30m Sprints

Training Powerlifting
101

“davan” - I was supposed to bow out of this thread, but its interesting. Not staying in to win, or be right, I dont mind being wrong if we are all moving in the right direction.

Interesting to low, medium and highly trained atheletes and subjects.

If you ask around you will find that an increase of the vert jump thru going thru a structured plyometric program has some carry over in sprinting speed.

How to describe it and why it occor or can occur, I wouldnt know. I guess my uninformed anser would be “plymetrics have been known to boost sprinting speed”.

I have a personal belief, of a guy who may have made it pretty far in say bball. Playing 5 years at a high level, who has never done any plyometrics will gain if he goes on a plyometric program. And I believe this applies for any other athelete who has not done specific training for this skill.

I believe and actually know, that on a untrained person or low skill athelete that the benefits are much greater. DOH. I guess the lower skill guy is pretty much training himself to do the action correctly.

On the higher skill there is going to be less gain, but should be gain nevertheless if he never trained for it.

Thats got a little meat in it and alot of fat…

102

i’ve tried to figure out how did u get that .9 speed of yours . since very arbitrary and not correct.if u look at average splits for top elite sprinters over 100 m u realize how wrong u are .in fact top level sprinter average only .87 that means that this kid can ran shoulder to shoulder with the best in the world according to you .

on top of that if u try to split 6.5 55m you’ll get samething like this 1.9 10m /1.3 20m/ 1. 30m/1. 40m/1. 50m/.50 50 to 55 m . so as u can see he wont ever be able to reach that .9 of yours . that would lead to 11" at best over 100 m if u ask me

103

if u need to call someone a moron . well thatz something u should keep for yourself

104

[quote]soccerstud wrote:
i’ve tried to figure out how did u get that .9 speed of yours . since very arbitrary and not correct.if u look at average splits for top elite sprinters over 100 m u realize how wrong u are .in fact top level sprinter average only .87 that means that this kid can ran shoulder to shoulder with the best in the world according to you . [/quote] lol wow, they hit top speeds of .83. Hitting .9 for 1 10m segment is not incredible and I don’t see a 10.8 sprinter being far off from that.

on top of that if u try to split 6.5 55m you’ll get samething like this 1.9 10m /1.3 20m/ 1. 30m/1. 40m/1. 50m/.50 50 to 55 m . so as u can see he wont ever be able to reach that .9 of yours . that would lead to 11" at best over 100 m if u ask me [/quote]

Just stop posting because you are wasting time and obviously have never seen splits from athletes and have never run track. Look up splits from women sprinters who run 10.7-11.0 (who will typically have similar capacities as men running those times, maybe slightly lower accel/max speed and better speed endurance) and then argue.

105

[quote]djrobins wrote:

If you ask around you will find that an increase of the vert jump thru going thru a structured plyometric program has some carry over in sprinting speed.[/quote]

Isn’t sprinting a plyometric movement? Isn’t playing basketball plyometric? Sprinting is the most plyometric activity that exists, so don’t see your point here.

[quote]
How to describe it and why it occor or can occur, I wouldnt know. I guess my uninformed anser would be “plymetrics have been known to boost sprinting speed”.[/quote]

If by plyometrics you mean things like depth jumps, etc. okay, but this guy is already doing that albeit in lower volumes since he has such a high volume of the most plyometric activity humans can do–sprint.

[quote]
I have a personal belief, of a guy who may have made it pretty far in say bball. Playing 5 years at a high level, who has never done any plyometrics will gain if he goes on a plyometric program. And I believe this applies for any other athelete who has not done specific training for this skill.[/quote]

Playing basketball itself is plyometric. What do you think dunking, rebounding, etc. is? Jumping and plyometric exercises.

[quote]
I believe and actually know, that on a untrained person or low skill athelete that the benefits are much greater. DOH. I guess the lower skill guy is pretty much training himself to do the action correctly.[/quote]

This guy is obviously skilled. 6.5 55m is pretty damn fast. Not world class, but fast. 330 powerclean is pretty powerful. 500+lb full squat is strong. THis guy isn’t a lower skilled guy.

[quote]
On the higher skill there is going to be less gain, but should be gain nevertheless if he never trained for it.

Thats got a little meat in it and alot of fat…[/quote]

i don’t see the meat. Look he is doing plyometrics every time he sprints. If by plyos you mean incorporating depth jumps he does that. Now if he does more depth jumps and less sprints and lifts, how is that really going to help his sprinting? Not as plyometric, less specific, etc.

106

10m 20m 30m 40m 50m 60m 70m 80m 90m 100
Colander 2.08 3.19 4.23 5.19 6.14 7.11 8.04 9.00 9.97 10.97
(2.08) (1.11) (1.04) (0.96) (0.95) (0.97) (0.93)* (0.96) (0.97) (1.00)

Edwards 2.05 3.15 4.17 5.14 6.08 7.05 8.03 9.00 10.00 11.02
(2.05) (1.10) (1.02) (0.97) (0.94)* (0.97) (0.98) (0.97) (1.00) (1.02)

L. Williams 2.08 3.21 4.23 5.22 6.17 7.16 8.13 9.10 10.08 11.10
(2.08) (1.13) (1.02) (0.99) (0.95)* (0.99) (0.97) (0.97) (0.98) (1.02)

Devers 2.04 3.11 4.16 5.13 6.08 7.07 8.04 9.04 10.05 11.11
(2.04) (1.07) (1.05) (0.97) (0.95)* (0.99) (0.97) (1.00) (1.01) (1.06)

Jones 2.04 3.21 4.24 5.23 6.18 7.16 8.13 9.11 10.10 11.14
(2.04) (1.17) (1.03) (0.99) (0.95)* (0.98) (0.97) (0.98) (0.99) (1.04)

Lee 2.06 3.19 4.23 5.23 6.18 7.20 8.16 9.16 10.14 11.17
(2.06) (1.13) (1.04) (1.00) (0.95)* (1.02) (0.96) (1.00) (0.98) (1.03)

A. Williams 2.03 3.12 4.15 5.16 6.13 7.14 8.10 9.13 10.17 11.23
(2.03) (1.09) (1.03) (1.01) (0.97) (1.01) (0.96)* (1.03) (1.04) (1.06)

Daigle 2.03 3.15 4.17 5.19 6.16 7.14 8.14 9.16 10.17 11.23
(2.03) (1.12) (1.02) (1.02) (0.97)* (0.98) (1.00) (1.02) (1.01) (1.06)

Those are splits from the 2004 US Oly trials for women. You can see the fastest women (10.97) didn’t run 6.5 through 55, probably closer to 6.6/6.6mid. Look at her best split also–.93. I don’t think it is far off for a 10.8 sprinter w/ poor speed endurance to go .90/.91.

107

davan . since your the master of the universe know it all . insted of telling me what to do .split that 6.5 for me and keep adding those .9 of yours and give me that 10.8 .then i’ll be pleased to talk track with u

108

10.97/11.23 . like i said 11" at best u moron

109

[quote]soccerstud wrote:
10.97/11.23 . like i said 11" at best u moron[/quote]

Are you a retard? LOOK AT THEIR SPLITS. None of them run 6.5. They all run 6.6 or slower. The fastest runs ~6.6, maybe 6.6mid through 55 and finishes in 10.97–if you run 6.5 through 55 10.8x is very feasible. The slowest runs close to 6.7. 2 tenth of a second difference just through 55m.

110

“utfootball”.

Im going to leave this one alone for sure.

But basket ball is akin to doing a systematic plyometric progression as playing football on the line is lifting weigths.

THe plyo’s allowed you to specialize and develop on the stretch reflex function.

Plyo’s allowed you to get greater than a natural loading so you can apply it.

Why has track and field come so far since the days of Jesse Owens? DO you really think its been a massive genetic jump?

Howabout how football teams in the state of pennsylvania who once had several guys under 4.7 field 20 or so guys under 4.7 for the 40? SPecialized speed programs.

I’m going to leave it alone, bow out and hope you guys can come up with something constructive.

111

[quote]soccerstud wrote:
davan . since your the master of the universe know it all . insted of telling me what to do .split that 6.5 for me and keep adding those .9 of yours and give me that 10.8 .then i’ll be pleased to talk track with u[/quote]

lol what are you talkin about bud? just learn math and then contribute. you started off trying to correct people and saying their timing is off when you don’t know what the hell you are talking about.

112

[quote]djrobins wrote:
“utfootball”.

Im going to leave this one alone for sure.

But basket ball is akin to doing a systematic plyometric progression as playing football on the line is lifting weigths.

THe plyo’s allowed you to specialize and develop on the stretch reflex function.

Plyo’s allowed you to get greater than a natural loading so you can apply it.

Why has track and field come so far since the days of Jesse Owens? DO you really think its been a massive genetic jump?

Howabout how football teams in the state of pennsylvania who once had several guys under 4.7 field 20 or so guys under 4.7 for the 40? SPecialized speed programs.

I’m going to leave it alone, bow out and hope you guys can come up with something constructive.

[/quote]

What PA football teams are you talking about? High school? College? Pro? Not really any fast teams out of the state of PA. I raced and beat the #1 cb out of PA (and out of the nation) my senior year in track and I wasn’t anything special. The college level isn’t much better.

113

I don’t have any specific teams.

I was reading an SI article, probably 2 years ago about the “speed programs” that tend to be used by southern schools being used in Pennsylvania with great success.

Supposedly worked for them.

114

[quote]davan wrote:
djrobins wrote:
“utfootball”.

Im going to leave this one alone for sure.

But basket ball is akin to doing a systematic plyometric progression as playing football on the line is lifting weigths.

THe plyo’s allowed you to specialize and develop on the stretch reflex function.

Plyo’s allowed you to get greater than a natural loading so you can apply it.

Why has track and field come so far since the days of Jesse Owens? DO you really think its been a massive genetic jump?

Howabout how football teams in the state of pennsylvania who once had several guys under 4.7 field 20 or so guys under 4.7 for the 40? SPecialized speed programs.

I’m going to leave it alone, bow out and hope you guys can come up with something constructive.

What PA football teams are you talking about? High school? College? Pro? Not really any fast teams out of the state of PA. I raced and beat the #1 cb out of PA (and out of the nation) my senior year in track and I wasn’t anything special. The college level isn’t much better.
[/quote]

r u from PA davan?

115

ut–for high school yep

dj, i can tell you for a fact most of those programs are shit. I have seen one used by two of the top teams in WPIAL (western PA), one of which was ranked #6 in the country. Both teams had nearly 20 season ending injuries. The speed sucked as well, but that is another issue. I will say again there are not many fast folks out of PA compared to say FL, TX, Cali, North Carolina, Ohio, etc. The same goes for the college level. PSU and Pitt do not have a lot of burners (maybe 1 or 2, but even that is questionable).

116

[quote]davan wrote:
ut–for high school yep

dj, i can tell you for a fact most of those programs are shit. I have seen one used by two of the top teams in WPIAL (western PA), one of which was ranked #6 in the country. Both teams had nearly 20 season ending injuries. The speed sucked as well, but that is another issue. I will say again there are not many fast folks out of PA compared to say FL, TX, Cali, North Carolina, Ohio, etc. The same goes for the college level. PSU and Pitt do not have a lot of burners (maybe 1 or 2, but even that is questionable).[/quote]

how many depth jumps would u do with such program, and how would you setup his strength training, im just curious to hear other thoughts?

117

You guys are right.

It was said that the schools in Pennsylvania improved speed on a whole, but definately did not make them into the burners that you find in:

  1. Florida
  2. Cali
  3. Texas

I was told Georgia can burn too.

At this point I’m not adding much, but for the original problem which was one of 55M.

I’d say improve the start and first 10M.

You can focus on that while alternating a plyo program.

118

id add bench proper to monday to givr chest a break for the rep effort work on fri and just switch it around with the split jerk. mondy is a heavy day rep range and set range you should set IMO it is personal and you cant listen to others i would probably do 6x2pc, 5x3bsq, and 5x5 bench press. but like i say it is all about the individual. add in lat and grip work as accessory lifts.

mon:
pc
bsq
bp

ditch the jumps squats the DE squats/ pylos are OLYs are enought in terms of explosive movements. add in lat and trap/neck and grip work. here as accessory lifts. you choice. do your posterior chain accessory work here. one hip flexion and one knee flexion

wed:
hang clean
spilt jerk

id contemplate dropping the pc on friday but see how you are feeling depends on all your other training. id do 6x2 for the DE squat. 2x8 or step ups. then 2 or 3 sets off 225. add in tricep and shoulder accessory work.

fri:
pc
dym squat
stepups
225 work

add in your grip and rotoar cuff/ abs/ obliquies/ adductor/ abductors when you need. varies from individual to indivual i do cuff work 2x daily but no people who barely do any (but that is cos i have disclocated both shoulders from rugby)

119

[quote]big49ersfan wrote:
id add bench proper to monday to givr chest a break for the rep effort work on fri and just switch it around with the split jerk. mondy is a heavy day rep range and set range you should set IMO it is personal and you cant listen to others i would probably do 6x2pc, 5x3bsq, and 5x5 bench press. but like i say it is all about the individual. add in lat and grip work as accessory lifts.

mon:
pc
bsq
bp

ditch the jumps squats the DE squats/ pylos are OLYs are enought in terms of explosive movements. add in lat and trap/neck and grip work. here as accessory lifts. you choice. do your posterior chain accessory work here. one hip flexion and one knee flexion

wed:
hang clean
spilt jerk

id contemplate dropping the pc on friday but see how you are feeling depends on all your other training. id do 6x2 for the DE squat. 2x8 or step ups. then 2 or 3 sets off 225. add in tricep and shoulder accessory work.

fri:
pc
dym squat
stepups
225 work

add in your grip and rotoar cuff/ abs/ obliquies/ adductor/ abductors when you need. varies from individual to indivual i do cuff work 2x daily but no people who barely do any (but that is cos i have disclocated both shoulders from rugby)
[/quote]

What kind of volume on the running? I assume you would drop the volume on the running a lot compared to 2000m+(split between 3 sessions) a week of speed work?

120

Some thoughts for consideration/discussion:

It’s clear he has a short stride, and equally clear his limb lengths at least partially account for it. But how much?

Does he work on flexibility (dynamic, PNF) consistently? DeFranco, for one, really emphasizes PNF stretching after weights, and considering he stretches but doesn’t always sprint his athletes in the off-season, one might conclude that – in the training of athletes at least – lifting, mobility and flexibility can increase speed even in the absence of dedicated sprint training.

Keeping all training methods closer to the static end of the static-dynamic continuum within a training session (if not for specific macrocycles), with some exceptions during the warm-up to maintain neurological pattern recognition, might account for the effectiveness of his approach.

Sprinting form, however, though largely a function of posterior chain dominance and static-spring proficiency, is also a skill, and something competitive sprinters probably need to practice consistently. I imagine you’ve seen people debate this topic at Elitetrack and CharlieFrancis.com

Certainly, many people (Mike Young over at Elitetrack, for example) train all motor qualities in one session with great results. Others believe in dedicated sessions. As noted above, DeFranco stretches his athletes after weights, presumably because it saves time, his athletes muscles are warm, and he can help them do it. Thibaudeau recommends stretching several hours removed from training, as stretching after weights might exacerbate microtrauma in the muscles and actually inhibit, rather than contribute to recovery – good for hypertrophy, not as good when it interferes with the frequent practice of a neurologically complex or demanding skill.

I realize this is getting a bit theoretical, but as athletes perform at higher and higher levels such considerations become more and more important. If he in fact doesn’t need more flexibility training and has actually been working on it for some time, then light stretching for maintenance after weights might be all you need. If flexibility is something you think he really needs to improve, a dedicated session might be in order.

To show my cards: I read quite a bit, but have never trained anyone formally, so I’m interested in others’ experience. Thoughts?