5 YO Male Gymnast. with Elite Genetics

[quote]Feist wrote:
When people rail against kids pushed at an early age – like those who start karate or violin at 3 years old and practice 3 hours a day – I always think, “But, for that kid, you don’t know.” A lot depends on how it is approached – it can be done wickedly or lovingly. Some kids are happy – for them it’s play, and as natural as breathing.

This kid was unreal – UNREAL – physically, but something about the combo of the dad’s (I presume) voice in the background, the music, the constant taping and, yes, the mugging and screaming he did after everything just turned my stomach. Literally blunted my appetite. Granted I’m seeing this vid w/o much context, and don’t see the kid in his daily life, but what I saw didn’t give me a good vibe. I’m all for not bringing your kids up on Cheetos and Barney – pop has a point when he says, “It’s not wrong what we do, because I did the same things [when] I was a little boy and I am healthy and strong” – but I wonder if the kids ever just gets to play, to be around other kids normally or to be around adults w/o being on display.

That’s my take, anyway, after just seeing the vid and reading the brief article. [/quote]

I seriously think we in the western world have a slightly distorted view point of these things. Being pushed to achieve things is not abuse. A lot of kids hate going to school, hate doing math, hate playing the piano hate doing a lot of things that we force them to do. It just so happens we don’t care about that because it fits into a picture perfect idea of normalcy. The kid on the other hand seems to be enjoying what he’s doing – the assumptions that he’s locked in the house and doesn’t get to play is just an assumption. If it is true that his parents are taking it too far, then it is obviously wrong, but I don’t think the training alone is a cause for concern.

This kid looks like he’s having a great time. And it’s a video of a complilation of clips. That would explain the ‘constant videotaping’.

The huge majority of best athletes in the world have been playing sports every day of their lives since they were able to. It’s very obvious this kid is not an average 5 year old. Did it ever occur that maybe this is exactly what he wants to be doing with his time. There are other kids in the some of the videos. He has other contact with kids his age. But there’s no chance he’ll find other kids his age who can do what he can do. Live and let live.

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Feist wrote:
When people rail against kids pushed at an early age – like those who start karate or violin at 3 years old and practice 3 hours a day – I always think, “But, for that kid, you don’t know.” A lot depends on how it is approached – it can be done wickedly or lovingly. Some kids are happy – for them it’s play, and as natural as breathing.

This kid was unreal – UNREAL – physically, but something about the combo of the dad’s (I presume) voice in the background, the music, the constant taping and, yes, the mugging and screaming he did after everything just turned my stomach. Literally blunted my appetite. Granted I’m seeing this vid w/o much context, and don’t see the kid in his daily life, but what I saw didn’t give me a good vibe. I’m all for not bringing your kids up on Cheetos and Barney – pop has a point when he says, “It’s not wrong what we do, because I did the same things [when] I was a little boy and I am healthy and strong” – but I wonder if the kids ever just gets to play, to be around other kids normally or to be around adults w/o being on display.

That’s my take, anyway, after just seeing the vid and reading the brief article.

I seriously think we in the western world have a slightly distorted view point of these things. Being pushed to achieve things is not abuse. A lot of kids hate going to school, hate doing math, hate playing the piano hate doing a lot of things that we force them to do. It just so happens we don’t care about that because it fits into a picture perfect idea of normalcy. The kid on the other hand seems to be enjoying what he’s doing – the assumptions that he’s locked in the house and doesn’t get to play is just an assumption. If it is true that his parents are taking it too far, then it is obviously wrong, but I don’t think the training alone is a cause for concern.[/quote]

The training alone isn’t the cause of my concern, but certain other things in the vid combined to give me a bad vibe. The kid doesn’t look like he’s enjoying himself when he goes into the obviously scripted flex-‘n’-scream after every stunt. I think that a lot of the things parents force kids to do that “fit into the picture perfect idea of normalcy” are abuse – or at least bad parenting. But I don’t think that having your kid play the piano – or work bodyweight drills and gymnastics – or sit and work advanced mathematics with pop – two or three hours every single day in itself is abusive. I think it can be beautiful, if approached in the right way. I don’t think “the right way” is the same for every kid or family. I don’t pretend to know what the right way is for every kid or family. However, I think that parents that push their kids in this way don’t always honestly have the kids’ best interests at heart, or always consider their full development as people.

Before someone else points it out, I think that this kid is likely better off than the millions of fatass kids being raised by TV, MySpace, and Xbox or else by deadbeat dads and crack-smokin’ mommas. Yes, I acknowledge that our society has a lot more to worry about from them than from one kid who’s parents might or might not be exploiting him as a gym-monkey. No, I don’t think the authorities should beat down the door and take him from his parents. And, like I said, I’ve only seen this one vid – not enough for a judgment – but the above is my gut reaction to it.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
This kid looks like he’s having a great time. And it’s a video of a complilation of clips. That would explain the ‘constant videotaping’.

The huge majority of best athletes in the world have been playing sports every day of their lives since they were able to. It’s very obvious this kid is not an average 5 year old. Did it ever occur that maybe this is exactly what he wants to be doing with his time. There are other kids in the some of the videos. He has other contact with kids his age. But there’s no chance he’ll find other kids his age who can do what he can do. Live and let live. [/quote]

People see what they wanna see man…

You and I see a kid who looks like he’s having fun and maybe even, for myself at least, wish we had been pushed to do something at a young age (my dad didn’t get my into any sports, anything at all actually as a child - and I’ve always wished he had).

Other people like Feist see something that “turns their stomach” and looks like its abuse.

[quote]josh86 wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
This kid looks like he’s having a great time. And it’s a video of a complilation of clips. That would explain the ‘constant videotaping’.

The huge majority of best athletes in the world have been playing sports every day of their lives since they were able to. It’s very obvious this kid is not an average 5 year old. Did it ever occur that maybe this is exactly what he wants to be doing with his time. There are other kids in the some of the videos. He has other contact with kids his age. But there’s no chance he’ll find other kids his age who can do what he can do. Live and let live.

People see what they wanna see man…

You and I see a kid who looks like he’s having fun and maybe even, for myself at least, wish we had been pushed to do something at a young age (my dad didn’t get my into any sports, anything at all actually as a child - and I’ve always wished he had).

Other people like Feist see something that “turns their stomach” and looks like its abuse. [/quote]

If you re-read my posts, you’ll see there’s a pretty fair amount of “live and let live” in there. I don’t pretend to know what’s right for the kid – certainly, it’d be a shame not to nurture his extraordinary talent. I also don’t say that pushing a kid/making him do something hard constitutes abuse. If I could do what this kid does – then or now – I’d think it was the coolest thing ever. Some things about the vid rubbed me the wrong way. I said what they were (not the training in itself), and also acknowledged that that was just my impression from watching a short vid for the first time on the interwebz. I might feel different if I watched the vid again. I might feel completely different if I met the kid/fam in person. I might not.

I work with kids whose parents push them hard. Some of them are among the happiest kids I’ve met. A lot of them ARE doing exactly what they want to be doing with their time. I also work with kids whose parents let them do whatever they want and let them drop out of something at the first sign of difficulty. A lot of these kids are miserable shits (and no fun to work with). I also see “pushed” kids who are miserable, and whose helicopter-parents (always hovering over them) suck any potential joy out of their lives.

Look, Dick Grayson grew up in a circus family – I’m sure he was training trapeze in one form or another since the age of two – and he always seemed like a well-adjusted guy to me. Good sense of humor and all that. Jason Todd got into the same eventual line of work, undertaking similar training with the same employer, but things didn’t turn out so well for him. It’s not just what you do, but how you approach it.

Don’t assume you know too much about “people like me” and I won’t make assumptions about how you’re compensating for your slacker pop (which I’m not assuming).

I think children should be allowed to choose their own path. I don’t think a kid that young can know what he likes or doesn’t like. Factor in the parental approval and the natural inclination for a child to want that, and you have potentially a bad combination. I know I’m speaking in generalities. This kid might live eat and drink gymnastics.

Something tells me dad was a gymnast. So I ask you, what choice did this kid have? I’m not sure I have an objection to “pushing” someone to succeed or excel. I don’t want to get caught up in semantics but “push” does not have a positive connotation. Encourage and nurture in my mind would be more ideal. Support, direction, providing the means to explore interests, encouraging excellence…but “push”. 3 hour practices? Sure, okay, I get kids can spend their time on less productive things but where is the balance when a child that age is practicing 3 hours a day?

Would you have wanted your own father to decide at age 5 what it was you were going to do with your near and far future? Who here believes completely that this 5 year old is doing this of his own volition? And remember the power of parental approval that kids seek. No one is suspicious of the fact that the father apparently has some background in gymnastics?

So can you be confident the kid truly enjoys this? What if this kid has a great physics or science or medical mind? Will he ever find out? What if he is a musical genius? Will he ever know? I’m not saying it’s right or wrong - I simply do not have the facts. I’m just wondering is all…

he would be much better off sitting on his ass playing video games, eating shit, and leading a completely undisciplined life like almost every other kid his age amirite?

as far as i can see, as long as he is not harming his joints, then fuck yo couch.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I think children should be allowed to choose their own path. I don’t think a kid that young can know what he likes or doesn’t like. Factor in the parental approval and the natural inclination for a child to want that, and you have potentially a bad combination. I know I’m speaking in generalities. This kid might live eat and drink gymnastics. Something tells me dad was a gymnast. So I ask you, what choice did this kid have? I’m not sure I have an objection to “pushing” someone to succeed or excel. I don’t want to get caught up in semantics but “push” does not have a positive connotation. Encourage and nurture in my mind would be more ideal. Support, direction, providing the means to explore interests, encouraging excellence…but “push”. 3 hour practices? Sure, okay, I get kids can spend their time on less productive things but where is the balance when a child that age is practicing 3 hours a day? Would you have wanted your own father to decide at age 5 what it was you were going to do with your near and far future? Who here believes completely that this 5 year old is doing this of his own volition? And remember the power of parental approval that kids seek. No one is suspicious of the fact that the father apparently has some background in gymnastics? So can you be confident the kid truly enjoys this? What if this kid has a great physics or science or medical mind? Will he ever find out? What if he is a musical genius? Will he ever know? I’m not saying it’s right or wrong - I simply do not have the facts. I’m just wondering is all…[/quote]

Look at the smile on the kid’s face. This kid absolutely loves what he’s doing. He see’s it as a challenge every single day.

And yes, his dad is a gymnast. He said so in the video.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
I think children should be allowed to choose their own path. I don’t think a kid that young can know what he likes or doesn’t like. Factor in the parental approval and the natural inclination for a child to want that, and you have potentially a bad combination. I know I’m speaking in generalities.

This kid might live eat and drink gymnastics. Something tells me dad was a gymnast. So I ask you, what choice did this kid have? I’m not sure I have an objection to “pushing” someone to succeed or excel. I don’t want to get caught up in semantics but “push” does not have a positive connotation.

Encourage and nurture in my mind would be more ideal. Support, direction, providing the means to explore interests, encouraging excellence…but “push”. 3 hour practices? Sure, okay, I get kids can spend their time on less productive things but where is the balance when a child that age is practicing 3 hours a day?

Would you have wanted your own father to decide at age 5 what it was you were going to do with your near and far future? Who here believes completely that this 5 year old is doing this of his own volition? And remember the power of parental approval that kids seek.

No one is suspicious of the fact that the father apparently has some background in gymnastics? So can you be confident the kid truly enjoys this? What if this kid has a great physics or science or medical mind? Will he ever find out? What if he is a musical genius? Will he ever know? I’m not saying it’s right or wrong - I simply do not have the facts. I’m just wondering is all…

Look at the smile on the kid’s face. This kid absolutely loves what he’s doing. He see’s it as a challenge every single day.

And yes, his dad is a gymnast. He said so in the video. [/quote]

Loves what he is doing or loves pleasing his dad and receiving his approval? Do you have a small son around that age or have you? Mine will be 4 in Jan. At that age, they live for your attention and approval.

And you do realize, those videos are snippets - they are not recording each day of his 3 hour training sessions. Are you naive enough to believe that he carries that expression, everyday, during each hour of training? The kid is 5 my man.

When you do something in pursuit of excellence, or just making a living, you’re not smiling the entire time. That’s life. But do you think such a burden should be placed upon a 5 year old?

Anyway, I’m just wondering, I have no answers and no vested interest here. I could care less. Amazing video, amazing skills. And the typical spectrum of reactions from our membership.

My response had another 15 lines. I hit submit by accident then went back to edit it. I don’t feel like typing it out again.

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:

I seriously think we in the western world have a slightly distorted view point of these things. Being pushed to achieve things is not abuse. A lot of kids hate going to school, hate doing math, hate playing the piano hate doing a lot of things that we force them to do. It just so happens we don’t care about that because it fits into a picture perfect idea of normalcy. [/quote]

But not at 5 years old. Kids aren’t pushed to excel at math in school before kindergarten. And my daughter, in kindergarten now, loves it, and has learned a lot. Same with her gymnastics. It’s learned in a fun way.

If we’re using Richard Sandrak as an example, once puberty hits, kids like this won’t be miles ahead of their peers. The only kids they’ll have an advantage over are the fat lazy kids whose parents let them eat horribly and never exercised. They’ll be physically right on track with the kids who grew up physically and psychologically healthy.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
anyone besides me wondering if this kid is going to have a normal life? amazing yes. healthy? not sure.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
I think children should be allowed to choose their own path. I don’t think a kid that young can know what he likes or doesn’t like. Factor in the parental approval and the natural inclination for a child to want that, and you have potentially a bad combination. I know I’m speaking in generalities.

This kid might live eat and drink gymnastics. Something tells me dad was a gymnast. So I ask you, what choice did this kid have? I’m not sure I have an objection to “pushing” someone to succeed or excel. I don’t want to get caught up in semantics but “push” does not have a positive connotation.

Encourage and nurture in my mind would be more ideal. Support, direction, providing the means to explore interests, encouraging excellence…but “push”. 3 hour practices? Sure, okay, I get kids can spend their time on less productive things but where is the balance when a child that age is practicing 3 hours a day?

Would you have wanted your own father to decide at age 5 what it was you were going to do with your near and far future? Who here believes completely that this 5 year old is doing this of his own volition? And remember the power of parental approval that kids seek.

No one is suspicious of the fact that the father apparently has some background in gymnastics? So can you be confident the kid truly enjoys this? What if this kid has a great physics or science or medical mind? Will he ever find out? What if he is a musical genius? Will he ever know? I’m not saying it’s right or wrong - I simply do not have the facts. I’m just wondering is all…

Look at the smile on the kid’s face. This kid absolutely loves what he’s doing. He see’s it as a challenge every single day.

And yes, his dad is a gymnast. He said so in the video.

Loves what he is doing or loves pleasing his dad and receiving his approval? Do you have a small son around that age or have you? Mine will be 4 in Jan. At that age, they live for your attention and approval.

And you do realize, those videos are snippets - they are not recording each day of his 3 hour training sessions. Are you naive enough to believe that he carries that expression, everyday, during each hour of training? The kid is 5 my man.

When you do something in pursuit of excellence, or just making a living, you’re not smiling the entire time. That’s life. But do you think such a burden should be placed upon a 5 year old?

Anyway, I’m just wondering, I have no answers and no vested interest here. I could care less. Amazing video, amazing skills. And the typical spectrum of reactions from our membership.[/quote]

Honestly I HIGHLY doubt that he will regret anything when older. Not many people have that kids genes and I’m sure he will be glad to exploit them and will thank his dad for discovering his potential from a young age. He will probably grow up to be a confident and healthy adult, what more can a parent do for his kid??

I watched the vid again. I figured out what 0:50-0:59 remind me of: The bat-boy of tabloid fame. I still think those 9 seconds are friggin’ scary, and they colored my perception of what followed.

I looked, but I did not see the kid smile much.

I don’t think the training is in itself bad. I don’t know enough about this kid’s life to say that his parents are screwing him up, but I’m not ready to award Pop Father of the Year by default for making his kid work out and putting him on TV. Kid has extraordinary physical gifts, and family has a tradition of putting those to use. That should be taken into account.

Beyond that, I really see only two directions for this thread to go:

  1. a discussion of parenting philosophies
  2. internet douchebaggery: each side painting the other into a ridiculous corner, such as
    a) You are obviously a spineless, permissive parent who would let his kids be sodomized by their friends and subsist on crack and Fruit Loops if that is what they felt called to.
    b) You are obviously fascist scum who would, if given half a chance, enslave his progeny and treat them like cattle in order to vicariously pursue his own frustrated concept of masculinity.

Maybe I’m overlooking something, though. I do appreciate that people on both sides made heartfelt points.

Have fun.

It’s hard to say if what the kid is doing is extraordinary, or if many other kids, if pushed, would be able to accomplish simmilar feats.
Assuming he is being pushed, that is.

I’m not sure there are many kids being pushed this way physically, and aren’t getting incredible results. And given that the father is a gymnast himself, he probably knows how to push the kid to perform well, more so than most other parents.

So, does anyone think some other, average kid, who started at the same age this kid did, would get simmilar results, if trained the same way?

[quote]ronaldo7 wrote:

Honestly I HIGHLY doubt that he will regret anything when older. Not many people have that kids genes and I’m sure he will be glad to exploit them and will thank his dad for discovering his potential from a young age. He will probably grow up to be a confident and healthy adult, what more can a parent do for his kid?? [/quote]

yup. worked out real good for michael jackson et als.

[quote]SWR wrote:
It’s hard to say if what the kid is doing is extraordinary, or if many other kids, if pushed, would be able to accomplish simmilar feats.
Assuming he is being pushed, that is.

I’m not sure there are many kids being pushed this way physically, and aren’t getting incredible results. And given that the father is a gymnast himself, he probably knows how to push the kid to perform well, more so than most other parents.

So, does anyone think some other, average kid, who started at the same age this kid did, would get simmilar results, if trained the same way?[/quote]

I know one thing from playing sport at a high level. I’ve seen parents that played push their kids from a young age and some of them were miserable teenagers playing and going thru the motions to please mom and dad.

And personally, I came from a background where the parents didn’t give a fuck about sport, yet I had a hunger and chip on my shoulder to excel that you cannot teach. When it matters, when they are older, when they compete, it matters what is in your heart - the passion, the desire to be the best.

It was quite simply what made Michael Jordan and other outliers what they were. MJ was not the best jump shooter, ball handler, leaper, defensive player etc in the league but he did do all well. What made MJ what he was was a bottomless well of desire and passion to fucking kill you on the court and not allow anyone to be better.

I’ve seen lots of kids come out the gate fast - they may have had more of an organized background in sport, they may have matured faster, etc. But eventually, everyone catches up and that is when genetics meet desire/passion and the true separation begins. But yes, this thread is degenerating into two camps.

And it’s pretty meaningless because it’s nothing more than personal views and some “wish it were me”. However, opinions are pretty meaningless when compared to hard data. And that data says that kids that succeed overwhelmingly come from college educated parents, who are married, have adequate income and stimulate their children to pursue what makes them curious - whether that be sport, math, music, etc.

The older I get, the less I feel I know - unlike some of you, that’s for sure. But one thing that I have taken a long time to learn is that none of this means much of anything if you’re not doing something you love. And about 95% of our workforce is stuck doing something they do not love. Life is too short.

I think a kid should be stimulated to choose, to explore, to be taught and guided to have passion to pursue something - but the kid should choose, on his own accord. Doesn’t anyone find it just a wee bit convenient that the father has a gymnastic background?

I mean if the parents had no such background and it was discovered the kid had a genuine passion for tumbling, training, etc., well then that’s a different discussion and it would differ in no manner from the kid who at a young age showed a gift for math and was encouraged and allowed to pursue it. It is intellectually dishonest to retort with something so simplistic as stating that it’s better than the kid being camped in front of the tv eating cheerios. Of course, anything is better than that.

When it’s all said and done and you look back on your life or half your life for that matter, you will regret not finding a passion and doing it. I say allow a kid to find his passion. Encourage him to find it. Don’t choose it for him.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
SWR wrote:
It’s hard to say if what the kid is doing is extraordinary, or if many other kids, if pushed, would be able to accomplish simmilar feats.
Assuming he is being pushed, that is.

I’m not sure there are many kids being pushed this way physically, and aren’t getting incredible results. And given that the father is a gymnast himself, he probably knows how to push the kid to perform well, more so than most other parents.

So, does anyone think some other, average kid, who started at the same age this kid did, would get simmilar results, if trained the same way?

I know one thing from playing sport at a high level. I’ve seen parents that played push their kids from a young age and some of them were miserable teenagers playing and going thru the motions to please mom and dad.

And personally, I came from a background where the parents didn’t give a fuck about sport, yet I had a hunger and chip on my shoulder to excel that you cannot teach. When it matters, when they are older, when they compete, it matters what is in your heart - the passion, the desire to be the best.

It was quite simply what made Michael Jordan and other outliers what they were. MJ was not the best jump shooter, ball handler, leaper, defensive player etc in the league but he did do all well. What made MJ what he was was a bottomless well of desire and passion to fucking kill you on the court and not allow anyone to be better.

I’ve seen lots of kids come out the gate fast - they may have had more of an organized background in sport, they may have matured faster, etc. But eventually, everyone catches up and that is when genetics meet desire/passion and the true separation begins. But yes, this thread is degenerating into two camps.

And it’s pretty meaningless because it’s nothing more than personal views and some “wish it were me”. However, opinions are pretty meaningless when compared to hard data. And that data says that kids that succeed overwhelmingly come from college educated parents, who are married, have adequate income and stimulate their children to pursue what makes them curious - whether that be sport, math, music, etc.

The older I get, the less I feel I know - unlike some of you, that’s for sure. But one thing that I have taken a long time to learn is that none of this means much of anything if you’re not doing something you love. And about 95% of our workforce is stuck doing something they do not love. Life is too short.

I think a kid should be stimulated to choose, to explore, to be taught and guided to have passion to pursue something - but the kid should choose, on his own accord. Doesn’t anyone find it just a wee bit convenient that the father has a gymnastic background?

I mean if the parents had no such background and it was discovered the kid had a genuine passion for tumbling, training, etc., well then that’s a different discussion and it would differ in no manner from the kid who at a young age showed a gift for math and was encouraged and allowed to pursue it. It is intellectually dishonest to retort with something so simplistic as stating that it’s better than the kid being camped in front of the tv eating cheerios. Of course, anything is better than that.

When it’s all said and done and you look back on your life or half your life for that matter, you will regret not finding a passion and doing it. I say allow a kid to find his passion. Encourage him to find it. Don’t choose it for him.

[/quote]
And how do you know if he likes doing it or not? Lets stop being silly by playing the “if” game, the FACT is that he is a talented human being. Good luck to him.

I’m out.

This kid is gonna have an amazing life I think. No matter what, if you are extremely talented at something from such a young age it has to do wonders for self-confidence. He has the genetics and the will to train hard, you can’t compare it to other parents who push their kids (who don’t really have any talent at all) in a similar way. Fuck all this “he’s gonna have issues” non-sense.

There are plenty of insecure prodigies. This isn’t to say that you should not develop a prodigious talent, but that there’s more than that that goes into growing up all-around healthy.

How much autonomy vs. structure you should give a young child (and how and when to apply it) is an interesting debate. I think several of the people posting in this thread aren’t ready for it.

We are playing the “if” game (speculating) a lot. For the record, 2-3 hours is just a number I threw out there. I don’t know how much this kid practices, but I imagine it’s a fair amount.

Re. a previous post, I don’t think anyone (except maybe the person who mentioned the ADHD kid) is disputing that this kid’s talented. And I’m pretty sure everyone would wish him a happy (w/o “issues”) life.

[quote]power_bulker wrote:
This kid is gonna have an amazing life I think. No matter what, if you are extremely talented at something from such a young age it has to do wonders for self-confidence. He has the genetics and the will to train hard, you can’t compare it to other parents who push their kids (who don’t really have any talent at all) in a similar way. Fuck all this “he’s gonna have issues” non-sense. [/quote]