height is nothing head turning. Again, get up to 260+ relatively lean and come back and tell us that 10x10 or 8x8 is what got you there, or point us to some other huge BB’ers who got to that size using those programs and your statements about it working brilliantly will have some weight.

Until you do though, why should people who are serious about progress do such programs?

In other words, if there is no real world evidence to back up a claim, why should anyone take it seriously? On the other hand, if there is tons of real world evidence to back up a claim, why wouldn’t you want to listen to it?

54

[quote]B rocK wrote:
C_C

What I meant by “After about 7 years training; I’m JUST STARTING to figure out what works best for me.” is:

I’ve played around with enough “types” of workouts, all sorts of rep/set schemes and done all sorts of differing lifts…and I am able to now say that I know what works best for me.

Granted I didn’t spend ALL SEVEN YEARS staring at the progress I made/didn’t make…afterall…I did have somewhat of a lift at college.

I just had a conversation with a good friend and a very powerful lifter who’s been training for longer and he too told me that he’s starting to understand just what works for his body.

I don’t think that there is any “set time” for people to figure themselves out; but the fact that I’ve been weightlifting/training for 7 years isn’t a super long period of time.

Afterall, everyone is constantly evolving and changing…thus making it a bit more difficult to nail down WHAT works for us.

Hopefully after all that ranting I got my point across.[/quote]

That’s one of the problems with the huge amounts of information out there IMO. People get pulled in so many different directions, and there are so many shiny new programs, exercises, diets, and concepts to try out that people wind up taking forever to finally come back to the basics that work for just about everyone.

Some guys get it right, right off the bat (either they’re lucky enough to have a good mentor, or they just instinctually know how to stick to the basics). But you see far too many people wasting a lot of time “figuring out what works best for them”. I’m not saying that it’s not something you can avoid doing. Just that people waste a lot of time doing it because of all the fad/gimmicky material out there.

What Carnage (and myself) are trying to say is to stick to the basics. Eat big to keep the scale moving up, get progressively stronger for moderate reps on lifts that allow for good progression, and rest enough.

What ever program allows you to do these things fastest is the one you should be doing. Very few (if any) people are going to be able to add weight to the bar at the fastest rate possible doing an 8x8 or 10x10 program. So, it’s going to result in relatively slow progress.

The whole “do what works best for you” has more to do with exercise selection and frequency/recovery abilities, and yes volume as well, than trying every new program that comes out.

55

Good stuff Sento, you’re better at putting my thoughts into words than I am lol.

56

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
B rocK wrote:
C_C

What I meant by “After about 7 years training; I’m JUST STARTING to figure out what works best for me.” is:

I’ve played around with enough “types” of workouts, all sorts of rep/set schemes and done all sorts of differing lifts…and I am able to now say that I know what works best for me.

Granted I didn’t spend ALL SEVEN YEARS staring at the progress I made/didn’t make…afterall…I did have somewhat of a lift at college.

I just had a conversation with a good friend and a very powerful lifter who’s been training for longer and he too told me that he’s starting to understand just what works for his body.

I don’t think that there is any “set time” for people to figure themselves out; but the fact that I’ve been weightlifting/training for 7 years isn’t a super long period of time.

Afterall, everyone is constantly evolving and changing…thus making it a bit more difficult to nail down WHAT works for us.

Hopefully after all that ranting I got my point across.

That’s one of the problems with the huge amounts of information out there IMO. People get pulled in so many different directions, and there are so many shiny new programs, exercises, diets, and concepts to try out that people wind up taking forever to finally come back to the basics that work for just about everyone.

Some guys get it right, right off the bat (either they’re lucky enough to have a good mentor, or they just instinctually know how to stick to the basics). But you see far too many people wasting a lot of time “figuring out what works best for them”. I’m not saying that it’s not something you can avoid doing. Just that people waste a lot of time doing it because of all the fad/gimmicky material out there.

What Carnage (and myself) are trying to say is to stick to the basics. Eat big to keep the scale moving up, get progressively stronger for moderate reps on lifts that allow for good progression, and rest enough.

What ever program allows you to do these things fastest is the one you should be doing. Very few (if any) people are going to be able to add weight to the bar at the fastest rate possible doing an 8x8 or 10x10 program. So, it’s going to result in relatively slow progress.

The whole “do what works best for you” has more to do with exercise selection and frequency/recovery abilities, and yes volume as well, than trying every new program that comes out.

[/quote]

I agree man, good points.

In the recent past I’ve been able to figure out my xercise selection and frequency/recovery abilities and that has been a major factor thats helped me greatly.

It took a while for me to see thru all the BS and “shiny new” shit that was out there and really focus on things.

A lot of help came FROM this website. As well as having a solid group of guys to train around.

300and above, hopefully that answered your question as well.

Enough of this. I think my end of the topic has been talked to death. And I’m hungry.

57

8x8 or 10x10 is to be used when:

  1. You’re eating a solid caloric surplus. 2500 calories isn’t solid. 1500 calories more than your BMR is solid enough.

  2. You are on a cycle of prohormones, AS, or both.

  3. You have a solid supplement stack with creatine (if it works for you) and whatever you need for peri workout nutrition.

  4. You’ve consistently been training with less taxing methods and with proper nutrition for a while before trying this and you haven’t had significant results in a while. This should be used as an atomic weapon and not as “just another program.”

If 3 of these are satisfied, you probably can go ahead and try either 8x8 or 10x10, but with caution.

58

[quote]Josh Rider wrote:
8x8 or 10x10 is to be used when:

  1. You’re eating a solid caloric surplus. 2500 calories isn’t solid. 1500 calories more than your BMR is solid enough.

  2. You are on a cycle of prohormones, AS, or both.

  3. You have a solid supplement stack, that should include necessary amino acid supplementation, creatine (if it works for you), and whatever you need for peri workout nutrition.

  4. You’ve consistently been training with less taxing methods and with proper nutrition for a while before trying this and you haven’t had significant results in a while. This should be used as an atomic weapon and not as “just another program.”

If 3 of these are satisfied, you probably can go ahead and try either 8x8 or 10x10, but with caution.

[/quote]

How about you don’t waste your time on that shit and do something which allows for better progression?

I hope you people at least have fun on those programs and all the while gaining a measly 10-15 pounds a year.

#Edit: If even.

59

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

How about you don’t waste your time on that shit and do something which allows for better progression?

I hope you people at least have fun on those programs and all the while gaining a measly 10-15 pounds a year.

#Edit: If even.[/quote]

I know i might just as well open a can of worms, but as far as im concerned 80% of ANYTHING to do with body tranformation is connected to nutrition.

As i said in 7 years i have 4 programs, some people it seems use 4 in 4 weeks if not days !

So as far as programs are concerned, i believe that ANY program that allows you to do more reps, more weight, more sets more … will do.

If a program doesn’t work for you, dont fucking use it but saying its shit is pretty silly … people use a program for 1 week then declare its shit… i mean for fucks sake at LEAST stay on it for 6 months if not a year and see if your continually progressing.

People saying it took 7 years to see what works… how hard is it…

Lift heavy weight… continually progress in any fashioon you can… and eat alot… and dont forget sleep…

Why i am getting so ratty is that VInce Gironda has been there done that, got more people there but some fucking armchair experts are saying NO ITS SHIT DONT DO IT.

SO Sento, your into bodybuilding as far as i can tell… are you saying if Vince Gironda said it works, you would STILL argue with him NO ITS SHIT ???

When Vince was training Mohammed Makkawy for the Olympia, he had Mohammed conditioned to the point of doing 8 sets in as little as 5 minutes or less.

Look up his pictures some fing time and come back and repeat “NO IT DOESNT WORK”

AH i give up

60

And before any other other armchair expert asks for PROOF !
During his heyday, Vince was credited with turning out more Mr. America and Mr. Universe champions than any trainer in history. Two of Vince’s most famous pupils were Larry Scott, the first Mr. Olympia, and Mohammed Makkawy, twice runner-up in the Olympia (behind Samir Bannout in 1983 and Lee Haney in 1984).

While he himself was one of the 1st people to come in perfectly ripped, some say TOO ripped.

And all this with NO STEROIDS, but im just waiting for the its all GENETICS DUDE or some other tripe.