What is everyone’s definitino of tempo running?
biceps,
I was a collegiate 400m runner myself, also went to nationals with a 46.7pr, which I broke at nationals. Anyways, I did not have a successful year until my junior year when a new coach entered our program. The basis was to train endurance then speed.
We (400m team) actually ran 800m distances in the early portions of the year. Ending with as low as repeated 40m sprints.
In the offseason we would run our assess off three days a week and lift four days a week. By running our asses off I mean that we ran distances at times that were beyond a sprinters ideal training distance. 3-6miles at times.
I can get real in depth if you like. I don’t know if this is something you agree on or not.
good luck,
Mathew
Hmm id be interested in seeing the in depth portion, because it contrasts highly with Charlie Francis’ methods(build speed first, then build the endurance to hold it).
im a runner in college, specifying in the 800m, but I also can run the 400. i agree with Mathew on his type of training, with lots of endurance. However I think it should be different for different types of people. The same with the 800, the 400 can be a speed/power event for “sprinters” or strength/endurance for “middle distance” runners. Granted I cant drop down sub 50, I can run 55 really easily any time during a meet, where i once ran 4x8 and 4x4 back to back in a dual meet. Even when I run 55 or 54 or lower, I feel what holds me back is that my legs dont move fast enough or with enough power.
I think in my case I have so much endurance and aerobic capacity i can go all out and hit 53, and finish, but not fall over and pass out, like i do in the 800. I credit this to my distance running which is like 40miles a week, though that would be overkill for you. But say you do some distance runs, and with your natural speed, combined you can be a killer 400m runner. I just lack the pure speed part, which I am tryin to gain with lifting as well, but I know i definitely lack the strength and power.
It seems like you are a strong sprinter, and maybe you have enough strength but now need endurance. I always tell my sprinter teammates to go on distance runs on the weekends, and do longer warmups like 1 mile before practice. That way you sneak in distance without really overloading your legs. I also think the key is not just pure power, but “speed endurance”. Where you get this by doing repeats. A classic workout for me in HS was 8x400s or 10x400s. granted this is a middle distance workout, you could still do the same as our guys all went sub 50 and only a few stuck around 53. 200 repeats are also key.
so recap.
.distance aerobic running will help tons
.lifting and strength work help supplement the running
.however, running 200s and 400s probably are your best bet since it is doing exactly that, sprinting the event you want to improve.
im a runner in college, specifying in the 800m, but I also can run the 400. i agree with Mathew on his type of training, with lots of endurance. However I think it should be different for different types of people. The same with the 800, the 400 can be a speed/power event for “sprinters” or strength/endurance for “middle distance” runners. Granted I cant drop down sub 50, I can run 55 really easily any time during a meet, where i once ran 4x8 and 4x4 back to back in a dual meet. Even when I run 55 or 54 or lower, I feel what holds me back is that my legs dont move fast enough or with enough power.
I think in my case I have so much endurance and aerobic capacity i can go all out and hit 53, and finish, but not fall over and pass out, like i do in the 800. I credit this to my distance running which is like 40miles a week, though that would be overkill for you. But say you do some distance runs, and with your natural speed, combined you can be a killer 400m runner. I just lack the pure speed part, which I am tryin to gain with lifting as well, but I know i definitely lack the strength and power.
It seems like you are a strong sprinter, and maybe you have enough strength but now need endurance. I always tell my sprinter teammates to go on distance runs on the weekends, and do longer warmups like 1 mile before practice. That way you sneak in distance without really overloading your legs. I also think the key is not just pure power, but “speed endurance”. Where you get this by doing repeats. A classic workout for me in HS was 8x400s or 10x400s. granted this is a middle distance workout, you could still do the same as our guys all went sub 50 and only a few stuck around 53. 200 repeats are also key.
so recap.
.distance aerobic running will help tons
.lifting and strength work help supplement the running
.however, running 200s and 400s probably are your best bet since it is doing exactly that, sprinting the event you want to improve.
Long Distance Runs for a sprinter?Sorry but no, for 400, you dont need to go over 500m for endurance and also endurance is built up greatly with tempo runs. And youve got to have speed before you can build endurance for it, so building acceleration, then top speed, then retaining both qualities while working on holding your speed. and with off days tempo runs plus total volume youll be building endurance anyways. But hey dont take my word for it, look at charlie francis, thats just his philosophy and he seems to know a little about making people fast, but hey maybe hes wrong too.
Biceps,
Another thing you might really look at is your 100m time. You might be well out of your league trying to run a sub 50 400m. I believe that you could do it, but, could you be stronger elsewhere?
I was a 4.49 electronic 40 guy in football, and a 10.56 electronic 100m runner. That makes me a great candidate for the 800 in track. I was very heavily recruited out of HS to do exactly that: run the 800 or mile.
That was something I was not about to do. I was only able to break 50 in HS due to the fact that I was a decent sprinter, but, I was an angry sprinter (issues).
I know the 400 is a man’s race, but, the truth is if your top speed is deficient, then you have to run at too great a percentage of your top speed to maintain that speed for 400 yards… does this make sense?
To put it simply: if you run a 10.5 meter hundred meter, then you can run at a slower relative tempo to your top speed than a guy who runs a 11.3 100 meter. In this way, you can be in worse shape, and still be faster for 400 meters.
The posts from the guys above (contrary to Numba) are very true, but it also may be due to the fact that they needed to get in shape… period. I might have done very well with this type of training also, because I was simply not in shape enough to carry my speed for the distance. Unfortunately, if you do it this way, you will never know your personal potential in track.
Charlie Francis obviously gets the best of the best. No one was telling Ben Johnson to run the mile. But, if you were to follow his method, as Numba has laid out for you very well (thanks Numba), then after an accel emphasis and Max Speed emphasis cycle (two months from now if you are in training shape), you could time yourself in a 60m or 100m. By looking at these times, you would be able to extrapolate out what time you could manage in the 200, 400, and 800 if you developed the special endurance necessary for those races. Trust me though, it may be not exactly the answer you want to hear… as it was with me.
Either way, I wish you luck.
I hope that you don’t find out that you are just a lazy miler (as I was…LOL!)
Coach H
CSCS
Coach H
I pmed you about your running but recieved no response. It might not have gone through but if you see this please pm it to me.
Biceps
Im basically going to say the same thing over and what Coach H and Charlie say, you have to have speed before you can maintain it.
Numba,
I am not getting your PM’s. The chart I use for my heavy tempo days is at gk22.
This is a dot-com site that I believe is one of the koolest sites in idea, but lacks on the marketing follow through.
This is not my site, or do I know any of these guys. The chart is under the tools section.
This heavy tempo day is always my last tempo day of the week, as the number of runs are a bit taxing on the glycogen system. Also, I add 1 second to the 50 and 60 meter times, and 5 seconds to the 400 meter times. The times listed work out to approximately 70-75% of a 11 second 100m, 22.5 second 200m, and 52 second 400m runner. I think… it has been a while since I broke it down by meters/second.
BTW- great simple representation of the CFTS. Here is a question for you: what total volume (distance) do you use for accel days, and the same question for your flying (max speed) days? I realize this all depends on the distance of your repeater, but can yo give me a breakdown of what you are personally doing.
I like to compare with others who have tinkered with speed training… key word: “tinkered”.
Thanks.
Coach H
CSCS
Biceps, like Cam said, if you want to run a sub-50 400, then you’ve got to run! Your training program, as far as running goes, is the most important thing. As a 400m runner, I’d highly advise against putting in too many “junk miles,” as the majority of your work should be at race pace or faster.
If you know your current best 400 time, then we could put together a pretty comprehensive program right here. Obviously, as the time approaches for the meet, we’d modify our training objectives to hit the sub :50.
A combination of tempo runs, intervals, and repetitions is the most effective means to achieve your goals. Obviously, you can’t go hard every day, and obviously, you can’t run the 400m at race pace every day. In the latter case, you’d be one and done!
The tempo runs, or cruise intervals, are performed at a comfortably hard pace, which is about the pace that you could maintain for one hour (i.e., slightly above lactate threshold). These runs improve your ability to tolerate and clear lactic acid.
Interval runs, or VO2max intervals, are performed right around VO2max. This is not quite as fast as you’d run the 400m during a race. The greatest benefit of this type of training is optimizing your VO2.
Finally, repetitions are performed at a pace above VO2max. More complete recovery is given between reps (than during intervals), and, therefore, these are done to improve speed and efficiency.
I’d be happy to assist you, B.
Timbo,
On your Interval runs, about what percent do you perform these at, and, what volume and distances do you run these at? I am wondering if these are like CF’s special endurance work or not.
I ralize that every athlete’s VO2 max will be different, but was just wondering about a rough estimation of the % these were done at.
I train many athletes who would benefit greatly from this type of training, and currently I use an amped up form of tempo work a couple times / per week early in the off-season, and once per week at the end of the week late in the season. While I love CF’s tempo runs to build endurance for sprinters and RB’s and LB’s, but I have a group of soccer players and WR’s. These young men are making great gains (I have a kid who ran a 4.36 in the NC shriner combine last summer, down from a 4.7 when we started two years ago. Trying to break into the 4.2’s with a sub 4 second pro-agiltiy.) But, I am always trying to learn more from guys who know their stuff. I believe you do. The kids I train deserve it, as they work very hard.
Thanks in advance.
Coach H
CSCS
Total volume can be adjusted and is also based on time restrictions. For me it depends on the phase, its all about quality. For max velocity and accleration days I do 2 sets of 4-5 sprints. This is sufficient volume to improve speed and allow for my time restriction. Endurance is developed through off day tempo runs, overall volume, or energy system work. I use energy system work and perform the card game in intervals close to that of a real game. If you want to know more about this, or more detail about the CFTS of running I can provide that for you.
Thanks Numba!
Coach H,
Interval runs would be performed at 98-100% VO2max. Since most guys aren’t running on the track with a metabolic cart or meterological balloons, this really translates roughly to the speed that could be maintained for about 10-15 minutes in a race situation. For most people, this is like 3K to 4K race pace, but for the elite runner, it’s more like 5K race pace.
Daniels (1998) states that the amount of quality running during interval sessions should be kept to 8% of weekly mileage.
Because the purpose of the VO2max intervals is to stress the runners VO2max, it’s critical to spend time running at VO2max. When running at appropriate pacing, it takes the body about two minutes to reach the point where it is operating at VO2max.
However, in the case of a 400m runner, you may want to do 400m workbouts, which would be far less than 2-5 minutes. In this case, employing shorter rest intervals doesn’t allow for full recovery and thus the runner can achieve VO2max in subsequent 400m runs.
As far as distances used, Coach H, I’d probably incorporate between 400 and 1600m, with the majority coming at the former, with a 400m runner such as Biceps.
Thanks for your kind words, Coach H, and I hope that I’ve been able to spew some quality info.
Thanks Timbo…very similar to what I understood them as…I appreciate the effort.
Coach H
CSCS
sorry about the double posts, the forums are buggy for me.
anyway, i wasnt saying do “junk” miles. And i didnt mean do 40 or 50 miles a week. but i definitely do believe in distance runs. For example we’ll use numbers with 100 being the highest. In a 400m say for a pure sprinter who does lactic threshold workouts after he hits lactic acid mode he can hold on and stay fast for 10 seconds. So he runs his 400 but he hits the wall at 250m but he’s strong and holds on, but still dies at the end.
I believe that with distance running, not crazy mileage but enough that, your aerobic capacity is so much higher that you wont hit lactic acid until later in the race, even though you cant push through the lactic acid as much as someone who trains solely on lactic threshold. So this runner will get to 300-350m before he starts to die, but only has a little left to go and dies quicker, but still finishes fast.
Thats just theoretical. But what im getting at is you need both lactic threshold, with speed and strength, but also great endurance and aerobic capacity so you can hold off lactic acid mode for as long as possible. Because imagine you never even hit lactic acid, then you would run forever.
Michael Johnson, if i remember right runs 3 miles everyday. All of the top 800m runners come by at the 400m mark at 50-51. and they hold on and finish around 1:47. At 50-51 they arent hitting their lactic acid yet. Sebastian Coe who is still the current 800 and 1000m world record holder can put out sub 47s 400, but that doesnt touch michael Johnsons. but all of those 800 guys run fast and they do mileage, not exactly marathons but they put in good miles. They are the select few greats, which could be the exception. But all of our 800 guys can break 50 and they do the mileage and can also run mid 1:50s in 800.
Try and combine a little of each. and see how it works.
vvsonikvv,
I respectfully appreciate your clarification. I also agree that one can’t–perhaps shouldn’t is a better word–train hard, hard, hard every day of the week. That is, our 400m runner can’t run intervals, repetitions, and tempo runs back-to-back 6 or 7 days of the week.
Depending on the time of the season, a hard-easy or hard-moderate schedule may be in line; during other times of the season, a hard-hard-easy schedule may be implemented.
The point is, the “easy” days would be longer duration runs used to recover from more strenuous previous runs. There’s a time and place for everything.
The “junk” miles come into place when you’ve got guys running upwards of 200 miles per week. (This is an extreme example, but I think you see my point) Or, when you’ve got runners that just run to accumulate distance, not close to race pace or race distance (i.e., a 400m runner running at 70% VO2max for 10 - 15 miles everyday). That’s the point of the types of runs that Coach H and myself propose: to not only improve the metabolic machinery, but to do so at paces and distances that are near or at race pace (and, in some cases, above) and race distances.
I do disagree with the point you were attempting to make about long distance running being the key to a more efficient sprinter. Using the four categories of training (i.e., easy/long distance, tempo, interval, and repetition) that I have mentioned, the runner will optimize his/her potential.
I have run a sub 50 400 in high school so I feel I have a little qualification to give advice.
#1 you have to asses your starting point. I was a cross country runner with great endurance, I lacked speed and power however therefore the majority of my workout were strictly speed and power based. I also preformed enough endurance work to not lose any ground in that category. If you are a naturally powerful or fast sprinter, train for endurance.
#2 Don’t overtrain but when you have a hard work day work your ass off. 3 runners out of 4 on my 4x4 relay team were under 50 seconds, however the other two did not work very hard to get there… I did. They probably could have ran sub 47 if they really trained hard.
#3 when you get closer to your meet you should be doing several times a week a couple runs of 400m at 100%. When we went to our state finals we had to run a full speed 400m at least 8 or 9 times in qualifying for the two weeks prior. Our times improved more in that 2 weeks than they did the rest of the season.
#4 good luck! You shouldn’t have much trouble dropping a second and a half off your time in 4 months.
Very interesting thread and I too ran the 400 M in 51.5 in '69 (yes I am old) on a ‘dirt’ track. I found that I needed, in retrospect, more over-distance training, like 600M at a fast pace because I usually tired in the final 50M. No wonder, the coach only trained us at 220s all the time.
Also, you are quite strong; however I think you might be better off if you weighed about 10-12 pounds less for the 400M. I can’t think of any world-class 400M runner over 200 lb although I am sure that decathletes can do it. Good luck.
All this valuable information…I surely hope that it doesn’t go to the wayside!
Biceps, where are ya, dog? We want to help you get to that sub-50 time and get your ass on the team!