He was exercising poor trigger control anyway you look at it. Its not like he fired at the suspect and hit the little girl. He had his finger on the trigger with no target present. THAT IS A BIG NO NO!
[quote]samdan wrote:
[quote]and1bball4mk wrote:
[quote]samdan wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
EDIT: I believe the article said the weapon discharged while an officer was in a struggle with the GRANDMOTHER of the victim? Or am I wrong?
Very sad though about the little girl.
.greg.[/quote]
Think for a second about how an officer preparing for possible confrontation is going to hold a rifle. He’s going to hold it in front of him, across his body from shoulder to hip, muzzle pointing down. This prevents most accidental discharges from being harmful to anyone, however it puts the officer at a serious disadvantage when he’s involved in an altercation with someone who he cannot “tactically disarm” either via shooting or attacking.
I’m not going to say that the officers aren’t to blame for the death, but if the reason for the girl dying is that she was first hurt by a flashbang that had a VERY low chance of landing and STAYING right next to her on a couch, and then an accidental discharge while grandma is running at armed policemen and wrestling with them… That’s not what I’d call police brutality, it’s what I’d call a confluence of unfortunate circumstances. As far as police using flashbangs in an urban setting, it’s as simple as a reaction to increasingly violent offenders who are more than willing to kill a policeman without a second thought.
This isn’t the police’s fault (from the information provided in the article) any more than the murder suspect who first kills someone in front of a, presumably occupied, store while he’s walking with someone else, and then goes and hides in his family’s house. Yes, police brutality happens and it’s a serious thing, however I really hate the people who just immediately point all the fingers at the police when something bad happens. If there weren’t people out there committing horrible acts and harming completely innocent people, do you really think cops would sometimes be this brutal?[/quote]
No one is saying that this is police brutality, what we’re saying is that cops need to learn how to properly do their fucking jobs and correctly identify possible threats. [/quote]
So far I’ve seen no indication that the police identified ANYTHING improperly and that this is anything more than two accidents that came together. Show me the future article where someone intentionally shot the girl thinking she was a threat and you can have an apology. Until then, it sounds a lot like an accident due to grandma trying to wrestle an officer and the freak chance of a flashbang incident.[/quote]
If police did things “properly”, they obeyed all regulations, AND a little girl was both burned and shot, something must be wrong with the regulations.
Something really bad happened, either the individual officers or the system they operate in must necessarily be wrong.
[quote]Nerraw Siclar wrote:
He was exercising poor trigger control anyway you look at it. Its not like he fired at the suspect and hit the little girl. He had his finger on the trigger with no target present. THAT IS A BIG NO NO![/quote]
how do you know? It never said anything about that in the article. You’re just making assumptions.
.greg.
Average day in Detroit.
Although it appears it was a tactical unit of some sort that conducted the entry, that doesn’t necessarily indicate that the weapon involved was a rifle. Many SWAT operators use pistols only in a cramped, urban environment. Given that fact, and that the grandmother may have been wrestling with the officer, I can see where the possibility for a negligent discharge existed.
As usual, I see a lot of people jumping to conclusions about “poor trigger control”, etc. I’m going to throw a few assumptions back.
-
We don’t know the age of the grandmother who was wrestling with the officer. I know some grandmothers who are in their mid forties, and are pretty hefty women. Those of you who are going to say that any male should be able to take on any female have obviously never had to fight with a 300 to 400 pound woman. Remember…the officer is struggling to maintain possession of a firearm and to not injure the woman…not win the fight, as most people use the term.
-
How do we know that the grandmother’s finger didn’t press the trigger during the struggle? Is it not inconceivable that she got a finger or thumb wedged into the trigger guard, resulting in a negligent discharge?
-
One of you mentioned muzzle discipline. I ask you…any of you…to go try an experiment. Get an Air-Soft pistol. Set up the same scenario. See how successful you are at controlling the muscle of your pistol when you are fighting to maintain control of it. Most officers receive very limited training regarding weapon retention in a dynamic scenario. It’s not a major focus. I doubt many of you would fare any better.
Beyond that, I am very sorry for that family’s loss, and especially for that poor girl. I can only imagine the fear she must have felt when the flash-bang went off and started burning her. No child should have to experience that. I am also pretty surprised by the use of flash-bangs with children present.
4
^^another good post. well said
.greg.
[quote]
If police did things “properly”, they obeyed all regulations, AND a little girl was both burned and shot, something must be wrong with the regulations.
Something really bad happened, either the individual officers or the system they operate in must necessarily be wrong.[/quote]
I disagree. It’s easy to think that from the comfort of your arm chair. Even easier if you’ve never dealt with firearms or have never dealt with firearms while entering a room with someone the intel says is dangerous. (I’m not saying “you” in particular, but in general…I don’t know if you have that kind of experience or not) The training can be good…the system can be good…and shit still happens. I’m not saying that’s the case here. Some of the above posts did a very good job of highlighting some of the possibilities of how such a thing could occur and be a pure accident. Until there is an investigation and/or more information put out it will be impossible to say. I do get annoyed when people rush to judgement though. For all we know the grandmother wrestled with the officer and the girl was shot.
Now not only is it a tragedy that a young child was killed, but that officer has to live with that for the rest of thier lives. I don’t know what your occupation is, but I’m guessing it’s not having to make split second decisions concerning life and death on a daily/semi daily basis. Sometimes I think Israel has it right and everyone should have to serve a year or two whether it be in the armed forces, law enforcement, fire company, medic/emt.
How the fuck can anyone in their right mind defend this?
They fucking burned and shot a 7 year old girl to death, and forced her dad’s face down into her blood on the floor.
No one is allowed to make a mistake like that - no one! Fucking game over, no way can this be defended in any way. You are fucking out of your goddamned mind…
Fire that cop - immediately. This wasn’t a “tragic mistake” - it was a fuck-up of colossal proportions!!
Plus, looks like an independent video-tape shows the cops are full of shit about what actually happened anyway.
I’m not defending anything. I haven’t made a judgement yet as to what happened/who is to blame. Arguments can be made for both sides. I am curious as to why the father had three children in the house and allowed a murderer to stay there. The fuck I would ever let someone who shot a 17 year old boy to stay in my home with my children. Hopefully this video helps to clear things up as either a tragic accident or a serious/criminal? lapse in judgement.
[quote]fireflyz wrote:
[quote]
If police did things “properly”, they obeyed all regulations, AND a little girl was both burned and shot, something must be wrong with the regulations.
Something really bad happened, either the individual officers or the system they operate in must necessarily be wrong.[/quote]
I disagree. It’s easy to think that from the comfort of your arm chair. Even easier if you’ve never dealt with firearms or have never dealt with firearms while entering a room with someone the intel says is dangerous. (I’m not saying “you” in particular, but in general…I don’t know if you have that kind of experience or not) The training can be good…the system can be good…and shit still happens. I’m not saying that’s the case here. Some of the above posts did a very good job of highlighting some of the possibilities of how such a thing could occur and be a pure accident. Until there is an investigation and/or more information put out it will be impossible to say. I do get annoyed when people rush to judgement though. For all we know the grandmother wrestled with the officer and the girl was shot.
Now not only is it a tragedy that a young child was killed, but that officer has to live with that for the rest of thier lives. I don’t know what your occupation is, but I’m guessing it’s not having to make split second decisions concerning life and death on a daily/semi daily basis. Sometimes I think Israel has it right and everyone should have to serve a year or two whether it be in the armed forces, law enforcement, fire company, medic/emt.[/quote]
So, all those cops should be forced to become parents, so they know how their decisions affect families?
I donâ??t have to be a parent to say how wrong it is a kid got burned, shot, and killed.
I also donâ??t have to have forcibly entered and cleared a house to say cops are going too far.
By the same token, have you ever been in a house and had armed and drawn police forcibly enter?
Ever been sitting at your computer at night and suddenly had officers in your room pointing pistols and flashlights at you yelling orders?
I have experience from that perspective.
I can tell you my natural human instinct was to grab the pistol and direct it away from me. FORTUNATELY I was able to restrain a natural reflex that would have gotten me â??justifiablyâ?? killed though I hadnâ??t done anything wrong. Iâ??m sure I would have been an â??accidentalâ?? murder too.
Point being, if there is a system in place that allows situations to be created where innocents are killed, maimed, shot, burned, then the system is wrong.
My natural reaction to armed men kicking in my door is to run for my shotgun. The fact that they shout police when they do it is supposed to make it okay to shoot me for defending my home? If I ever rob your house Iâ??ll make sure to shout police when I enter so I can be sure you wonâ??t defend yourself.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
How the fuck can anyone in their right mind defend this?
They fucking burned and shot a 7 year old girl to death, and forced her dad’s face down into her blood on the floor.
No one is allowed to make a mistake like that - no one! Fucking game over, no way can this be defended in any way. You are fucking out of your goddamned mind…
Fire that cop - immediately. This wasn’t a “tragic mistake” - it was a fuck-up of colossal proportions!!
Plus, looks like an independent video-tape shows the cops are full of shit about what actually happened anyway.
Frankly, I’m shocked. I didn’t think an entire team of officers could conspire to cover up something. [sarcasm]
If that tape is real. Every single one of the officers in the raid should be tried as accessories to murder.
[quote]fireflyz wrote:
I’m not defending anything. I haven’t made a judgement yet as to what happened/who is to blame. Arguments can be made for both sides. I am curious as to why the father had three children in the house and allowed a murderer to stay there. The fuck I would ever let someone who shot a 17 year old boy to stay in my home with my children. Hopefully this video helps to clear things up as either a tragic accident or a serious/criminal? lapse in judgement. [/quote]
It’s not possible the guy didn’t know he was a murderer? Actually, unless he had participated in the crime, how the hell should he have known?
This is at the heart of what I find wrong with the system. Innocent individuals are stripped of rights by association.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]fireflyz wrote:
I’m not defending anything. I haven’t made a judgement yet as to what happened/who is to blame. Arguments can be made for both sides. I am curious as to why the father had three children in the house and allowed a murderer to stay there. The fuck I would ever let someone who shot a 17 year old boy to stay in my home with my children. Hopefully this video helps to clear things up as either a tragic accident or a serious/criminal? lapse in judgement. [/quote]
It’s not possible the guy didn’t know he was a murderer? Actually, unless he had participated in the crime, how the hell should he have known?
This is at the heart of what I find wrong with the system. Innocent individuals are stripped of rights by association. [/quote]
On top of that, since when does SUSPECT mean GUILTY?
It is fucking strange that people are actually defending this action.
[quote]But Fieger said the video shows an officer lobbing the grenade and then shooting into the home from the porch.
“There is no question about what happened because it’s in the videotape,” Fieger said. “It’s not an accident. It’s not a mistake. There was no altercation.”
"Aiyana Jones was shot from outside on the porch. [/quote]
Uuuh, oops.
And people are still defending this bullshit?
Why?
Why do so many people still think people are lying about how many of these cops act?
It must be great being a non-minority.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It must be great being a non-minority.[/quote]
It’s seriously pretty sick.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It must be great being a non-minority.[/quote]
The race card always has to get pulled at some point…
The only way I would “defend” what happened is if there was an actual altercation between the cop that fired and the grandmother or what not… accidental discharge isn’t uncommon.
If the girl was shot from the porch then thats a completely separate issue… I still don’t think they intentionally shot a 7 year old… but someone fucked up big time and should be punished.
I haven’t read through this thread yet, but I heard on the radio today that the shot was actually fired from outside of the residence and there’s video evidence of it. Also, I may have heard that there actually wasn’t any struggle. I was working when I heard it so that may not all be accurate.
[quote]samdan wrote:
[quote]and1bball4mk wrote:
[quote]samdan wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
EDIT: I believe the article said the weapon discharged while an officer was in a struggle with the GRANDMOTHER of the victim? Or am I wrong?
Very sad though about the little girl.
.greg.[/quote]
Think for a second about how an officer preparing for possible confrontation is going to hold a rifle. He’s going to hold it in front of him, across his body from shoulder to hip, muzzle pointing down. This prevents most accidental discharges from being harmful to anyone, however it puts the officer at a serious disadvantage when he’s involved in an altercation with someone who he cannot “tactically disarm” either via shooting or attacking.
I’m not going to say that the officers aren’t to blame for the death, but if the reason for the girl dying is that she was first hurt by a flashbang that had a VERY low chance of landing and STAYING right next to her on a couch, and then an accidental discharge while grandma is running at armed policemen and wrestling with them… That’s not what I’d call police brutality, it’s what I’d call a confluence of unfortunate circumstances. As far as police using flashbangs in an urban setting, it’s as simple as a reaction to increasingly violent offenders who are more than willing to kill a policeman without a second thought.
This isn’t the police’s fault (from the information provided in the article) any more than the murder suspect who first kills someone in front of a, presumably occupied, store while he’s walking with someone else, and then goes and hides in his family’s house. Yes, police brutality happens and it’s a serious thing, however I really hate the people who just immediately point all the fingers at the police when something bad happens. If there weren’t people out there committing horrible acts and harming completely innocent people, do you really think cops would sometimes be this brutal?[/quote]
No one is saying that this is police brutality, what we’re saying is that cops need to learn how to properly do their fucking jobs and correctly identify possible threats. [/quote]
So far I’ve seen no indication that the police identified ANYTHING improperly and that this is anything more than two accidents that came together. Show me the future article where someone intentionally shot the girl thinking she was a threat and you can have an apology. Until then, it sounds a lot like an accident due to grandma trying to wrestle an officer and the freak chance of a flashbang incident.[/quote]
Yep. Inner cities are hell. The people there in the city of Detroit graduate from high school at a rate of 25%. They then proceed to blame ‘whitey’ cause they can’t a job and proceed to deal drugs and murder each other. And then they have the temerity to blame the coppers who’re trying to ride herd on the whole thing.
This was RACISM pure and simple. I realized that immediately as soon as I read the headline and saw that this happened in Detroit. Detroit is full of racist pigs. Somehow I doubt the cops would’ve had this sort of indiscretion if they were dealing with a typical white family in the suburbs, but no cuz we’re dealing with uncivilized blacks living in the ghetto it should be alright? The fact that there were newspapers reporting the neighbours telling the cops about toys in the front yard, indicating the presence of children just proves that they wanted to power trip and humiliate this family.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]But Fieger said the video shows an officer lobbing the grenade and then shooting into the home from the porch.
“There is no question about what happened because it’s in the videotape,” Fieger said. “It’s not an accident. It’s not a mistake. There was no altercation.”
"Aiyana Jones was shot from outside on the porch. [/quote]
Uuuh, oops.
And people are still defending this bullshit?
Why?
Why do so many people still think people are lying about how many of these cops act?[/quote]
What you saw written was posted prior to this new allegation that the cops shot from outside of the house. If that’s the case than obviously the cop was clearly wrong and should not only be fired, but should be charged.
Don’t act like you weren’t jumping to conclusions just because you waited a couple more hours to post - what I (and a few others) wrote did not jump to any conclusions but stated that IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED UNTIL MORE DETAILS ARE REVEALED.
You so silly. Stop trying to get a reaction.