7 Yr Old Girl Killed in Police Raid

[quote]WWEAttitude wrote:
This was RACISM pure and simple. I realized that immediately as soon as I read the headline and saw that this happened in Detroit. Detroit is full of racist pigs. Somehow I doubt the cops would’ve had this sort of indiscretion if they were dealing with a typical white family in the suburbs, but no cuz we’re dealing with uncivilized blacks living in the ghetto it should be alright? The fact that there were newspapers reporting the neighbours telling the cops about toys in the front yard, indicating the presence of children just proves that they wanted to power trip and humiliate this family.[/quote]

hes got the WWEAttitude!

Making some mighty assumptions… thats all I have for you.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

It must be great being a non-minority.[/quote]

Why? Because minorities are the only ones who get fucked over by the police?

I’m white, I’ve gotten my ass kicked in the back of a cop car. The whole time cuffed and not putting up any fight.

Randall Dale Adams - Wikipedia This guy was white. And innocent. He went to prison and was setup by white cops and a couple black witnesses.

A few more whites that didn’t do too well: Waco siege - Wikipedia

And probably the worst of all ( Ruby Ridge - Wikipedia ). Guy’s wife shot in the head by a sniper as she was holding her baby, taking her to safety.

I agree blacks deal with alot more shit than whites. But just being white doesn’t exempt you from being abused by the police or the government. Th

[quote]WWEAttitude wrote:
This was RACISM pure and simple. I realized that immediately as soon as I read the headline and saw that this happened in Detroit. Detroit is full of racist pigs. Somehow I doubt the cops would’ve had this sort of indiscretion if they were dealing with a typical white family in the suburbs, but no cuz we’re dealing with uncivilized blacks living in the ghetto it should be alright? The fact that there were newspapers reporting the neighbours telling the cops about toys in the front yard, indicating the presence of children just proves that they wanted to power trip and humiliate this family.[/quote]

You knew soon as you read the headline? There’s no white people in Detroit? Interesting. There’s no such thing as poor white people living in ghettos? Same shit could’ve happened to a white family in a poor neighborhood.

Google “Ruby Ridge” and you’ll see a pretty fucked up situation. It happened to white people living out in the fucking sticks. An unarmed woman was shot in the head by a sniper while holding her baby.

why is it always black and white… i want some love too! brown power!

Sometimes I regret doing this, but I hope a few of you guys will take my perspective on this with some maturity as I have been a police officer for over 10 years and I am also assigned as a trainer in the tactics field and am a member of a SWAT team.

Of course, there is very little information to go on here. If any of you think you can make a reasonable assessment of what happened, you are wrong. Much more needs to be known. Perhaps it will turn out that some of you guys “guessed” correctly when the smoke clears, but right now you are talking out of your ass if your mind is completely made up about how this whole shitstorm went down.

That said, these are the observations I have at this point.

-This was not a drug raid. They were there looking for a 34 year old suspect who is believed to have gunned down a 17 year old on a sidewalk in front of his girlfriend. I have stated in a previous thread that the over-abundance of military-style raids with the intent of finding drugs, often small quantities of marijuana, in private homes, is troubling. This is a much different ballgame and I hope that nobody thinks the police were unjustified in being there. Explain that to me if you feel that way.

-Is there not some culpability on the part of the family for harboring this person in the home with a 7 year old girl?(I realize that they may have had no idea he was wanted for a brutal murder but my experience with these things has been that the family knows full well what is going on. Just a personal observation).

-With the above stated, I can’t really figure why the SWAT team did not do a little more recon on the house and the occupants. Without giving away “trade secrets”, there is a philosophical movement in the tactical community that puts priority on “surround and call out”. That means the SWAT team would set up a perimeter around the home that nobody would be able to penetrate and then start negotiating with whoever is inside to arrange a surrender. That does a number of things. Hopefully, that would have allowed them to discover that there was a 7 year old inside and arrangements could have been made to get her out ASAP. Like I said, I am not going to discuss those procedures in depth but there are times when a dynamic hit on the residence would be called for, even in the eyes of the most conservative team. Without knowing all of the circumstances on the ground at this incident, I can’t say for sure. There are also different SOP’s and training methods to deal with. Detroit might be one of those teams that is taught to always “go,go,go” and if so, that mindset will need to be examined. Personally, I think surround and call-out is very viable and the safest way to get innocent people out of harm’s way. Bad things happen when heavily armed guys rush a house, jacked up on adrenaline because they are looking for a suspected murderer. Pushing hard like that should generally be a last resort or saved for very extreme, specific incidents when time is of the essence or people will die for sure.

-Flashbangs are a very necessary part of our arsenal. They just should probably be used with the same conservative mindset I described above as they are very dangerous. If you pick one up or are standing next to it when it goes off, say goodbye to your hand or foot. They also can cause fires if you are not careful. I have seen SOP’s that don’t allow for the use of a noise flash diversion device if a very elderly or very young child is in the house. That is why recon and slowing the situation down as much as possible is very important…so you know those things.

-I don’t know how the fatal shot was fired. I saw that article above in which that attorney is claiming there is a video showing an officer tossing a flashbang through a window and then firing a shot immediately after. That really doesn’t make sense and I consider it unlikely, but who knows. It could have happened I guess and that guy will have a lot of explaining to do. Let’s instead consider the scenario of one of the guys making entry and getting in a fight with one of the occupants which lead to a round being discharged and the girl being struck. A couple of posters have implied or flat-out stated that a gun could not have been discharged accidentally during a scuffle. Bullshit. I have seen (and heard of) all types of situations leading to fingers or something else getting in a trigger guard and causing a gun to discharge. It can happen. Good selection, good training and good SOP’s can minimize the risk but not eliminate it entirely, especially when we are dealing with someone actively fighting with you. Maybe I can comment on that more precisely if I get more details about the way the shot was fired but it is tough to do so with the very sparse information I have now.

-This discussion should not proceed at all into the territory of race unless some information comes to light that shows bias directly impacted the tragedy that occurred. I don’t know a lot about Detroit’s SWAT team but I do know that they have a very high proportion of minority officers, for what it is worth.

-At the end of the day, my somewhat educated guess(and nothing more, mind you) is that this incident was probably a failure of tactics. It is almost always better to slow these things down.

On a personal note, nothing breaks my heart more than seeing kids wrapped up in the affairs of bad adults. It has almost brought me to tears on a number of occasions and that is not an easy thing at this point in my life. As far removed as I am from this incident, it is still affecting me in a way and I am torn up about this little girl. Its our job as cops to adjust, throttle back and do everything in our power to stop these things from happening.

I hope the community where this happened takes the same attitude and rejects the type of person who initiated this whole thing.

[quote]mapwhap wrote:

  1. One of you mentioned muzzle discipline. I ask you…any of you…to go try an experiment. Get an Air-Soft pistol. Set up the same scenario. See how successful you are at controlling the muscle of your pistol when you are fighting to maintain control of it. Most officers receive very limited training regarding weapon retention in a dynamic scenario. It’s not a major focus. I doubt many of you would fare any better.
    [/quote]

Funny you say that. As a younger kid I was avidly into airsoft and I never had such an accident go off, and we often had close combat semi indoor scenarios… good times. Anyway that was after me and my couple weeks, maybe months of AMATEUR, SELF, gun training. Somebody who does this as a fucking profession, with actual lives on the line should not make such a mistake, ever.

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]mapwhap wrote:

  1. One of you mentioned muzzle discipline. I ask you…any of you…to go try an experiment. Get an Air-Soft pistol. Set up the same scenario. See how successful you are at controlling the muscle of your pistol when you are fighting to maintain control of it. Most officers receive very limited training regarding weapon retention in a dynamic scenario. It’s not a major focus. I doubt many of you would fare any better.
    [/quote]

Funny you say that. As a younger kid I was avidly into airsoft and I never had such an accident go off, and we often had close combat semi indoor scenarios… good times. Anyway that was after me and my couple weeks, maybe months of AMATEUR, SELF, gun training. Somebody who does this as a fucking profession, with actual lives on the line should not make such a mistake, ever.[/quote]

Airsoft guns generally have a higher trigger pull then actual guns… or at least thats my experience with them… maybe my guns are just really light on the pull.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
. [/quote]

Good post

[quote]JD430 wrote:

-Flashbangs are a very necessary part of our arsenal. They just should probably be used with the same conservative mindset I described above as they are very dangerous. If you pick one up or are standing next to it when it goes off, say goodbye to your hand or foot. They also can cause fires if you are not careful. I have seen SOP’s that don’t allow for the use of a noise flash diversion device if a very elderly or very young child is in the house. That is why recon and slowing the situation down as much as possible is very important…so you know those things.
[/quote]

Not getting into any of the speculations of where the shot can from or any of that but reading through this thread the one thought I had was, “Why even use a flashbang in this situation?” I have some experience with insertions being in the Army but by no means am I an expert. In this situation just pure Violence of Action should have been more than enough to get the job done. SOP should dictate(as well as account for an unknown) what to do with a youth being in the house and how to extract it. As you said recon on this failed them but IMO so did their tactics and training.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Maybe I misread the story but they actually found the suspect in the house in which they got the warrant. So apparently their suspicion was correct.

Also, it is not an overreaction for police to go into a house aggressively, with appropriate force where there is a MURDER suspect hiding. Murder is pretty serious business. Water bongs, etc. or whatever else you’re referring to, I agree, although I’m not even sure which article you’re referring to.[/quote]

The thing is, he was a suspect, not a convict. It is the guilty unto proven innocent mindset that I think he was pointing to.

[quote]samdan wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
EDIT: I believe the article said the weapon discharged while an officer was in a struggle with the GRANDMOTHER of the victim? Or am I wrong?

Very sad though about the little girl.

.greg.[/quote]

Think for a second about how an officer preparing for possible confrontation is going to hold a rifle. He’s going to hold it in front of him, across his body from shoulder to hip, muzzle pointing down. This prevents most accidental discharges from being harmful to anyone, however it puts the officer at a serious disadvantage when he’s involved in an altercation with someone who he cannot “tactically disarm” either via shooting or attacking.

I’m not going to say that the officers aren’t to blame for the death, but if the reason for the girl dying is that she was first hurt by a flashbang that had a VERY low chance of landing and STAYING right next to her on a couch, and then an accidental discharge while grandma is running at armed policemen and wrestling with them… That’s not what I’d call police brutality, it’s what I’d call a confluence of unfortunate circumstances. As far as police using flashbangs in an urban setting, it’s as simple as a reaction to increasingly violent offenders who are more than willing to kill a policeman without a second thought.

This isn’t the police’s fault (from the information provided in the article) any more than the murder suspect who first kills someone in front of a, presumably occupied, store while he’s walking with someone else, and then goes and hides in his family’s house. Yes, police brutality happens and it’s a serious thing, however I really hate the people who just immediately point all the fingers at the police when something bad happens. If there weren’t people out there committing horrible acts and harming completely innocent people, do you really think cops would sometimes be this brutal?[/quote]

Yeah, but shooting this seven year old is not justified even if it was not brutality.

[quote]fireflyz wrote:

[quote]

If police did things “properly”, they obeyed all regulations, AND a little girl was both burned and shot, something must be wrong with the regulations.

Something really bad happened, either the individual officers or the system they operate in must necessarily be wrong.[/quote]

I disagree. It’s easy to think that from the comfort of your arm chair. Even easier if you’ve never dealt with firearms or have never dealt with firearms while entering a room with someone the intel says is dangerous. (I’m not saying “you” in particular, but in general…I don’t know if you have that kind of experience or not) The training can be good…the system can be good…and shit still happens. I’m not saying that’s the case here. Some of the above posts did a very good job of highlighting some of the possibilities of how such a thing could occur and be a pure accident. Until there is an investigation and/or more information put out it will be impossible to say. I do get annoyed when people rush to judgement though. For all we know the grandmother wrestled with the officer and the girl was shot.

Now not only is it a tragedy that a young child was killed, but that officer has to live with that for the rest of thier lives. I don’t know what your occupation is, but I’m guessing it’s not having to make split second decisions concerning life and death on a daily/semi daily basis. Sometimes I think Israel has it right and everyone should have to serve a year or two whether it be in the armed forces, law enforcement, fire company, medic/emt.[/quote]

Guess, “shit happens” does not take away the fact that a seven year old was shot.

[quote]fireflyz wrote:
I’m not defending anything. I haven’t made a judgement yet as to what happened/who is to blame. Arguments can be made for both sides. I am curious as to why the father had three children in the house and allowed a murderer to stay there. The fuck I would ever let someone who shot a 17 year old boy to stay in my home with my children. Hopefully this video helps to clear things up as either a tragic accident or a serious/criminal? lapse in judgement. [/quote]

Well first of, the man in question is a suspect not charged, second I am sure you as well as most of us (and likely the father of the children) did not ask the man if he killed anyone before he came through the door.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]But Fieger said the video shows an officer lobbing the grenade and then shooting into the home from the porch.

“There is no question about what happened because it’s in the videotape,” Fieger said. “It’s not an accident. It’s not a mistake. There was no altercation.”

"Aiyana Jones was shot from outside on the porch. [/quote]

Uuuh, oops.

And people are still defending this bullshit?

Why?

Why do so many people still think people are lying about how many of these cops act?

It must be great being a non-minority.[/quote]

First off, I have been saying this, that the cops are crooked, since I was nine.

X, some non-minorities feel you.

I’ve seen cops shoot “suspects” that are my family in the street for various “threats”, I have had neighbors get their teeth kicked in by DEA agents for personal amounts of weed, I had my Great Dane killed because he was being aggressive when cops bum rushed my yard. None of these people were found guilty, all suspects, all non-violent, and if they were involved in ‘crime’ it was victimless.

I concur with you, this shit has to stop.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]samdan wrote:

[quote]and1bball4mk wrote:

[quote]samdan wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
EDIT: I believe the article said the weapon discharged while an officer was in a struggle with the GRANDMOTHER of the victim? Or am I wrong?

Very sad though about the little girl.

.greg.[/quote]

Think for a second about how an officer preparing for possible confrontation is going to hold a rifle. He’s going to hold it in front of him, across his body from shoulder to hip, muzzle pointing down. This prevents most accidental discharges from being harmful to anyone, however it puts the officer at a serious disadvantage when he’s involved in an altercation with someone who he cannot “tactically disarm” either via shooting or attacking.

I’m not going to say that the officers aren’t to blame for the death, but if the reason for the girl dying is that she was first hurt by a flashbang that had a VERY low chance of landing and STAYING right next to her on a couch, and then an accidental discharge while grandma is running at armed policemen and wrestling with them… That’s not what I’d call police brutality, it’s what I’d call a confluence of unfortunate circumstances. As far as police using flashbangs in an urban setting, it’s as simple as a reaction to increasingly violent offenders who are more than willing to kill a policeman without a second thought.

This isn’t the police’s fault (from the information provided in the article) any more than the murder suspect who first kills someone in front of a, presumably occupied, store while he’s walking with someone else, and then goes and hides in his family’s house. Yes, police brutality happens and it’s a serious thing, however I really hate the people who just immediately point all the fingers at the police when something bad happens. If there weren’t people out there committing horrible acts and harming completely innocent people, do you really think cops would sometimes be this brutal?[/quote]

No one is saying that this is police brutality, what we’re saying is that cops need to learn how to properly do their fucking jobs and correctly identify possible threats. [/quote]

So far I’ve seen no indication that the police identified ANYTHING improperly and that this is anything more than two accidents that came together. Show me the future article where someone intentionally shot the girl thinking she was a threat and you can have an apology. Until then, it sounds a lot like an accident due to grandma trying to wrestle an officer and the freak chance of a flashbang incident.[/quote]

Yep. Inner cities are hell. The people there in the city of Detroit graduate from high school at a rate of 25%. They then proceed to blame ‘whitey’ cause they can’t a job and proceed to deal drugs and murder each other. And then they have the temerity to blame the coppers who’re trying to ride herd on the whole thing.
[/quote]

It’s kind of hard to get a job when auto companies employee a good chunk of the population in Detroit and they won’t let you actually get a job.

[quote]JD430 wrote:

…wall of text…
suspect who is believed to have gunned down a 17 year old
…wall of text…[/quote]

Yes, looking for a 34 year old suspect = killing seven year old? Sorry, I do not support aggression. You cannot justify this, sorry.

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Why do we care about grown up black males killing each other? They’re doing what comes naturally to them and there is little that can be done to prevent what is genetic. Let nature run its course.

Perhaps the state should somehow try to forcibly adopt the seven year olds like australians were going to do with the aboriginals many moons ago.[/quote]

Are you really this stupid or just a troll?

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Sometimes I regret doing this, but I hope a few of you guys will take my perspective on this with some maturity as I have been a police officer for over 10 years and I am also assigned as a trainer in the tactics field and am a member of a SWAT team.

Of course, there is very little information to go on here. If any of you think you can make a reasonable assessment of what happened, you are wrong. Much more needs to be known. Perhaps it will turn out that some of you guys “guessed” correctly when the smoke clears, but right now you are talking out of your ass if your mind is completely made up about how this whole shitstorm went down.

That said, these are the observations I have at this point.

-This was not a drug raid. They were there looking for a 34 year old suspect who is believed to have gunned down a 17 year old on a sidewalk in front of his girlfriend. I have stated in a previous thread that the over-abundance of military-style raids with the intent of finding drugs, often small quantities of marijuana, in private homes, is troubling. This is a much different ballgame and I hope that nobody thinks the police were unjustified in being there. Explain that to me if you feel that way.

-Is there not some culpability on the part of the family for harboring this person in the home with a 7 year old girl?(I realize that they may have had no idea he was wanted for a brutal murder but my experience with these things has been that the family knows full well what is going on. Just a personal observation).

-With the above stated, I can’t really figure why the SWAT team did not do a little more recon on the house and the occupants. Without giving away “trade secrets”, there is a philosophical movement in the tactical community that puts priority on “surround and call out”. That means the SWAT team would set up a perimeter around the home that nobody would be able to penetrate and then start negotiating with whoever is inside to arrange a surrender. That does a number of things. Hopefully, that would have allowed them to discover that there was a 7 year old inside and arrangements could have been made to get her out ASAP. Like I said, I am not going to discuss those procedures in depth but there are times when a dynamic hit on the residence would be called for, even in the eyes of the most conservative team. Without knowing all of the circumstances on the ground at this incident, I can’t say for sure. There are also different SOP’s and training methods to deal with. Detroit might be one of those teams that is taught to always “go,go,go” and if so, that mindset will need to be examined. Personally, I think surround and call-out is very viable and the safest way to get innocent people out of harm’s way. Bad things happen when heavily armed guys rush a house, jacked up on adrenaline because they are looking for a suspected murderer. Pushing hard like that should generally be a last resort or saved for very extreme, specific incidents when time is of the essence or people will die for sure.

-Flashbangs are a very necessary part of our arsenal. They just should probably be used with the same conservative mindset I described above as they are very dangerous. If you pick one up or are standing next to it when it goes off, say goodbye to your hand or foot. They also can cause fires if you are not careful. I have seen SOP’s that don’t allow for the use of a noise flash diversion device if a very elderly or very young child is in the house. That is why recon and slowing the situation down as much as possible is very important…so you know those things.

-I don’t know how the fatal shot was fired. I saw that article above in which that attorney is claiming there is a video showing an officer tossing a flashbang through a window and then firing a shot immediately after. That really doesn’t make sense and I consider it unlikely, but who knows. It could have happened I guess and that guy will have a lot of explaining to do. Let’s instead consider the scenario of one of the guys making entry and getting in a fight with one of the occupants which lead to a round being discharged and the girl being struck. A couple of posters have implied or flat-out stated that a gun could not have been discharged accidentally during a scuffle. Bullshit. I have seen (and heard of) all types of situations leading to fingers or something else getting in a trigger guard and causing a gun to discharge. It can happen. Good selection, good training and good SOP’s can minimize the risk but not eliminate it entirely, especially when we are dealing with someone actively fighting with you. Maybe I can comment on that more precisely if I get more details about the way the shot was fired but it is tough to do so with the very sparse information I have now.

-This discussion should not proceed at all into the territory of race unless some information comes to light that shows bias directly impacted the tragedy that occurred. I don’t know a lot about Detroit’s SWAT team but I do know that they have a very high proportion of minority officers, for what it is worth.

-At the end of the day, my somewhat educated guess(and nothing more, mind you) is that this incident was probably a failure of tactics. It is almost always better to slow these things down.

On a personal note, nothing breaks my heart more than seeing kids wrapped up in the affairs of bad adults. It has almost brought me to tears on a number of occasions and that is not an easy thing at this point in my life. As far removed as I am from this incident, it is still affecting me in a way and I am torn up about this little girl. Its our job as cops to adjust, throttle back and do everything in our power to stop these things from happening.

I hope the community where this happened takes the same attitude and rejects the type of person who initiated this whole thing. [/quote]

Great post, there seems to be a lot of speculation going on in this thread. I do believe that often times the police are heavy handed in their responses, but not enough is known at this juncture to pass judgment.

Geoffery Fieger, the attorney in this case, is a grandstanding douche of colossal proportions. The only good I have seen from him is in defending Jack Kevorkian.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JD430 wrote:

…wall of text…
suspect who is believed to have gunned down a 17 year old
…wall of text…[/quote]

Yes, looking for a 34 year old suspect = killing seven year old? Sorry, I do not support aggression. You cannot justify this, sorry. [/quote]

Yep. Wall of text…

Oh…I see…it’s okay for Professor X and WWEAttitude to scream racism, cos it’s okay to assume all cops are white, and they all hate black people. Because in their experience, that’s what they have seen.

So, therefore, it’s okay for me to assume that all bkack people are thugs and criminals, who do nothing but destroy everything they touch and act like a bunch of crabs in a bucket, because that’s what I’ve seen, right?

Yet somehow, I bet they’ll say it’s not okay for me to say that, and start screaming racism. I don’t personally know either of you guys, but I’ve read a lot of X’s posts. I think you are an EXTREMELY intelligent guy, so I was surprised you said what you did above. I’m not going to apologize for whatever experience you may have had with other cops…I only know how I treat people.

Moving on, I thought JD430 had some very good points, and I agree that the forced entry option was not a wise choice of tactics in this case. I don’t think we would have done it that way where I am, either.

As for those of you claiming mistakes should never be made in a tactical environment…you are fools. Ask anyone on here who has ever been in a tactical or combat scenario…mistakes always get made. Something ALWAYS goes wrong. It may be small, or it may be huge, but there is no such thing as a perfect op when things go live. There are Special Operations guys on here, straight leg Infantry guys, etc, etc…they all will agree…something ALWAYS goes wrong in the real world.

Those of you who think it always goes perfectly have never gotten off the couch and done it, so it’s easy to criticize. I got news for you…being good at Call of Duty or Rainbow Six makes you nothing more than an armchair commando. If you really thought you could do things better than the people who do it in real life, then you would. The fact that you haven’t proves that you are incapable of it.