[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
mbdix -
ok, no bullshit. What would have to happen for you to say, “ah shit, I was wrong about Manziel”?
Because if the only way you’ll be convinced that he’s a bust is if he starts 16 games for each of the 32 teams and then, and only then, will you admit he can’t make it in the NFL, then this is a silly conversation.
So, what’s the hurdle?[/quote]
Well the hurdle cant be to tall, JF can only jump so high
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
Well the hurdle cant be to tall, JF can only jump so high[/quote]
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
mbdix -
ok, no bullshit. What would have to happen for you to say, “ah shit, I was wrong about Manziel”?
Because if the only way you’ll be convinced that he’s a bust is if he starts 16 games for each of the 32 teams and then, and only then, will you admit he can’t make it in the NFL, then this is a silly conversation.
So, what’s the hurdle?[/quote]
That’s hard for me to answer because I honestly can’t see it happening. It’s a no brainer in my opinion. Especially after what he did this off-season. Checking himself into rehab.
He would have to be out of football without accomplishing anything honestly.
But, for the sake of T-Nation and some history of friendly wagers on here, I will make a deal with you. If Manziel doesn’t see the field this year and have at least one game where you say he looked really good and you can’t honestly see why I think he is a special talent then I will call him a bust for now.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
mbdix -
ok, no bullshit. What would have to happen for you to say, “ah shit, I was wrong about Manziel”?
Because if the only way you’ll be convinced that he’s a bust is if he starts 16 games for each of the 32 teams and then, and only then, will you admit he can’t make it in the NFL, then this is a silly conversation.
So, what’s the hurdle?[/quote]
Well the hurdle cant be to tall, JF can only jump so high[/quote]
He can dunk at 6 ft. A hurdle isn’t shit for Manziel
Johnny Football is seven feet tall!
Kills men by the hundreds. And if HE were here, he’d consume the Ravens with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his arse.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Johnny Football is seven feet tall!
Kills men by the hundreds. And if HE were here, he’d consume the Ravens with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his arse.[/quote]
haha. Nice
[quote]mbdix wrote:
But, for the sake of T-Nation and some history of friendly wagers on here, I will make a deal with you. If Manziel doesn’t see the field this year and have at least one game where you say he looked really good and you can’t honestly see why I think he is a special talent then I will call him a bust for now.[/quote]
I’m the wrong guy to bet with as I’m not anti-Manziel - I haven’t said a bad thing about him the entire thread - but I’m struggling to see what you see in him which is why I’m asking so many questions.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
But, for the sake of T-Nation and some history of friendly wagers on here, I will make a deal with you. If Manziel doesn’t see the field this year and have at least one game where you say he looked really good and you can’t honestly see why I think he is a special talent then I will call him a bust for now.[/quote]
I’m the wrong guy to bet with as I’m not anti-Manziel - I haven’t said a bad thing about him the entire thread - but I’m struggling to see what you see in him which is why I’m asking so many questions.
[/quote]
My bad Doc.
If I had to describe how I see Manziel’s game being in the very near future, it would be a combination of Brees, and Vick (in his prime) Vick has a faster top speed, but Manziel has more moves and elusiveness. I think he will be making those sports center type plays that Vick did with his feet, but also throwing the ball to all his receivers accurately.
The people on here that are saying he just through it up to Evens every play are funny to me. He did have some plays here and there in his two year college career where you could say he just through it up, but far more plays where he put the ball on the money.
Just wait, you will all see it soon enough.
It’s hard to compare Manziel with any other QB’s in the league because there really aren’t any similar ones around. Young Vick was faster and stronger with a bigger Arm, young Brees struggled for 3 years even with LT in his backfield, Russel Wilson is a talented game manager that happened to stumble into a team with a strong D and a rock solid running game, two things that create opportunities for QB’s. Manziel plays in one of the worst situations in the NFL, the ownership blows, the coach is new and terrified of looking uncertain, and he has no running game or receiving threats to speak of, the defense is solid against the pass because of Joe Haden and Gipson, and because the run defense is so awful, why throw.
Give Manziel some playmakers and some chances, then if he fails call him a bust, but seriously two games? Clearly he’s an unknown, but he may end up being a Fran Tarkenton type of scrambling hurler, good plays bad plays a few too many turnovers followed by a "wow did you see that "moment. I wouldn’t want him QB’ing my team, but hey it’s the Browns, what are there other options. It’s not like SUper Bowl or Bust was their Mantra.
[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
It’s hard to compare Manziel with any other QB’s in the league because there really aren’t any similar ones around. Young Vick was faster and stronger with a bigger Arm, young Brees struggled for 3 years even with LT in his backfield, Russel Wilson is a talented game manager that happened to stumble into a team with a strong D and a rock solid running game, two things that create opportunities for QB’s. Manziel plays in one of the worst situations in the NFL, the ownership blows, the coach is new and terrified of looking uncertain, and he has no running game or receiving threats to speak of, the defense is solid against the pass because of Joe Haden and Gipson, and because the run defense is so awful, why throw.
Give Manziel some playmakers and some chances, then if he fails call him a bust, but seriously two games? Clearly he’s an unknown, but he may end up being a Fran Tarkenton type of scrambling hurler, good plays bad plays a few too many turnovers followed by a "wow did you see that "moment. I wouldn’t want him QB’ing my team, but hey it’s the Browns, what are there other options. It’s not like SUper Bowl or Bust was their Mantra.[/quote]
This post makes me believe you know what you are talking about. I just feel that your prediction is a worse case scenario. I can see it as a possibilty, but I expect much more.
Watching him play, I believe the game moves slow to him. He is seeing things happen and reacting quicker than anyone else on the field.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
It’s hard to compare Manziel with any other QB’s in the league because there really aren’t any similar ones around. Young Vick was faster and stronger with a bigger Arm, young Brees struggled for 3 years even with LT in his backfield, Russel Wilson is a talented game manager that happened to stumble into a team with a strong D and a rock solid running game, two things that create opportunities for QB’s. Manziel plays in one of the worst situations in the NFL, the ownership blows, the coach is new and terrified of looking uncertain, and he has no running game or receiving threats to speak of, the defense is solid against the pass because of Joe Haden and Gipson, and because the run defense is so awful, why throw.
Give Manziel some playmakers and some chances, then if he fails call him a bust, but seriously two games? Clearly he’s an unknown, but he may end up being a Fran Tarkenton type of scrambling hurler, good plays bad plays a few too many turnovers followed by a "wow did you see that "moment. I wouldn’t want him QB’ing my team, but hey it’s the Browns, what are there other options. It’s not like SUper Bowl or Bust was their Mantra.[/quote]
This post makes me believe you know what you are talking about. I just feel that your prediction is a worse case scenario. I can see it as a possibilty, but I expect much more.
Watching him play, I believe the game moves slow to him. He is seeing things happen and reacting quicker than anyone else on the field. [/quote]
The two games in college that Manziel had to deal with the most team speed, he folded epically. LSU made him look silly his freshman year, and then a much depleted LSU team still made him look relatively pedestrian his sophomore year. Not saying they are the best team in the country but LSU of those times was probable the most athletic front 7 out there and he couldn’t handle the speed of the game (still slower than the NFL) at all. He totally blew up the first time and that’s what he will look like in the NFL.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
It’s hard to compare Manziel with any other QB’s in the league because there really aren’t any similar ones around. Young Vick was faster and stronger with a bigger Arm, young Brees struggled for 3 years even with LT in his backfield, Russel Wilson is a talented game manager that happened to stumble into a team with a strong D and a rock solid running game, two things that create opportunities for QB’s. Manziel plays in one of the worst situations in the NFL, the ownership blows, the coach is new and terrified of looking uncertain, and he has no running game or receiving threats to speak of, the defense is solid against the pass because of Joe Haden and Gipson, and because the run defense is so awful, why throw.
Give Manziel some playmakers and some chances, then if he fails call him a bust, but seriously two games? Clearly he’s an unknown, but he may end up being a Fran Tarkenton type of scrambling hurler, good plays bad plays a few too many turnovers followed by a "wow did you see that "moment. I wouldn’t want him QB’ing my team, but hey it’s the Browns, what are there other options. It’s not like SUper Bowl or Bust was their Mantra.[/quote]
This post makes me believe you know what you are talking about. I just feel that your prediction is a worse case scenario. I can see it as a possibilty, but I expect much more.
Watching him play, I believe the game moves slow to him. He is seeing things happen and reacting quicker than anyone else on the field. [/quote]
The two games in college that Manziel had to deal with the most team speed, he folded epically. LSU made him look silly his freshman year, and then a much depleted LSU team still made him look relatively pedestrian his sophomore year. Not saying they are the best team in the country but LSU of those times was probable the most athletic front 7 out there and he couldn’t handle the speed of the game (still slower than the NFL) at all. He totally blew up the first time and that’s what he will look like in the NFL. [/quote]
Mbdix,
Well Tarkenton is in the HOF so that’s not really a worse case scenario, a worse case scenario is a drug problem, rehab and a lifetime ban. I am actually a Manziel fan, I want him to succeed, I just don’t know if Cleveland is the right place, and regardless of his physical tools (NFL players have done far more with far less i.e. Sam Mills, Wes Welker, Wayne Chrebet, John Randle etc) I wonder about how his mind handles the negative pushback from fans and foes alike. I still think if he has playmakers and some freedom to improvise he can be a solid starter in the NFL, but the game speed at the NFL level will stop him from looking like he did in college.
jbpick,
Speed is the issue, I think you’re right about that, a lot of those deep floaters to Evans would be picked off in the NFL, and his ability to scramble will be hampered by DE’s that are faster than he is. I do think his playmaking ability is more innate than learned, so if he has some guys that can keep the defense backpedaling he will be much more productive with his arms and feet. I do think he needs a chance, they spent a 1st round pick on him and then started Hoyer, who is nothing more than a placeholder. If you look at who they could have drafted (Bridgewater, Carr, Benjamin, Matthews etc) they surely need some value out of him.
Texans on Hard Knocks.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
I believe the game moves slow to him. He is seeing things happen and reacting quicker than anyone else on the field. [/quote]
you have to be trolling, LOLLOLOLOL
[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]PonyWhisperer wrote:
It’s hard to compare Manziel with any other QB’s in the league because there really aren’t any similar ones around. Young Vick was faster and stronger with a bigger Arm, young Brees struggled for 3 years even with LT in his backfield, Russel Wilson is a talented game manager that happened to stumble into a team with a strong D and a rock solid running game, two things that create opportunities for QB’s. Manziel plays in one of the worst situations in the NFL, the ownership blows, the coach is new and terrified of looking uncertain, and he has no running game or receiving threats to speak of, the defense is solid against the pass because of Joe Haden and Gipson, and because the run defense is so awful, why throw.
Give Manziel some playmakers and some chances, then if he fails call him a bust, but seriously two games? Clearly he’s an unknown, but he may end up being a Fran Tarkenton type of scrambling hurler, good plays bad plays a few too many turnovers followed by a "wow did you see that "moment. I wouldn’t want him QB’ing my team, but hey it’s the Browns, what are there other options. It’s not like SUper Bowl or Bust was their Mantra.[/quote]
This post makes me believe you know what you are talking about. I just feel that your prediction is a worse case scenario. I can see it as a possibilty, but I expect much more.
Watching him play, I believe the game moves slow to him. He is seeing things happen and reacting quicker than anyone else on the field. [/quote]
The two games in college that Manziel had to deal with the most team speed, he folded epically. LSU made him look silly his freshman year, and then a much depleted LSU team still made him look relatively pedestrian his sophomore year. Not saying they are the best team in the country but LSU of those times was probable the most athletic front 7 out there and he couldn’t handle the speed of the game (still slower than the NFL) at all. He totally blew up the first time and that’s what he will look like in the NFL. [/quote]
Mbdix,
Well Tarkenton is in the HOF so that’s not really a worse case scenario, a worse case scenario is a drug problem, rehab and a lifetime ban. I am actually a Manziel fan, I want him to succeed, I just don’t know if Cleveland is the right place, and regardless of his physical tools (NFL players have done far more with far less i.e. Sam Mills, Wes Welker, Wayne Chrebet, John Randle etc) I wonder about how his mind handles the negative pushback from fans and foes alike. I still think if he has playmakers and some freedom to improvise he can be a solid starter in the NFL, but the game speed at the NFL level will stop him from looking like he did in college.
jbpick,
Speed is the issue, I think you’re right about that, a lot of those deep floaters to Evans would be picked off in the NFL, and his ability to scramble will be hampered by DE’s that are faster than he is. I do think his playmaking ability is more innate than learned, so if he has some guys that can keep the defense backpedaling he will be much more productive with his arms and feet. I do think he needs a chance, they spent a 1st round pick on him and then started Hoyer, who is nothing more than a placeholder. If you look at who they could have drafted (Bridgewater, Carr, Benjamin, Matthews etc) they surely need some value out of him.[/quote]
You are right about my worse case scenario comment. If you take away career ending injuries, possible NFL ban from playing. If Manziel is playing football and staying relatively healthy I think your description of how you think he will be in comparison to Tarkentan is the low end of the possibility curve.
He will throw some picks, no doubt. Everyone throws picks. But, the WOW did you see that will come multiple times a game.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
I believe the game moves slow to him. He is seeing things happen and reacting quicker than anyone else on the field. [/quote]
you have to be trolling, LOLLOLOLOL[/quote]
No dude, I am not trolling. I don’t think his physical speed makes the game slow for him, like it did for Vick in his prime, or speaking of prime, like it was for Primetime.
I am saying that when he recieves a visual stimulus he has a physical reaction, and makes adjustments quicker than everyone else on the field. Not in some superpower way, but in a way that is noticeable when you watch tape on him. Some people call it Jedi like plays or magic plays. It’s not either of those. It’s just that those players brain and body are reacting quicker than the people around them and it looks different.
Like when Doogie said when he watched Manziel play his freshman year that he thought he looked scared and the worse QB that he had ever seen. The reason why it looked like that to Doogie is because he doesn’t understand what he is seeing. (No offense Doogie) Manziel was the first freshman to ever win the heisman and he won the best QB in college award as well. Either that year or the next, I can’t remember.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
I believe the game moves slow to him. He is seeing things happen and reacting quicker than anyone else on the field. [/quote]
you have to be trolling, LOLLOLOLOL[/quote]
No dude, I am not trolling. I don’t think his physical speed makes the game slow for him, like it did for Vick in his prime, or speaking of prime, like it was for Primetime.
I am saying that when he recieves a visual stimulus he has a physical reaction, and makes adjustments quicker than everyone else on the field. Not in some superpower way, but in a way that is noticeable when you watch tape on him. Some people call it Jedi like plays or magic plays. It’s not either of those. It’s just that those players brain and body are reacting quicker than the people around them and it looks different.
Like when Doogie said when he watched Manziel play his freshman year that he thought he looked scared and the worse QB that he had ever seen. The reason why it looked like that to Doogie is because he doesn’t understand what he is seeing. (No offense Doogie) Manziel was the first freshman to ever win the heisman and he won the best QB in college award as well. Either that year or the next, I can’t remember.[/quote]
I have to say, if watched him in college and thought, this kid is reacting faster than every player on the field, that’s why he’s running outside the pocket to the sideline before throwing a jump ball to Evans with very little pressure, then I have to conclude that it is you who has no clue what he’s looking at.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
I believe the game moves slow to him. He is seeing things happen and reacting quicker than anyone else on the field. [/quote]
you have to be trolling, LOLLOLOLOL[/quote]
No dude, I am not trolling. I don’t think his physical speed makes the game slow for him, like it did for Vick in his prime, or speaking of prime, like it was for Primetime.
I am saying that when he recieves a visual stimulus he has a physical reaction, and makes adjustments quicker than everyone else on the field. Not in some superpower way, but in a way that is noticeable when you watch tape on him. Some people call it Jedi like plays or magic plays. It’s not either of those. It’s just that those players brain and body are reacting quicker than the people around them and it looks different.
Like when Doogie said when he watched Manziel play his freshman year that he thought he looked scared and the worse QB that he had ever seen. The reason why it looked like that to Doogie is because he doesn’t understand what he is seeing. (No offense Doogie) Manziel was the first freshman to ever win the heisman and he won the best QB in college award as well. Either that year or the next, I can’t remember.[/quote]
He threw the ball 35 times last season…
so he’s some kind of football savant, got it.
I’d like to thank the PonyWhisperer for bringing some common sense to this thread. Most of you guys do nothing but step on your own dicks. Lack of knowledge & diarrhea of the mouth has stunk this thread up.