[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Update:
Just finished my first week of my 5th cycle and I’m STILL hitting 12 reps on bench and DL, and 11 on OHP and Squat. I don’t think this is standard, but oh well. It’s great progress for me. [/quote]
LoL… I wouldn’t complain! That’s great progress, meaning in 5 months, you’ve added 25 pounds to your bench and OHP, and 50 pounds to your squat and deadlift. You’re certainly getting stronger
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Update:
Just finished my first week of my 5th cycle and I’m STILL hitting 12 reps on bench and DL, and 11 on OHP and Squat. I don’t think this is standard, but oh well. It’s great progress for me. [/quote]
You are complaining that you are getting stronger? Is this what I’m reading?
[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Update:
Just finished my first week of my 5th cycle and I’m STILL hitting 12 reps on bench and DL, and 11 on OHP and Squat. I don’t think this is standard, but oh well. It’s great progress for me. [/quote]
You are complaining that you are getting stronger? Is this what I’m reading? [/quote]
Where was I complaining? I’m thrilled!
Oh, and as always thank you for the inspiration and solid program.
Update: just finished first week of my 7th cycle.
I hit 11 on OHP, 15 on box squat, 10 on bench. The weights have “not caught up with me” at this point, so I’m taking the rest of this cycle to reevaluate, by doing some heavy triples and doubles to see where my strength levels REALLY are. Hell, I even hit 10 reps during my 1s week on squats.
I want to improve my strength, not my endurance, and start pushing some new weights. I know this many reps is standard to expect during the early months; however, 7 months later I’m getting very bored and I miss challenging weights!
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Update: just finished first week of my 7th cycle.
I hit 11 on OHP, 15 on box squat, 10 on bench. The weights have “not caught up with me” at this point, so I’m taking the rest of this cycle to reevaluate, by doing some heavy triples and doubles to see where my strength levels REALLY are. Hell, I even hit 10 reps during my 1s week on squats.
I want to improve my strength, not my endurance, and start pushing some new weights. I know this many reps is standard to expect during the early months; however, 7 months later I’m getting very bored and I miss challenging weights![/quote]
The weight is going up, and the reps are going up. You are clearly getting significantly stronger, regardless of what rep range you are training for. There’s reason number one to just stick with it.
Reason number two: Who says you can’t still lift heavier weights? On your 3x3 week for example, do 60%x3, 70%x3, 80%x3 (stop at 3, don’t do 3+) and then keep working up heavy triples, instead of the AMRAP set. Can do the same thing with working up heavy singles on your 5/3/1 day.
I wouldn’t recommend utterly changing a program that has clearly been working for you. If you just miss heavy weights, add it in on top, imo.
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
Reason number two: Who says you can’t still lift heavier weights? On your 3x3 week for example, do 60%x3, 70%x3, 80%x3 (stop at 3, don’t do 3+) and then keep working up heavy triples, instead of the AMRAP set. Can do the same thing with working up heavy singles on your 5/3/1 day.
[/quote]
Exactly what I intend to do =)
I know, math doesn’t necessarily translate, but this is significant enough to matter:
Lets arbitrarily put your estimated max squat at 300 7 months ago when you started 5/3/1, just for mathing purposes. 90% of that is a training max of 270. 95% of that is 255, the weight you squatted on your first 1+ set. Add 10 pounds to 270, 7 times, to get to your current training max = 340. 95% of that for the most recent 1+ set (the one you got for 10) is 325. 325 x 10 reps = 435 estimated max. That’s a frickin 45% increase.
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
I know, math doesn’t necessarily translate, but this is significant enough to matter:
Lets arbitrarily put your estimated max squat at 300 7 months ago when you started 5/3/1, just for mathing purposes. 90% of that is a training max of 270. 95% of that is 255, the weight you squatted on your first 1+ set. Add 10 pounds to 270, 7 times, to get to your current training max = 340. 95% of that for the most recent 1+ set (the one you got for 10) is 325. 325 x 10 reps = 435 estimated max. That’s a frickin 45% increase. [/quote]
I understand. I have been keeping an excel file and following along. It’s just that my goal when starting and still is to improve my 5rm, 3rm, and 1rm on the 4 lifts. I think I just started too light to begin with.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
I know, math doesn’t necessarily translate, but this is significant enough to matter:
Lets arbitrarily put your estimated max squat at 300 7 months ago when you started 5/3/1, just for mathing purposes. 90% of that is a training max of 270. 95% of that is 255, the weight you squatted on your first 1+ set. Add 10 pounds to 270, 7 times, to get to your current training max = 340. 95% of that for the most recent 1+ set (the one you got for 10) is 325. 325 x 10 reps = 435 estimated max. That’s a frickin 45% increase. [/quote]
I think I just started too light to begin with. [/quote]
thats what your suposed to do. Stick with it, youre making great progress, dont change it.
[quote]Chris87 wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
I know, math doesn’t necessarily translate, but this is significant enough to matter:
Lets arbitrarily put your estimated max squat at 300 7 months ago when you started 5/3/1, just for mathing purposes. 90% of that is a training max of 270. 95% of that is 255, the weight you squatted on your first 1+ set. Add 10 pounds to 270, 7 times, to get to your current training max = 340. 95% of that for the most recent 1+ set (the one you got for 10) is 325. 325 x 10 reps = 435 estimated max. That’s a frickin 45% increase. [/quote]
I think I just started too light to begin with. [/quote]
thats what your suposed to do. Stick with it, youre making great progress, dont change it.[/quote]
Seriously, it sounds like you are making awesome progress. Why do you want to change something?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Chris87 wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
I know, math doesn’t necessarily translate, but this is significant enough to matter:
Lets arbitrarily put your estimated max squat at 300 7 months ago when you started 5/3/1, just for mathing purposes. 90% of that is a training max of 270. 95% of that is 255, the weight you squatted on your first 1+ set. Add 10 pounds to 270, 7 times, to get to your current training max = 340. 95% of that for the most recent 1+ set (the one you got for 10) is 325. 325 x 10 reps = 435 estimated max. That’s a frickin 45% increase. [/quote]
I think I just started too light to begin with. [/quote]
thats what your suposed to do. Stick with it, youre making great progress, dont change it.[/quote]
Seriously, it sounds like you are making awesome progress. Why do you want to change something?[/quote]
Well, the 15 rep squat set was kinda my last straw (especially during my 7th cycle). This week I’ve worked heavy triples into the mix. I’ve come out with more total volume at a higher weight, and subsequently higher weights and volume added on all the lifts that follow. The high reps were leaving me completely gassed and fucked with the rest of my workout more than I realized.
As I mentioned above, I’m also going to start training at a powerlifting gym and would like feedback from some of the veterans there. I will most likely follow whatever progression they recommend.
I need to go with my gut here. After talking to one of the bench press experts at the new gym, he told me he could tell I’ve been following 5/3/1, because my training merely reflects that I’ve learned ways to put up more reps…not necessarily quality ones. He also points out that he needs to see me pushing closer to my 1rm to be able to spot my technique weak points. So I’m going to listen to him. So yea, my endurance has really gone through the roof; however, as this week has reflected so far, it’s not really translating to improvements in my absolute strength. I need to buckle down and tackle that.
Sooooo seven months later your repping your old max for double digits. And your not stronger? I don’t even know what to say.
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
Sooooo seven months later your repping your old max for double digits. And your not stronger? I don’t even know what to say.[/quote]
Sigh. I give up. People don’t read the actual posts made before posting themselves. That’s just TNation though.
Good day.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
Sooooo seven months later your repping your old max for double digits. And your not stronger? I don’t even know what to say.[/quote]
Sigh. I give up. People don’t read the actual posts made before posting themselves. That’s just TNation though.
Good day. [/quote]
I get what you’re saying. All I would do is stick with the program but start adding significantly more weight to your 1rm each cycle until you’re repping with more satisfying weights. Then on your 5/3/1 day if you feel good try going for an actual 1rm. Not saying you max out every 4 weeks but when you feel good. If you’re recovering which you obviously are you should be fine.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I need to go with my gut here. After talking to one of the bench press experts at the new gym, he told me he could tell I’ve been following 5/3/1, because my training merely reflects that I’ve learned ways to put up more reps…not necessarily quality ones. He also points out that he needs to see me pushing closer to my 1rm to be able to spot my technique weak points. So I’m going to listen to him. So yea, my endurance has really gone through the roof; however, as this week has reflected so far, it’s not really translating to improvements in my absolute strength. I need to buckle down and tackle that. [/quote]
Then it sounds like you were letting your technique break down to get more reps.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
Sooooo seven months later your repping your old max for double digits. And your not stronger? I don’t even know what to say.[/quote]
Sigh. I give up. People don’t read the actual posts made before posting themselves. That’s just TNation though.
Good day. [/quote]
I read your post, this part stuck with me though “So yea, my endurance has really gone through the roof; however, as this week has reflected so far, it’s not really translating to improvements in my absolute strength” you have improved your absolute strength and think where your going to be at 5-7 months from now. Whatever just my opinion.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I need to go with my gut here. After talking to one of the bench press experts at the new gym, he told me he could tell I’ve been following 5/3/1, because my training merely reflects that I’ve learned ways to put up more reps…not necessarily quality ones. He also points out that he needs to see me pushing closer to my 1rm to be able to spot my technique weak points. So I’m going to listen to him. So yea, my endurance has really gone through the roof; however, as this week has reflected so far, it’s not really translating to improvements in my absolute strength. I need to buckle down and tackle that. [/quote]
If you are gonna train with powerlifters to compete yourself I think you are right to listen to them (unless they are nuts!). That said 5/3/1 seems to have served you well and you’ve made great progress. One simple, easy tweak is to do something with a similar 5rep week, 3rep week, 1rep week progression, but have a goal for a a new rep max for each week.
Don’t aim too high on this at the start though and then each week go ten pounds higher on each rep max. My buddy has been doing something like this for a couple years and has gotten his squat over 700 at 198, so it works and it’s simple.
Even still listen to the guys you’ll train with and let them help you. You are on the right track.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]Malaka79 wrote:
Sooooo seven months later your repping your old max for double digits. And your not stronger? I don’t even know what to say.[/quote]
Sigh. I give up. People don’t read the actual posts made before posting themselves. That’s just TNation though.
Good day. [/quote]
I think people are reading the posts man and they just can’t understand why you don’t see your own progress.
I’ve been following the program for just a year now. In 12 cycles my deadlift has gone from 122.5kg x 12 on 5’s week to 172.5kg by 12 on 5’s week this month. That’s estimated max from 171kg (380lbs) to 241kg (532lbs). So now I’m able to lift 12 times a weight I could only lift once less than a year ago! I sure as hell don’t see this as a problem. I’ve worked up to a max twice in this period and I’ve been able to get 5/10kgs over my estimated 1RM. I know everyone is different when it comes to estimating your max from reps but I think people probably give too much time to the thought that you need to be training in lower rep ranges. If this stops working for me then I may re-evaluate but for now I’m happy as a pig in shit.
Best of luck whatever way you go though.
I noticed that my squat strength exploded during the first couple months of the training protocol, and that was in part because–while I had a pretty strong bench and dead–my squat was super weak. I started with a training max of 220, and the next month I had to drop down to a max of 205.
My first week working off of 205, I only got 6 reps at 175. The next week I got 9 at 185. I don’t know what
happened, but the next month–with a training max of 215–I got 13 reps at 195 for my 3 day.
In my experience, and from what I’ve read around the interwebs, if your 5 day is around 10 reps, 3 around 6-8, and 1 around 3-5, then you’re doing pretty well, and there’s no real need to increase your training max, for as soon as you do, you plateau, take 90%, and before you know it, you’re working the exact same weights in a 2-cycle period.
Mark Rippetoe advises against using the type of max-based training because of the enormous gains that you can make when you’re a deconditioned athlete–or even just deconditioned in one lift. I was able to increase my training max from 215 in month 3 to 250 in month 4, and I was still getting 9 reps for 225 on my 3 day for squats.
If you are a deconditioned athlete making ridiculous gains in NERVOUS ability–your ability to fire more motor units at a time, dramatically improved technique, etc–then it may be okay to artificially inflate one of your maxes. To be fair, however, if you’re at the level where you can make such fast gains, 531 may not be for you. Rippetoe criticizes max-based programs for the deconditioned athlete for this very reason: why would you throttle your bench by adding 10 pounds to a training max in two months when you could add 30-40 in the same amount of time.
TL;DR: Like everyone else has said, the program is clearly working for you. Chances are you’re making insane gains because you were improving primarily through your nervous system. If you DO decide to increase the weight, be incredibly conservative in doing so.