Simple cause and effect. 10 days after start he felt better. Yes he still had his natural t back then, but the cypionate couldnt have built up for 10 days no way for that. So his levels then were 100 percent lower than now.
At the lower levels he felt better. On the higher levels now he feels worse. As simple as that
Every thing is over range, sigh. Not all of us are abusing TRT.
Some small percentage of guys can need such numbers but here we see zero indication for that just the opposite
What defines TRT abuse? Is this an accusation towards me? Should I lower my dose for my symptoms to return so that I can provide you with numbers that make you feel more comfortable? A total of 1100 that was considered normal range just a few short years ago is abuse?
Could you be any more ignorant on this subject?
By all means stick with the numbers that keep getting lowered each year and claim your have āperfect numbersā if thatās what makes you feel better. Iāll stick with the science and ensuring symptom resolution.
@vonko1988 you are the lord king of assumptions.
I wish you could realize from what position Iām looking at your posts and shaking my head. You canāt assess cause and effect in ten days on TRT. You canāt. Virtually every noobtin this place realizes this ready except for you. This is why it has taken you so long with your own protocol. This is why youāve made dozens of changes. This is why everyone lost interest in your claims.
The strategies work for a reason. If you choose to ignore them, knock yourself out, but donāt make claims like this for others to read and have them mess up their own protocols.
Very soon I will add more evidence to the claim that I can assess if a protocol will work for me in 10 days. But ok, this is me and my organism and Im mot extrapolating that to everyone. Like you are extrapolating that everyone needs to wait 8 weeks.
So wha makes you think this guy needs 1700 total t to feel optimal when he was feeling better at less? Isnt that an assumption as well?
Yes, we know some guys need 1700 and even more and in their cases this is not abuse. We know the ranges are crap ok. And here is a second question. What percentage of the guys is that?
I think you should re-read my initial statement. I stated that the possibility shouldnāt be ruled out. You are already making assumptions based on zero demonstrable evidence. This is where we differ.
I state to wait 6-8 weeks not by opinion from something I pulled out of my ass. I base off the science demonstrated by the pharmacokinetics of testosterone administration, calculating half life, time required to hit target values, and time for these levels to exert an effect. This CANNOT be achieved in ten days. You are defying science. What you are stating is demonstrable nonsense. You might as well be telling me that you can breathe underwater and that I shouldnāt assume other men canāt do this as well.
Just look at your contradictions:
āSo wha makes you think this guy needs 1700ā
Followed by āYes, we know some guys need 1700ā
Its directed to most on here. 90% of members seem to want to justify having levels over range. It will come back to hurt you with future health issues. I feel great after a bottle of wine, doesnt mean I drink one every day. You are meant to feel normal, not super human.
Please provide your evidence in the medical literature that slightly over range testosterone use causes health issues.
Also please demonstrate the evidence that people at the high end of normal today are safe, but once they lower the ranges again those who then become considered over range are suddenly at risk for health issues.
I will wait patiently for this evidence.
What is normal? Normal is having no symptoms. If a man needs 1700 to have no symptoms, is he normal?
Was 1100 normal just a few years ago? 1100 was the absolute top of the range that maybe 2% of men hit naturally and they were most likely in their early 20ās. Test levels have no doubt come down over the years but I havenāt seen any literature to show men were walking around with TT of 1500 20, 30 or even 50 years ago. More likely if average TT is mid 500ās now it might have been 700 in the past. You will always have the 1-2% at the extreme levels but everyone was not walking around with TT of 1100. Test levels naturally decrease as we age. It has never been ānaturalā for guys 50+ to have test levels of 1100 as far as I know. Not saying there is anything wrong with it. TRT is fairly new. I havenāt seen any studies of long term, 30 years, of guys running test levels at 1000+.
Here is what you call a nonsense study.
āThe researchers found that in men, endogenous testosterone was associated with a higher risk of [blood clots and heart failure, but not heart attack. In the validation study, endogenous testosterone was also associated with a higher risk of heart attack.ā
Correlation does not prove causation. How to interpret studies 101.
Meanwhile in every study where they raised testosterone in men (using actual interventional studies) it only provided benefits as an outcome.
Yep, just read the bits you want to hear and find arguments to disregard what you dont want to hear. Good Luck.
In the early 2000s, the high end of normal was 1596. Itās now in the mid 700s. They will continue to reassess a population of sick people over time and these ranges will continue to drop making everyone here considered supraphysiological in no time.
You are mostly right, but you miss one thing: You cannot compare natural levels to levels on TRT.
To put it simple - if you had naturally 1000 as a 20 years old person and felt perfectly on TRT you may need 1200-1300 to achieve that same effect.
The methodology of action of the endogenous production is totally different and TRT can never mimic that
Do you have any idea how many association studies are out there?
Perhaps do some reading up as to the legitimacy of an association study versus an actual interventional study. Look into the differences between in vitro studies and in vivo studies. You have some catching up to do on this subject. I can make an association study based on virtually any bias I want. Problem is, correlation does not prove causation!
Is a 50 year old supposed to feel like a 20 year old ānaturallyā? Donāt get me wrong. I am all for it. If it makes you feel great go for it. Hell, I donāt care if people take 5g+ a week. Do what makes you happy. But claiming it is ānaturalā and TRT is a stretch, IMO.
Why does he need to feel like a 20 year old? That is not the goal.
Good sleep, normal libido, lack of brain fog, decent energy levels, reduced pain, etc. Does he have to be a 20 year old to have this?? This is normal. This is optimized.
Iām new at this and still trying to figure it out and willing to learn but I still have not seen one piece of literature that says 1000 endogenous does not equal 1000 exogenous. Test cyp is supposed to be biologically identical so to me it seems logical that 1000 equals 1000.
You canāt compare the two.