3 Months, No Weights, Same Strength

So I just recently returned from a three month fight camp in Thailand.
During my time there I trained extensively in martial arts, which ate up a lot of my time and energy. Needless to say, the last thing I wanted to do was lift after 3 hours of kicking pads and choking people. So I didn’t lift, for three months.

I think it’s also important to note that I was having a daily protein intake of something around 60 - 80 grams per day@145lbs bw. However, I was eating a lot more organ meats, the most I’ve ever had in my life ( I virtually eat none back home in America ).

Upon returning home, I anxiously hit the gym. And to my surprise, my strength, for the most part, remained intact.

The reason I wanted to share this, is because I did everything you were supposed to do if you want to NOT get stronger.

I ate less, and didn’t progressively increase the load on my lifts… for three months.

My theory on why this is possible is…

  • extensive grip use from martial arts training
  • organ meats
  • training experience
  • focus on quality, not quantity of training
  • high fat diet

One of my favorite authors, Nora Gedgaudas, has suggested low protein intake even though she is an advocate of the primal lifestyle. And of course, I initially waved it off and noted that as the biggest flaw in her findings… However, experiencing how I performed with a MUCH lower protein/overall caloric intake that I was used to back home was a real eye opener for me.

The people around me obsessed over the amount of protein they got each day, whereas my sole focus was on quality fats. I took fish oil as my sole supplement, every other day. This is because the chickens were free range for the most part… so I was able to get quality omega 3’s through that source via eggs. I would get sore, but not ‘tight’ or ‘achy’… compared to those who got ‘adequate’ protein that were pretty stiff everyday.

Crazy shit is that I even brought 3lbs of whey protein with me, which took up nearly a third of my suitcase and I never even touched it!

That’s interesting to hear. Sometimes I think that the time I use to Deadlift/Press and Squat/Bench, could be used to recover and or add in another Muay Thai training session.

I am glad you had an enjoyable and productive trip.

I do think some of the emphasis on protein stems from folks trying to build and hold on to large amounts of muscle. I can imagine all kinds of things being needed for someone trying to be a 3 lb or more per inch of height body builder vs a combat athlete who wants to be “tall” in their class.

I also think similar things about “strength levels”. I am thinking a competitive lifter would notice the differences, hell at high levels “peaking” is a really important concept. For a fighter on the other hand the “its all GPP” idea may be more descriptive.

Can you give us an idea about your lifts?

How tall are you?

Regards,

Robert A

Thanks. Thailand definitely was enjoyable, to say the least. I went during the worst winters in NYC history… so the tremendous heat down there was a welcome respite for me.

And I absolutely agree that a specific strength/physique athletes would most likely feel the effects of ‘lack of protein.’ I’m not planning to continue my exact diet from Thailand, but I’ve learned more about how food affects me, if not most people.

My all time squat PR @365, DL@415, and bench@245lbs x 3 reps
Currently I’m @295 @335 @225? respectively
I’m 5’6

I stopped lifting heavy just about 4 years ago. I realized lifting too heavy only gave me tight hips and achy joints… not to mention it did nothing to help my martial arts. It’s good to have a strong squat, but there’s a point where that strength gives you diminishing returns on the mat. Same goes for any of the big three.

My new found grip strength since returning has given me a lot of confidence with the bar. Easily gripping 100lbs DB for rows.

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
That’s interesting to hear. Sometimes I think that the time I use to Deadlift/Press and Squat/Bench, could be used to recover and or add in another Muay Thai training session. [/quote]

Best thing that happened to my kicking power AND punching power was dropping heavy squats/DL from my plate.

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
That’s interesting to hear. Sometimes I think that the time I use to Deadlift/Press and Squat/Bench, could be used to recover and or add in another Muay Thai training session. [/quote]

Best thing that happened to my kicking power AND punching power was dropping heavy squats/DL from my plate.
[/quote]

I don’t doubt it.

I think the slow/grinding strength lifting builds has more benefit to grappling/anything where you are clinched than pure striking arts.

I will also pose the question “Do you think you would have the same results if you never built yourself up in the first place?” Even if you are sort of costing now your lifts aren’t weak by any means.

Regards,

Robert A

Great question brotha.

My training is unconventional in that I don’t really follow ‘protocol’. I don’t eat the way I’m supposed to eat, or use the templates I’m supposed to use. I’ve been focused on calisthenics for nearly 4 years now, and I don’t plan on changing anytime soon.

I’m at a point in my training where I don’t consider the number of reps all that important anymore. My training rep usually ranges from 1 - 6 reps using sub maximal weight. For instance, although I can row 150’s for 12, I don’t usually go above 105 and I’ll arrange an array of cluster sets of between 1 - 3 reps focused on speed. Deeper into my workout, I’ll grab either 60 or 70’s and rep out 15 reps, although I’ll have room for 25+.

The man that really influenced this ‘fucked up’ scheme is Thibs. When T nation released their video series, I was introduced to what Thibs calls the force curve. He also brought my attention to the importance on getting your CNS to fire on all cylinders. Fast twitch fibers, that are most responsible for power and speed, engage the most during explosive movements. They are also responsible for your strength, and hypertrophy if that is your goal.

With that said, it is quite difficult to be explosive with supramaximal weights. The load on the bar becomes the stimulant, rather than your controlled premonition of the weight… So what I would do is use the 105lbs DB for single arm bent over rows. But rather than going for the conventional rep schemes, I would focus entirely on control and speed.

I use this methodology on all my lifts… which isn’t many.

Pull ups, push ups, dips, OH press, and squats. My exercise selection is limited, but the focus is paramount.

So I would have to say that this is perhaps the biggest contributing factor on why my strength hasn’t dissipated, even with a 12 week absence from the iron.

Compare that to the regular gym guy, who loses a substantial amount of moxie at the gym after only 2 week absence or so.

And to put it in simple terms, the main difference in how I train and how others train, is that I focus on training the CNS, rather than focusing on training the muscle.

But of course one could say that simply training your muscle is training your nerves…

I’ll believe you when you can find a pro bodybuilder that can throw a baseball as hard as Tim Lincecum.

Very interesting. May I ask you if you lost any weight, and if not, whether you’ve gained any over years of working out?

I started off camp @145lbs

Had a stomach bug (normal when traveling to other continents and drinking their water) for about two weeks, which I lost 12lbs.
I only gained back about 5lbs or so getting back to health.

I was around 125lbs after wrestling season my senior year of high school (2003).
From there I eventually bulked to 150lbs, hitting 160lbs @16%BF at my peak weight.
Needless to say, I was a bulky, chubby mess. But I didn’t care because I had the freedom to eat whatever I wanted… which for anyone who’s cut weight for an entire wrestling season knows about. I only cared about gaining weight and getting bigger.

Right now I’m sitting at a stable 140lbs, lean.

This is a really interesting thread. For years, I followed all the accepted wisdom of how to get bigger and stronger. I counted grams of protein religiously, followed weight and rep progressions religiously and, yes, I did get much bigger and stronger. However, recently, I’ve been experimenting with lower (sometimes significantly so) levels of protein and a much more bare bones strength regimen consisting almost entirely of chins, dips, push presses and dead lifts. So far, my strength levels and overall physique have not suffered and it’s left me a lot more time for my boxing (which at this stage of my life is just a hobby). I think that the big thing for me in terms of why a much more stripped down diet and training regimen has worked so well is because the intensity of the workouts has remained high. I think this is related to your comments on explosiveness.

Also, I think that we often get too caught up in the minutia of training. I often try to mould my training on that of boxers and strength athletes from the past (ie. pre steroid era). These guys just nutted-up up and killed it with training methodologies that would be laughable to many of today’s supposedly in the know coaches. However, results speak more than creatively interpreted studies. I’m interested in how your training in calisthenics is structured. Could you elaborate on this further as it is something I am starting to get more heavily involved in?

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

And to put it in simple terms, the main difference in how I train and how others train, is that I focus on training the CNS, rather than focusing on training the muscle.

But of course one could say that simply training your muscle is training your nerves…

I’ll believe you when you can find a pro bodybuilder that can throw a baseball as hard as Tim Lincecum.[/quote]

I cringe whenever the CNS vs Muscle distinction gets brought up.

I can usually “translate” the terms to follow what people are trying to convey, but it takes some work.

In your case I am guessing it is some combo of freq, not to failure, and lift selection.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]CMdad wrote:
This is a really interesting thread. For years, I followed all the accepted wisdom of how to get bigger and stronger. I counted grams of protein religiously, followed weight and rep progressions religiously and, yes, I did get much bigger and stronger. However, recently, I’ve been experimenting with lower (sometimes significantly so) levels of protein and a much more bare bones strength regimen consisting almost entirely of chins, dips, push presses and dead lifts. So far, my strength levels and overall physique have not suffered and it’s left me a lot more time for my boxing (which at this stage of my life is just a hobby). I think that the big thing for me in terms of why a much more stripped down diet and training regimen has worked so well is because the intensity of the workouts has remained high. I think this is related to your comments on explosiveness.

Also, I think that we often get too caught up in the minutia of training. I often try to mould my training on that of boxers and strength athletes from the past (ie. pre steroid era). These guys just nutted-up up and killed it with training methodologies that would be laughable to many of today’s supposedly in the know coaches. However, results speak more than creatively interpreted studies. I’m interested in how your training in calisthenics is structured. Could you elaborate on this further as it is something I am starting to get more heavily involved in?[/quote]

Yes, and like yourself, I too found success with the true and tried methods and templates that are often expressed on this forum and the like. But as I matured in my training ( lifting and BJJ/boxing/muay thai ) I found less and less purpose in deadlifting/squatting 2 or 3 times my bodyweight, especially for the realm of combat.

Most pundits would agree that compound movements for S&C should be emphasized (barring a special need) for most, if not all sports. However, I think semantics from another world poured into ours.

My workouts usually consist of pullups, dips, standing skull crushers, squats, and single arm bent over rows. Virtually every session. ( I do curls, tricep extensions, and lateral/front raises for supp )

The important thing is I don’t do pull ups just one way. I greatly vary the speed during the concentric and eccentric phase. I throw in what I call a ‘focus rep’ where I intensely focus on technique. For example, for the pull up I will hold the top position and intensely squeeze my shoulder blades to emphasize scapular retraction. I’ll note where my elbows are positioned, how shrugged or flat my shoulders are, where my feet are positioned, how erect or tilted I am, finger grip or palm grip, how hard I can push my chest into the bar, etc. I’ll do the same for pulling behind the neck, except for this move I focus how hard I can pull my upper back into the bar. I’ll perform static holds in various positions, one hand and two hands. I also hang on the bar, a lot, which is also my warm up.

**For jitz people
[[ BJJ or any martial art is about nuances. A strong grip on a bar, does not equate to a strong grip on the gi and same applies for hips. If it were true, powerlifters would be some of the greatest rollers in the world. Because jitz, after all, is hips and grips. ]]

Among the aforementioned, I’ll also do some muscle ups, varying in explosiveness.

I bring the same kind of methodology to my other exercise selections… and you have a nearly endless amount of variations to master.

How my routine looks in action is quite hard to explain. I never keep track of total reps… I only focus on proprioception and feeling. There will be sets of pull ups where I’ll go one rep… ranging to 6. None of them are rushed, all are quality. However, when I feel particularly good on a set, I may bust out 15 reps, but I always leave room in the tank. Once I’m ‘bored’ with pull ups, I’ll jump on a bar and perform some standing skull crushers. Then it’s straight to the dumbbells for single arm rows, then dips, then squats and so forth. If I’m tired, I’ll do some curls and tricep extensions for rest. In essence, I’m continually in motion. If my back is fatigued, I work my anterior until it is rested, and vice versa. If all my stations are occupied, I just find space and perform ATG BW squats until something opens up.

If the gym isn’t too packed, I’ll load the bar with a chip on each side and bust out some behind the neck jerks.

I always leave the gym with extra fuel in the tank. Never fatigued, never ‘sore’ for days at a time. By doing this, I’m fitting in three or four times the amount of volume into my workout… Because I can literally train like this up to 6 days a week. And I think it’s very important to note here, that I’m also doing it with precise technique and a full tank of gas (fresh neurons).

Long story short ( I know it’s already long ), my method was partially influenced by shaking hands with a bricklayer. The man did not lift weights, nor did he pick up anything particularly heavy. The heaviest thing he picked up was a brick… which is usually less than 5lbs. All he would do is pick up 5lbs and lay it down, for hours. After years of doing this, his body adapted. And although he didn’t get take his BCAA’s, even though he didn’t systematically increase the load, even though he didn’t supplement with whey, his hand had the power of two men. His forearm wasn’t particularly massive, but he repped captain of crush #2 for 3 reps.

I’ve found that I’ve had the opposite experience. Lifting heavy helped my muay thai and BJJ quite a lot. I’ve found that I am much more explosive when I need to be after a heavy squat day.

“Most pundits would agree that compound movements for S&C should be emphasized (barring a special need) for most, if not all sports. However, I think semantics from another world poured into ours.”

I also think that might be because other sports, like football, don’t have weight divisions. I think pure strength becomes more important if you don’t have weight classes. Where people are around the same size and weight, you can get away with even pure body weight training because strength will be, generally speaking, the same. Technique will more likely be the deciding factor. But 9/10 times, Bruce Lee will not beat Andre the Giant.

This thread is purely theoretical knowledge. I don’t believe there is any empirical evidence (besides my own) to prove anything we’re discussing. If it is working for you, you should keep doing it. There will never be an end all be all method.

However, there are some fishy statements you made. Almost never do I ever always roll with someone the same size as me. With that said, you role with virtually everyone at your academy. Big, small, beginner, advanced, etc. I rolled with OneFC heavyweight James McSweeney out in Thailand. Different weight class, even different belt. Perhaps your academy does it differently? And if pure strength, not sure where you compartmentalize that, was of utmost importance, every year the highest rated athlete during football combine’s would be the all star players… and we all know, they never are.

And Andre the giant beats Bruce Lee 9 times out of 10? I don’t know dude. I think Andre would have a hard time catching Bruce. But that’s just my two cents.

interesting thread…

i’m not surprised at all you were able to maintain strength. but, i think that’s the key… maintain. you were already in shape and pretty strong, and it’s not as though you were eating like a pig and boozing it up in Thailand-you were working out, hard.

i think a lot of athletes get wound up about protein, largely because of marketing. as long as the minimum intake is met, you should not be hindered, at all. i think raising protein intake is really more beneficial when one is looking to lose body-fat or recomp, without PED’s.

another great point you make is healthy fat intake… the late steroid guru Dan Duchaine said that EFA’s were the most important supplement a bodybuilder should worry about.

side note: i’ve found as i get older, that i need way less to maintain strength and muscle. i’ve also largely transitioned to a calisthenics-based program, due to less wear on my old man joints, and it seems to transfer over better to athletic pursuits.

There have been some nutritionists that have given lower protien diets for some of their clients, bc they were way too stacked, but needed better cardio.

That’s what Shane Carwin’s trainer did 2-3 years ago, didn’t matter though, guy still wanted to be a one trick pony anyway and was mediocre even after he had better cardio. It did extend his career thiugh, so this approach may have some merit.