22 Year Old, 5'10'', 160 lbs (Warning Long)

[dt79]

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
Didn’t really think this was the place to discuss said minutiae, but this was more what I was referring to:

The template you set out is very bench-heavy and has a relatively minor emphasis on delts. I don’t think this is the right fit for a guy who’s training for women. Once you can see some pop in your pecs through your shirt, the average population thinks you have a nice chest, regardless of how imbalanced it actually might be.[/quote]

I based this off his own choice of exercises to show how they can be split up and utilized more effectively. The only change is the addition of rear delt work.

Also, I fail to see the value in doing strength work with skullcrushers. I know many people, myself included, for whom all that would accomplish is killing their elbows. Not entirely sure what the value in doing 4 back-to-back strength movements that utilize similar muscles is either. I certainly wouldn’t be able to sustain any sort of load progression on a slow moving lift like OHP after already going heavy on bench and incline bench.

This is why I did not write “strength work”. The goal is still hypertrophy but using heavy weights and ensuring that he pushes himself to add weight to the bar. As for progressing on the OHP, it can be done at his level.

If you’re using 531 for strength progression, many people would have to be quite conscious of their daily max in joker sets or RPE in + sets. For many, it’d be quite easy to burn out quickly, especially if he’s adding a second high volume day with ample AMRAP sets. Especially given the tendency of many people (especially late novices IME) to start with overly liberal training maxes.

He’s a beginner. No one is talking about daily maxes, RPEs, joker sets etc.

[quote]Once again, I recognize that the template you gave was intended to be an illustrative example of how to incorporate strength and hypertrophy training techniques and progression into one’s programming as opposed to saying, “do this program.”

I’d probably set out a 6 day template something like this:

Day 1 - Upper (strength - bench, hypertrophy - chest, horizontal pull, triceps)
Day 2 - Lower (strength - squat, hypertrophy - lower body with a quad focus)
Day 3 - Abs/Accessory/Conditioning
Day 4 - Upper (strength - OHP, hypertrophy - delts, vertical pull, biceps)
Day 5 - Lower (strength - deadlifts, hypertrophy - lower body, PC focused)
Day 6 - Abs/Accessory/Conditioning

Or if he wants to continue with a PPL:
Week 1 - strength days - bench, squat, rows (+ a little bit of strength focused assistance work and prehab for each day)
- hypertrophy days - shoulders/tris, hams/calves, vert pulls/bis
Week 2 - strength days - OHP, DL, weighted pullups (+ assistance)
- hypertrophy days - chest/tris, quads/calves, horiz pulls/bis[/quote]
Looks good. There are lots of ways to do this as long as objectives are clearly defined.

Note: You and I may have a completely different definition of “strength” work but I don’t think it would be worthwhile to get into that discussion here so lets just leave it as “progressing with heavy weights”.

[Apoklyps]

Arguing “strength” vs “load progression” is semantics, which I agree isn’t a worthwhile discussion to have here. It still doesn’t explain why you feel that the value in using such a training style for skullcrushers outweighs the risks to his elbows.

Sure he’ll progress on his OHP at his level. Until his beginner gains are done with. After that, you’ve put the OHP, typically the slowest progressing lift in the linear progression schemes listed, as his 3rd heavy upper body push movement. It’ll probably stall out just when he’s progressed enough to start seeing some real progress on his bench with whatever linear progression scheme he’s using. Especially since it has so little emphasis/volume here, and is quite technical. I don’t really see the reasoning behind setting it up like this and I can guarantee that the OHP will be the first thing to stall and will hold him back.

[lift206]

One last suggestion to the OP is to really push to get the volume up over time. A fun way is to push for PRs with volume work nearly every session. Here’s an example for 8 sessions of reverse grip curls that I have tried and found as a great way to progress: 3x10x35, 2x15x35, 1x25x35, 3x13x35, 2x18x35, 1x26x35, 3x18x35, 2x20x35, etc. When you feel like adding weight start over and continue to hit some volume PRs for your 3 set, 2 set and 1 set days. You can add weight or change exercises. The weight should be light enough to allow room for growth and minimize impact on recovery. Hitting volume PRs every session can be very motivating as well.

The main objective is to create a trend with higher volume over time and you’ll start packing on mass if you eat for it. Put in the effort to do the volume work instead of mindlessly doing 3x10 with the same weight every session.

If you try this for every exercise and can’t recover then you may have to cut down on the number of exercises to keep the progression going.

[dt79]

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
Arguing “strength” vs “load progression” is semantics, which I agree isn’t a worthwhile discussion to have here. [/quote]

Strength involves skill perfection and adaptation to performing under maximal loads for a selected movement. Simply put, it is peaking in performance on the movement with the existing muscle he already has. If this is the goal, which I would advise against for a beginner since he lacks muscle mass and should be more concerned with building up a base of muscle, I would not recommend that he does anything I have written in this thread.

The goal is hypertrophy. Hypertrophy requires progression, whether it’s load lifted, increase in reps, amount of work done in the same time, increase in force applied(compensatory acceleration), making the intended muscle move more of the same load with an increase in mmc etc.

It still doesn’t explain why you feel that the value in using such a training style for skullcrushers outweighs the risks to his elbows.

I am not sure what you mean by training style. Pyramiding up to a top set is nothing new. Most accomplished bodybuilders I know train like this. This is not “strength training” as defined above. I wouldn’t tell someone to peak on incline bench, skullcrushers or dips. If his elbows really can’t take it, there is the option to do dips.

I have said many times that I modified his own program using his own choice of exercises to show how to train 6 days a week more effectively so it’s easier for him to process and implement. This is what I do if I want to educate someone and make sure he can adapt and implement his own things in the long run. I do not throw his work out and give him a completely different but “optimal” template.

Sure he’ll progress on his OHP at his level. Until his beginner gains are done with. After that, you’ve put the OHP, typically the slowest progressing lift in the linear progression schemes listed, as his 3rd heavy upper body push movement. It’ll probably stall out just when he’s progressed enough to start seeing some real progress on his bench with whatever linear progression scheme he’s using. Especially since it has so little emphasis/volume here, and is quite technical. I don’t really see the reasoning behind setting it up like this and I can guarantee that the OHP will be the first thing to stall and will hold him back.

I have said the goal is to ensure that he PUSHES HIMSELF to add weight or reps every week. It does not matter if he cannot add weight every week, it’s putting in maximal effort that matters. If he is eating in a caloric surplus I doubt he will stall completely.

Right now, you seem to be the one focused on minutia.

[Apoklyps]

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Right now, you seem to be the one focused on minutia.[/quote]

Uh yeah, since you took the time to specifically address this:

[quot]dt’s plan isn’t bad. Personally, I’d pick at some of the minutiae, but it’s a hell of a lot better than what the OP has laid out here.[/quote]

This wasn’t really a conversation I intended to have in the first place, nor was it one that I thought was right for this thread. Why do you think I never addressed the specifics of said minutiae in the first place?

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We are obviously of different schools of thought in our approaches. You would rather use examples to teach him a little about programming, and I favour telling people what to do. IMHO, trying to teach that before he’s got the basics of lifting down is trying to teach him to run before he can walk.

[dt79]

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. [/quote]
I will respectfully agree with this. (no sarcasm intended.)

[lift206]

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We are obviously of different schools of thought in our approaches. You would rather use examples to teach him a little about programming, and I favour telling people what to do. IMHO, trying to teach that before he’s got the basics of lifting down is trying to teach him to run before he can walk.[/quote]

Ultimately the OP will decide what he wants to do. I think it’s beneficial to provide both suggestions of how he can make his ideas work and also alternatives that meets his goals. He did eventually ask about a template and that’s why I provided one.

The reason I didn’t provide a template from the start was because the OP said he gained 30 lbs over the summer doing Starting Strength. I thought he chose those exercises and frequency to meet his goal of packing on mass, after having a bit of experience under his belt.

Providing both options so that he can think about what he does can help him better make decisions in the future. In some cases people will over-analyze and they just need everything written out for them, but I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt here. The OP definitely has the information he needs now.

So although you both agree to disagree, you’re both still providing valuable contribution to the forum.

[dt79]

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. We are obviously of different schools of thought in our approaches. You would rather use examples to teach him a little about programming, and I favour telling people what to do. IMHO, trying to teach that before he’s got the basics of lifting down is trying to teach him to run before he can walk.[/quote]

Ultimately the OP will decide what he wants to do. I think it’s beneficial to provide both suggestions of how he can make his ideas work and also alternatives that meets his goals. He did eventually ask about a template and that’s why I provided one.

The reason I didn’t provide a template from the start was because the OP said he gained 30 lbs over the summer doing Starting Strength. I thought he chose those exercises and frequency to meet his goal of packing on mass, after having a bit of experience under his belt.

Providing both options so that he can think about what he does can help him better make decisions in the future. In some cases people will over-analyze and they just need everything written out for them, but I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt here. The OP definitely has the information he needs now.[/quote]
Spot on.

So although you both agree to disagree, you’re both still providing valuable contribution to the forum.

Thanks.

[Ynot_6]

Hey guys, thank you all for your help and advice. It’s really appreciated.

I’m still looking at the programs you guys have recommended me. However, I am starting to understand what you guys are getting at with the different rep ranges and volume for strength vs. hypertrophy.

This causes me to have the question, would it be smart for me to train almost exclusively for strength on the compound lifts and hypertrophy on the accessory exercises? Or should I aim for something else?

I still feel like I am somewhat in noob gain region, so should I be aiming mostly for strength or is hypertrophy okay to start incorporating more?

[JFG]

[quote]Ynot_6 wrote:

[quote]JFG wrote:
I personally hate your split. 4 chest exercise, 4 back, 1 leg (ok, 1.5 with the curls), 2 calf. Very imbalanced.

I would just find a trainer (Wendler, Ct, Waterbury, etc) that I can relate to, do the program as written for at least 6 months and re-evaluate then.

It is only complicated when you read all the articles and try to incorporate all. Just start today with a program and learn. Don’t mix, just do.

Are you certain you are getting 2600 calories or are you just guessing? And seriously, why no vegetables? Other meats?

Good luck[/quote]

Sorry, coach!

I honestly hate vegetables, but I know I should eat more so I am trying/looking around. Do you recommend any good ones to fit into my diet?

Also, do you have any recommendations for what I can change in my routine?

And yeah I have it all written down and calculated so I eat about 2600 cals a day right now. I know my diet needs some refinement though.
[/quote]
You are not 12. Eat your damn veggies. All of them. The greener, the better. Nothing wrong with then rest. Just keep the majority green.

I already commented on a routine. Pick a coach and do it, as is, for 4-6 months.

Yes, your diet needs refinement.

[dt79]

[quote]Ynot_6 wrote:
Hey guys, thank you all for your help and advice. It’s really appreciated.

I’m still looking at the programs you guys have recommended me. However, I am starting to understand what you guys are getting at with the different rep ranges and volume for strength vs. hypertrophy.

This causes me to have the question, would it be smart for me to train almost exclusively for strength on the compound lifts and hypertrophy on the accessory exercises? Or should I aim for something else?

I still feel like I am somewhat in noob gain region, so should I be aiming mostly for strength or is hypertrophy okay to start incorporating more?[/quote]
You should be increasing or trying to increase the weight or reps on your exercises every week while getting in enough volume. Constantly progressing in some way to give your muscles a reason to grow while in a caloric excess.

It is as simple as that. The discussions were about how to train for multiple days a week without burning out, that’s all. You will get similar results either way.

DO NOT start thinking about of strength vs hypertrophy training and “optimal rep ranges”.

*This is exactly why I refrain from writing the words “strength” and “hypertrophy”.

[Apoklyps]

[quote]JFG wrote:

I already commented on a routine. Pick a coach and do it, as is, for 4-6 months.

[/quote]

I agree with this. Feel free to post whatever you pick if you want us to take a look at it. IMO, the first step is learning how to do it right. After you figure that out, it’s time to learn why you did it right.

[Ynot_6]

Alright, well after looking through the trainers you guys recommended, I liked some of the Waterbury articles that I read.

Is this the program that I should give a try?

https://www.T-Nation.com/workouts/Waterbury-method

Or is there another one you guys were talking about that I missed?

[lift206]

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Ynot_6 wrote:
Hey guys, thank you all for your help and advice. It’s really appreciated.

I’m still looking at the programs you guys have recommended me. However, I am starting to understand what you guys are getting at with the different rep ranges and volume for strength vs. hypertrophy.

This causes me to have the question, would it be smart for me to train almost exclusively for strength on the compound lifts and hypertrophy on the accessory exercises? Or should I aim for something else?

I still feel like I am somewhat in noob gain region, so should I be aiming mostly for strength or is hypertrophy okay to start incorporating more?[/quote]

You should be increasing or trying to increase the weight or reps on your exercises every week while getting in enough volume. Constantly progressing in some way to give your muscles a reason to grow while in a caloric excess.

It is as simple as that. The discussions were about how to train for multiple days a week without burning out, that’s all. You will get similar results either way.

DO NOT start thinking about of strength vs hypertrophy training and “optimal rep ranges”.

*This is exactly why I refrain from writing the words “strength” and “hypertrophy”.
[/quote]

I see what you mean and it seems like there’s a misunderstanding in how those words are used. I’ll attempt to explain it for the OP. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong or any details should be clarified.

The OP thinks that any type of heavy compound movement is “strength” work and any type of lighter/accessory work is “hypertrophy” work. That isn’t exactly how you define it and I agree. We’re using the words to describe phases in training.

I would describe them as 3 somewhat distinct phases:

1. The hypertrophy phase is purposefully increasing workload to force the body to adapt to the continual increase in fatigue. This is where we want fatigue to increase and our recovery keeps up with or exceeds it to adapt to it in order to get bigger and stronger.

2. I would describe a hypertrophy/strength phase as workload and fatigue remaining about the same or slighlty increasing/decreasing. This is a grey area in between distinct hypertrophy and strength phases. The goal is to work with heavier weights although fatigue management isn’t really a priority. Mixing up intensity prevents stagnation and lighter weights feel easy when dropping back down to it.

3. A pure strength phase involves strategically managing and reducing fatigue significantly while working with very heavy weights in order to peak for maximal strength, e.g., competition.

All these phases can contain heavy (what the OP is considering strength work), medium and light work because all types can get you bigger and stronger. As far as the OP is concerned, he should stay in the hypertrophy and hypertrophy/strength phases for as long as possible because this is where he gets bigger and stronger. Taking a short deload is enough time to reduce fatigue, after beginning to stagnate in phases 1 and 2, to go back into them to continue the building process. Most programs out there especially for beginners really only involve the first two phases and there doesn’t have to be a specific order for them. A pure strength phase is really only needed for people competing or are significantly stronger where the time spent in this phase allows for a much longer time away from higher workloads because a short deload is not enough.

I have personally tried to stay in phases 1 and 2 without going into 3 by only taking 1-2 weeks off and it simply wasn’t enough time to reduce the fatigue. If I didn’t need to periodize through phase 3, I wouldn’t do it unless I had a competition coming up. Phases 1 and 2 are the moneymakers for beginners.

[lift206]

[quote]Ynot_6 wrote:
Alright, well after looking through the trainers you guys recommended, I liked some of the Waterbury articles that I read.

Is this the program that I should give a try?

https://www.T-Nation.com/workouts/Waterbury-method

Or is there another one you guys were talking about that I missed?[/quote]

Do any program that allows you to work hard. Hopefully the previous post clarifies what you need to do.

[Yogi1]

do this:

-5/3/1 (google it, or even better, buy the book. Just the original, none of the newer, fancier ones)
-do 5/3/1 for the next year, unwaveringly
-eat 1g of protein per pound of your bodyweight (but only 1 shake a day)
-get all your carbs from either rice or potatoes
-get plenty healthy fats (fatty meats, nuts, avocado, olive oil etc)
-eat your vegetables, young man
-make sure every meal has protein, carbs and fats (I don’t care about the composition of each)
-eat big fucking meals!
-eat fast food once or twice a week for the extra calories (90% of your diet will be clean, so don’t freak out about getting fat)
-live long, prosper

You’re at the stage where you can get away with keeping it very simple indeed so enjoy that

[T3hPwnisher]

[quote]Yogi wrote:
do this:

-5/3/1 (google it, or even better, buy the book. Just the original, none of the newer, fancier ones)
-do 5/3/1 for the next year, unwaveringly
-eat 1g of protein per pound of your bodyweight (but only 1 shake a day)
-get all your carbs from either rice or potatoes
-get plenty healthy fats (fatty meats, nuts, avocado, olive oil etc)
-eat your vegetables, young man
-make sure every meal has protein, carbs and fats (I don’t care about the composition of each)
-eat big fucking meals!
-eat fast food once or twice a week for the extra calories (90% of your diet will be clean, so don’t freak out about getting fat)
-live long, prosper

You’re at the stage where you can get away with keeping it very simple indeed so enjoy that[/quote]

Amazing advice. I wish I had done this when I started out.

[Apoklyps]

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]Ynot_6 wrote:
Hey guys, thank you all for your help and advice. It’s really appreciated.

I’m still looking at the programs you guys have recommended me. However, I am starting to understand what you guys are getting at with the different rep ranges and volume for strength vs. hypertrophy.

This causes me to have the question, would it be smart for me to train almost exclusively for strength on the compound lifts and hypertrophy on the accessory exercises? Or should I aim for something else?

I still feel like I am somewhat in noob gain region, so should I be aiming mostly for strength or is hypertrophy okay to start incorporating more?[/quote]

You should be increasing or trying to increase the weight or reps on your exercises every week while getting in enough volume. Constantly progressing in some way to give your muscles a reason to grow while in a caloric excess.

It is as simple as that. The discussions were about how to train for multiple days a week without burning out, that’s all. You will get similar results either way.

DO NOT start thinking about of strength vs hypertrophy training and “optimal rep ranges”.

*This is exactly why I refrain from writing the words “strength” and “hypertrophy”.
[/quote]

I see what you mean and it seems like there’s a misunderstanding in how those words are used. I’ll attempt to explain it for the OP. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong or any details should be clarified.

The OP thinks that any type of heavy compound movement is “strength” work and any type of lighter/accessory work is “hypertrophy” work. That isn’t exactly how you define it and I agree. We’re using the words to describe phases in training.

I would describe them as 3 somewhat distinct phases:

1. The hypertrophy phase is purposefully increasing workload to force the body to adapt to the continual increase in fatigue. This is where we want fatigue to increase and our recovery keeps up with or exceeds it to adapt to it in order to get bigger and stronger.

2. I would describe a hypertrophy/strength phase as workload and fatigue remaining about the same or slighlty increasing/decreasing. This is a grey area in between distinct hypertrophy and strength phases. The goal is to work with heavier weights although fatigue management isn’t really a priority. Mixing up intensity prevents stagnation and lighter weights feel easy when dropping back down to it.

3. A pure strength phase involves strategically managing and reducing fatigue significantly while working with very heavy weights in order to peak for maximal strength, e.g., competition.

All these phases can contain heavy (what the OP is considering strength work), medium and light work because all types can get you bigger and stronger. As far as the OP is concerned, he should stay in the hypertrophy and hypertrophy/strength phases for as long as possible because this is where he gets bigger and stronger. Taking a short deload is enough time to reduce fatigue, after beginning to stagnate in phases 1 and 2, to go back into them to continue the building process. Most programs out there especially for beginners really only involve the first two phases and there doesn’t have to be a specific order for them. A pure strength phase is really only needed for people competing or are significantly stronger where the time spent in this phase allows for a much longer time away from higher workloads because a short deload is not enough.

I have personally tried to stay in phases 1 and 2 without going into 3 by only taking 1-2 weeks off and it simply wasn’t enough time to reduce the fatigue. If I didn’t need to periodize through phase 3, I wouldn’t do it unless I had a competition coming up. Phases 1 and 2 are the moneymakers for beginners.[/quote]

This is where we have the mixup in definitions occurred earlier. When I say “strength phase”, I’m referring to a “strength building” phase, more akin to what you call “strength/hypertrophy”. What you call a “pure strength phase”, I would call a “peaking phase”.

OP, Waterbury’s program is pretty balanced. I’d probably switch out the decline bench for incline given your aesthetic goals. There are a few things though. If you’re out of your newb gains phase, working up to 87.5% of 1RM (about a 4RM of starting 1RM) for 10x3 with only a minute of rest in just 4 weeks is probably going to be brutally hard, unless you’re careful about what you input for a 1RM and really have your recovery down solid. It’s also only a 4 week program. Given the short nature of the program and the need for good recovery, it’s probably not the best choice for someone at your level.

Yogi’s advice is good stuff, and is reasonable, sustainable, and simple. After you’ve got your base down (know how to eat/rest/recover in general, are seeing consistent progress, are honest with yourself about lifting, and have developed consistent, safe, and purposeful technique on the big lifts), feel free to take a deload and give Waterbury’s 4-weeker a try! Haven’t tried it myself, but looking at it, I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.

[lift206]

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
This is where we have the mixup in definitions occurred earlier. When I say “strength phase”, I’m referring to a “strength building” phase, more akin to what you call “strength/hypertrophy”. What you call a “pure strength phase”, I would call a “peaking phase”.

OP, Waterbury’s program is pretty balanced. I’d probably switch out the decline bench for incline given your aesthetic goals. There are a few things though. If you’re out of your newb gains phase, working up to 87.5% of 1RM (about a 4RM of starting 1RM) for 10x3 with only a minute of rest in just 4 weeks is probably going to be brutally hard, unless you’re careful about what you input for a 1RM and really have your recovery down solid. It’s also only a 4 week program. Given the short nature of the program and the need for good recovery, it’s probably not the best choice for someone at your level.

Yogi’s advice is good stuff, and is reasonable, sustainable, and simple. After you’ve got your base down (know how to eat/rest/recover in general, are seeing consistent progress, are honest with yourself about lifting, and have developed consistent, safe, and purposeful technique on the big lifts), feel free to take a deload and give Waterbury’s 4-weeker a try! Haven’t tried it myself, but looking at it, I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.[/quote]

Yeah, forget what I said. I thought about it and the approach I laid out is specific to how I train. Aside from semantics, it’s just a general progression and a specific progression. There are many variables that can be used for progression and for peaking but knowing all that is unnecessary at this point.

OP- keep it simple and stick with Yogi’s advice or Waterbury’s program. The uncertainty in your post sounds like you just have to stick with something sound and learn a bit more before experimenting.

[JFG]

[quote]Yogi wrote:
do this:

-Chad Waterbury’s “Muscle Revolution” (google it, or even better, buy the book.)
-do the template he recommends for your goal for the next year, unwaveringly
-eat 1g of protein per pound of your bodyweight (but only 1 shake a day)
-get all your carbs from either rice or potatoes
-get plenty healthy fats (fatty meats, nuts, avocado, olive oil etc)
-eat your vegetables, young man
-make sure every meal has protein, carbs and fats (I don’t care about the composition of each)
-eat big fucking meals!
-eat fast food once a week for the extra calories (90% of your diet will be clean, so don’t freak out about getting fat)
-live long, prosper

You are always at a stage where you can get away with keeping it very simple indeed so enjoy that[/quote]
Fixed