I still don’t get why you don’t just try it and see. Jim is saying a training day here because you can’t program jokers. They are something used VERY RARELY when you are having what Paul Carter refers to as a 5 percent day. When all conditions are perfect and you feel great. Quit trying to read things too deep man.
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My question was:
You answer was:
Can I do X?
NOOOOOOOOOO, just do X.
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I never said I wanted to try it or the implications of it. All I have said since I began participating in this thread is that it is written in the book. Period. Then Jim and other guys come and say “no, it’s not, you can’t read, go back to high school English”. Ad hominem.
Just do 5/3/1 with FSL and leave out jokers. Don’t do jokers. Don’t.
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If I’m not mistake, Jim was very high on Joker sets when he wrote Beyond, but has since backed off recommending them because most people can’t seem to autoregulate their training well enough to the see a benefit.
Beyond:
FSL recommendation Pg 12-14:
BBB pg 17
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@anon50325502 said above x2
Context and comprehension.
You quoted a small part and take it as religion. You cup is full grasshopper.
“Here is my bold statement: I truly believe that with the 5/3/1 program and its
principles, the PR set, the Joker sets and the down sets (First Set Last) – you
cannot get weaker.”
The above is a quote from Beyond. Now, as you read it, do you see “do all the same time”? If you answered yes, THAT is the problem.
Because, as you keep reading you come across this:
“Now understand that sometimes you have to back off on the Joker sets and up the First Set Last volume work. And at other times, you go balls out on the Joker sets and back off on the First Set Last. But in the end, both of these things are perfect compliments to the 5/3/1 program.”
And again. You probably see this as “do everything, that’s what I’m saying”. Again, cup full, breath and relax.
What you quoted above is the BEST case scenario of Jokers. This is when you go balls out, you feel great and the world is yours. Because some days, it will be total opposite and it will be a struggle to get thru the 5/3/1 sets. Hell, you might not even get a PR set. PR is the amount of reps you set yourself up to do on the last set This is a number out of your ass. Be it 5 or 8 or whatever.
Here is the quote “Most people should just cap it at between 5-10 reps.” (page 33, Beyond)
Now. lets say you capped your PR at 5. You get your 5 and you feel amazing. Guess what? Jokers are coming. This is the quote you gave me, twice…And it was only an example, not a written in stone statement. you get 1, 2, 3 or what ever Joker sets, great. You might even stop at one.
“The hardest part of Joker sets is using your training experience to know when you can make the jumps without training to failure.” Again, another quote from Beyond. THIS is the biggest mistake people make. They want to do Jokers EVERY day… As noted above, some days will be dark and gloomy. That is the day that you will only do the 5/3/1 and whatever supplemental you have chosen.
“In general though, that is the basic idea: FSL, BBB, BBS, SSL, HH5, SST - there are dozens within the program itself and ALL involve a big movement.” This is a Jim quote from a Question in Aug 2015 to make sure we all know what Supplemental is.
NEVER do two supplemental in one day. But that one you knew.
“Now, to answer your question:
Then it’s ok to do PR sets, jokers then FSL? Because it’s still not clear. You guys are very good at saying we have comprehension problems but not at really explaining shit.”
Yes. And it is clear that you CAN do that.
Doesn’t mean you should (again, that is also clear in the book as quoted above). He gave you the best case scenario on an amazing day of lifting. He never said you WILL do this everyday or you will shrivel to PeeWee Herman size. You have to look at the big picture.
I will say it again, your comprehension skills are not where they should be. You are not reading the whole thing. You took one small part of what he wrote and shut yourself off to the rest.
And btw, linguistic has nothing to do with comprehension. But you knew that, and thank you for letting me know your degree. Cutting and pasting has nothing to do with comprehension either.
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Well, to be honest it all started when Jim agressively told the guy that something wasn’t in his book, and it is there. So the whole problem IS about denying small parts of text exists.
I let you know my degree after you said I didn’t know what reading is, and I defined reading just how reading is defined within Linguistics works nowadays (and it’s not my field of expertise, but I’ve read a bunch of them). I never said my comprehension skills are derived from my work with Linguistics, did I? I also never said cutting and pasting has something to do with that, did I?
But thanks for explained the matter the way you do, without insulting me or anyone with similar doubts.
What I don’t understand is we both read the book, quoted from the book, hell, quoted from the same page.
Yet, I knew the answer and you didn’t.
I would tell you to acknowledge your error, learn and move on, but you will probably argue that as well.
Good luck with your training.
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It’s done bro, its done
Maybe my dumbass newbie perspective can help a bit, I’ve done Jokers a few times and never had issues with them. I think the point is simply that most people are in the beginner or beginner-to-intermediate stage.
If you’re a true beginner, you don’t need Jokers. You need to stick to the program, work on the main lifts focusing on good form and bar speed and basically just put the work in - progress will come, and steadily, along with a better understanding of the program.
After a while, you’ll have some basic experience and you can start toying around a bit with a few options (possibly, always using your brain).
Just keep in mind that a beginner has a much quicker progression than an intermediate or advanced.
As a beginner with some experience, moving towards the intermediate, your progress will slow down or stall from time to time, but you will still set PRs of various kinds very often - this means you will be able to fit in Jokers more often as long as you don’t go full idiot.
But once you are in that intermediate territory, it will become harder and harder to set PRs and that’s where you’ll need to gauge when you can use them, basically if you approach that stage with the mindset that you ALWAYS have to do Jokers, they’ll burn you out.
For me personally, when I tried them, I sticked with the Forever’s explanation and never got issues. I’m definitely a beginner and I managed to do them and survive.
To sum it up, this is how Forever explains Jokers:
-have the right TM (duh);
-increase 5-10% above the heaviest set of the day;
-do 1-2 sets;
-do 1-3 reps per set;
Looking at them point by point, it’s obvious that autoregulation is needed:
-right TM: this goes for everything, really. For most people, 85% is the best option. Beginners at the very beginning can get away with 90% and make steady progress, or there are programs where 90% works because of higher intensity/lower volume. Intermediates-advanced lifters usually hover more in the 80-85% range;
-5-10% increase: your last work set should tell you how much to add. There are times when you might just add 10% straight with no issues, and times when just doing +5% is a more sensible solution. Usually, doing a first set with +5% to gauge how it feels and then eventually move to +10% in the second set if the first one feels good sounds like a good plan, when in doubt be cautious;
-1-2 sets of 1-3 reps: again, it depends on how you feel and how your last work set was. You might do two full sets of 3 reps at +5%, or you could just do two sets of singles at +10%. That’s something that depends on your goal and how your program is laid out;
This immediatly tells you two things:
-
It’s pointless to strictly program the Jokers. Even as a beginner, you’ll have good days and bad days and even in a very good day you might feel like you don’t want to push it towards the maximum-Jokering of +10%/2 sets/3 reps because of common sense. Instead of writing them down ahead of time, I’d rather just leave some blank space on my sheet after the main sets that I can fill in with Jokers to note the weight and reps;
-
This ties with point 1, to do Jokers you need some basic experience on gauging your bar speed and how many reps you can realistically afford.
PR sets are great because after a while, you’ll develop some instinct that tells you if your next rep will be smooth, slower or a grind. This translates well into Jokers because by looking at your last (heaviest) work set and how you did, you have a base for what to expect.
I.e. if you did 9 reps on your “1+” set, it’s very likely you’ll be able to do sets of 3 with +10%.
If your last 5’s pro set was spot on, it’s very likely you’ll have no issues doing +5% for 3 reps, see how it goes and if that one flies up then shoot for +10% for 3 reps.
If at any point you feel you’re slowing down during Joker sets, you stop.
If your last work set felt heavier than it should or if you slowed down at any point or if the AMRAP set had too few reps, you shouldn’t be doing Jokers.
All of this goes along with everything else that has been said and repeated multiple times:
-you don’t need to push all lifts all the time. Even for beginners, upper body lifts tend to slow down earlier than lower body lifts. When it happens you shouldn’t be doing Jokers for those lifts. Also, you don’t have to use the same rep scheme for everything. You can push one or two lifts with PR sets and Jokers, while using 5’s Pro on the other two.
Anecdotal detail: when I did them, my press was on the cusp so I didn’t do any Joker set, my bench was ok but avoided to do them anyway because it needed a slight TM tweak, I was getting 8-10 reps on deads in the 1+ weeks so I went ahead with Jokers and always got 2 sets of 3 with smooth reps, I was doing front squats as main squat lift and sticked to 5’s Pro and Jokers, which worked perfectly with that lift;
-3/5/1 setup is recommended with this kind of programming, and in the “5” (lightest) week you do no Jokers and no AMRAP sets. Also, PR sets shouldn’t be sets where you lift until you’re dead, you’d better have a number in mind (based on your previous cycles) and shoot for that number, then stop. If you have issues doing Jokers after PR sets, even if the PR set was great, it’s likely you tried to crank out too many reps;
-you can back off whenever you feel to. Nobody is pointing a gun at your head, you’re not forced to do 5x5FSL after Jokers. You can do 3x5 or don’t do it at all.
-as a generic rule, if you add something, you need to take off something to keep training balanced. This means that if you’re doing PR Set, Jokers and FSL in the same day, you might want to hold back on the assistance stuff. In Forever, Jokers are listed in the “First Set Last” chapter, along with many other options. All the programs listed there have “50-100 reps” recommended for each category of assistance stuff. It goes by itself that if you’re doing 5’s Pro, 5x5FSL it makes sense to shoot towards the 100 reps. If you’re doing PR sets, 5x5FSL it would make sense to cut it back towards, say, 75 reps. If you’re doing PR sets, Jokers and 5x5FSL (you probably guessed) keeping it towards 50 reps sounds like the smartest plan
I am a beginner and I agree that Jim’s books are usually written very clearly. I understood from the first read that Joker Sets are for when you feel awesome. That probably isn’t happening every time you’re at the gym.
However, it’s hard for a beginner to know when not to do them, especially if you’ve already got % calculations written down somewhere.
I often find myself adding weight after my AMRAP set, without even thinking. I’ll do a few more sets of 3-5 reps and then do my FSL 3x8. If it’s not too late I move into assistance (usually 2 excercises). I leave the gym feeling like a raging bull.
Then the next 36 hours I’m having to drink gallons of water and eat as much as possible to recover and avoid a migraine and other gym hangover symptoms that I get. It can sometimes affect my next workout (I do M,W,F).
I know
How’d it go?