2010 NBA Playoffs

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201

[quote]drewh wrote:

[quote]kheaslim wrote:
I’m a Kobe fan and I appreciate LeBron and take nothing away from him. But lets not start talking about who’s better until Lebron does what Kobe has done.

I’m also shocked people think Kobe is more appreciated than Lebron!? Its the other way around in my experience. [/quote]

Currently Lebron James is a better player even if James wins 0-1 championships he will likely go down as being better than Kobe. Kobe had Shaq Bron doesn’t.[/quote]

If it’s the case where Lebron ends up his career with 0 to 1 championships, you will be in a very small minority to consider him the better player. Wilt Chamberlain was one of the most physically dominating centers of all time but he still pales in comparison to Bill Russell. Why? Because Bill Russell won a lot more championships. Simple fact.

Let’s say LeBron ends up with no championships at the end of his career (highly unlikely). It will be the yeah but conversation. Man he was one of the most talented players of all time but he couldn’t win the big one. Or man, he won one but Kobe won 6 championships. I have a hard time on that fact alone to say LeBron > Kobe.

202

[quote]drewh wrote:

[quote]kheaslim wrote:
I’m a Kobe fan and I appreciate LeBron and take nothing away from him. But lets not start talking about who’s better until Lebron does what Kobe has done.

I’m also shocked people think Kobe is more appreciated than Lebron!? Its the other way around in my experience. [/quote]

Currently Lebron James is a better player even if James wins 0-1 championships he will likely go down as being better than Kobe. Kobe had Shaq Bron doesn’t.[/quote]

I coulda swore Lebron was on the same team as Shaq! I must be confused

203

[quote]AndrewG909 wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:

[quote]kheaslim wrote:
I’m a Kobe fan and I appreciate LeBron and take nothing away from him. But lets not start talking about who’s better until Lebron does what Kobe has done.

I’m also shocked people think Kobe is more appreciated than Lebron!? Its the other way around in my experience. [/quote]

Currently Lebron James is a better player even if James wins 0-1 championships he will likely go down as being better than Kobe. Kobe had Shaq Bron doesn’t.[/quote]

I coulda swore Lebron was on the same team as Shaq! I must be confused[/quote]

Let’s be honest now, that’s not “Shaq.” I’d be willing to guarentee a 3peat just the same as “Shaq” and Kobe had. This Shaquille O’Neal dude on the court now though is a shadow of him former self. #34 > #33.

204

Yawn only a dumbass won’t admit that if LBJ continues he will at least be top three. This is a different NBA than when Wilt and Bill played. Lebron will finish his career with at least 5 MVP’s and a slew of recored that puts him above Kobe. Do you guys forget who the MVP was in all those Laker finals excluding last season. It’s like Dwight and LBJ playing on the same team they would be unstoppable.

205

Lebron MIGHT go down as the better player when its said and done, but then again, so might Kobe.

So far its Kobe. Yes, Lebron has more time, but so far its Kobe.

206

[quote]drewh wrote:
Yawn only a dumbass won’t admit that if LBJ continues he will at least be top three. This is a different NBA than when Wilt and Bill played. Lebron will finish his career with at least 5 MVP’s and a slew of recored that puts him above Kobe. Do you guys forget who the MVP was in all those Laker finals excluding last season. It’s like Dwight and LBJ playing on the same team they would be unstoppable.[/quote]

Only a dumbass that doesn’t really follow or understand the NBA would know that no matter how many individual accomplishments a player gets in a career, he will not be considered in the upper echelon of all time greats without championships. Are you actually arguing that he would be considered top three by the end of his career without a championship to his name?

If so, I’m not going to even bother debating this point with you.

207

[quote]drewh wrote:
Yawn only a dumbass won’t admit that if LBJ continues he will at least be top three. This is a different NBA than when Wilt and Bill played. Lebron will finish his career with at least 5 MVP’s and a slew of recored that puts him above Kobe. Do you guys forget who the MVP was in all those Laker finals excluding last season. It’s like Dwight and LBJ playing on the same team they would be unstoppable.[/quote]

And I’m so sick and tired of hearing yeah but Kobe had Shaq. Freaking Jordan had Pippen. You know, one of the 50 greatest players of all time ranked by all the analysts. Please…

208

[quote]randman wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:
Yawn only a dumbass won’t admit that if LBJ continues he will at least be top three. This is a different NBA than when Wilt and Bill played. Lebron will finish his career with at least 5 MVP’s and a slew of recored that puts him above Kobe. Do you guys forget who the MVP was in all those Laker finals excluding last season. It’s like Dwight and LBJ playing on the same team they would be unstoppable.[/quote]

Only a dumbass that doesn’t really follow or understand the NBA would know that no matter how many individual accomplishments a player gets in a career, he will not be considered in the upper echelon of all time greats without championships. Are you actually arguing that he would be considered top three by the end of his career without a championship to his name?

If so, I’m not going to even bother debating this point with you.[/quote]
Tell that to Barkley, Malone, Reggie, Stockton, Malone, Patrick Ewing. Dumb ass

209

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
If you asked me to give you three players that STAND OUT in the last 20 years I’d say: 1) MJ 2) Magic and 3) Lebron.

The reason a lot more people like Kobe compared to LeBron (making Lebron the subject of jokes and rhetoric of how Kobe dominates LeBron) is because Kobe hasn’t done anything except consistently talk with his play. You don’t see him in as many ads, out about in public and talking to the media. He’s a shy guy. He’s one of the best basketball players but thats it.

The guys I mentioned 1)2) and 3) just have something about them that makes them special. They’re multifaceted.

Shaq fits that category too. [/quote]

Dude, you really need to pay closer attention to the game. Magic retired almost 20 years ago and wasn’t the player in the 90’s that he was in the 80’s, so that’s out. Jordan was RETIRED for a 1/3rd of the decade, and Hakeem Olajuwon dominated the center position when it was at it’s most stacked point in league history. The 3 best players in the past 20 years would be Jordan, Olajuwon, Bryant. Shaq could probably be interchangeable with Dream if you really wanted. I’m trying to cut you some slack 'cause you’re overseas but you keep making some pretty boneheaded comments about the league, players, and basketball in general.[/quote]

Magic still had INFLUENCE in the 90s and Jordan dominated the 90s. LeBron/Kobe are dominating the 2000s but Kobe doesnt stand out as much as 'bron because he had Shaq for awhile and pretty much sucked (his team) until Gasol came.

You can say whatever you want about my opinion but theres no doubt LeBron is in the mix. To say its boneheaded I think is just being arrogant because you’re measuring it on your own opinion.

Basically what I’m getting at is Kobe fans need to start appreciating LeBron more. They taunt what they fear.
[/quote]

81 against Toronto. 62 in less than 3 quarters outscoring the entire Maverick team. 12 3’s in a game. Should I go on? Kobe Bryant is on a level that no one since Jordan has reached. LeBron James is what would happen if Karl Malone and Clyde Drexler had a baby. He doesn’t have near the basketball skill Bryant does nor is he as physically tough, and he gets away with more than anyone in the history of the game. The dude can play, and he’ll go down asone of the all-time greats, but he doesn’t have the killer instinct that Jordan nad Bryant have that put them on that next level, and that instinct is something you’re born with.

210

[quote]drewh wrote:

[quote]randman wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:
Yawn only a dumbass won’t admit that if LBJ continues he will at least be top three. This is a different NBA than when Wilt and Bill played. Lebron will finish his career with at least 5 MVP’s and a slew of recored that puts him above Kobe. Do you guys forget who the MVP was in all those Laker finals excluding last season. It’s like Dwight and LBJ playing on the same team they would be unstoppable.[/quote]

Only a dumbass that doesn’t really follow or understand the NBA would know that no matter how many individual accomplishments a player gets in a career, he will not be considered in the upper echelon of all time greats without championships. Are you actually arguing that he would be considered top three by the end of his career without a championship to his name?

If so, I’m not going to even bother debating this point with you.[/quote]
Tell that to Barkley, Malone, Reggie, Stockton, Malone, Patrick Ewing. Dumb ass[/quote]

Well you had said he would be top 3, and Randman said he would not be of the upper echelon of the great players without a ring. Meaning he will not be considered one of the best of the greats (top 3 as you stated). The players you mentioned will go down as great players, but top 3 greatest? Or the greatest of greatest?? No… Therefor the arguement still stands true that although you can be considered great without a ring, to be considered one of the alltime GREATEST you will be expected to have taken home a championship.

211

[quote]drewh wrote:

[quote]randman wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:
Yawn only a dumbass won’t admit that if LBJ continues he will at least be top three. This is a different NBA than when Wilt and Bill played. Lebron will finish his career with at least 5 MVP’s and a slew of recored that puts him above Kobe. Do you guys forget who the MVP was in all those Laker finals excluding last season. It’s like Dwight and LBJ playing on the same team they would be unstoppable.[/quote]

Only a dumbass that doesn’t really follow or understand the NBA would know that no matter how many individual accomplishments a player gets in a career, he will not be considered in the upper echelon of all time greats without championships. Are you actually arguing that he would be considered top three by the end of his career without a championship to his name?

If so, I’m not going to even bother debating this point with you.[/quote]
Tell that to Barkley, Malone, Reggie, Stockton, Malone, Patrick Ewing. Dumb ass[/quote]

Dude, you’re actually making yourself look more like a dumbass every time you post. All of those examples you used: Barkley, Malone, Reggie, Stockton, Ewing are considered great players by the masses but they are not considered the upper echelon.

Upper Echelon: Shaquille O’Neal, Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain (he actually did have 2 championships), Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Bill Russell, and Michael Jordan.

Do you know what all of these upper echelon players have in common? In almost all cases, they were great AND had multiple championships (with the exception of West with 1).

I’m willing to bet that you poll any NBA follower out there and overwhelming they’ll choose the group I just wrote over the ones you did. I feel like I’m debating with a one-handed clapper here.

212

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
If you asked me to give you three players that STAND OUT in the last 20 years I’d say: 1) MJ 2) Magic and 3) Lebron.

The reason a lot more people like Kobe compared to LeBron (making Lebron the subject of jokes and rhetoric of how Kobe dominates LeBron) is because Kobe hasn’t done anything except consistently talk with his play. You don’t see him in as many ads, out about in public and talking to the media. He’s a shy guy. He’s one of the best basketball players but thats it.

The guys I mentioned 1)2) and 3) just have something about them that makes them special. They’re multifaceted.

Shaq fits that category too. [/quote]

Dude, you really need to pay closer attention to the game. Magic retired almost 20 years ago and wasn’t the player in the 90’s that he was in the 80’s, so that’s out. Jordan was RETIRED for a 1/3rd of the decade, and Hakeem Olajuwon dominated the center position when it was at it’s most stacked point in league history. The 3 best players in the past 20 years would be Jordan, Olajuwon, Bryant. Shaq could probably be interchangeable with Dream if you really wanted. I’m trying to cut you some slack 'cause you’re overseas but you keep making some pretty boneheaded comments about the league, players, and basketball in general.[/quote]

Magic still had INFLUENCE in the 90s and Jordan dominated the 90s. LeBron/Kobe are dominating the 2000s but Kobe doesnt stand out as much as 'bron because he had Shaq for awhile and pretty much sucked (his team) until Gasol came.

You can say whatever you want about my opinion but theres no doubt LeBron is in the mix. To say its boneheaded I think is just being arrogant because you’re measuring it on your own opinion.

Basically what I’m getting at is Kobe fans need to start appreciating LeBron more. They taunt what they fear.
[/quote]

81 against Toronto. 62 in less than 3 quarters outscoring the entire Maverick team. 12 3’s in a game. Should I go on? Kobe Bryant is on a level that no one since Jordan has reached. LeBron James is what would happen if Karl Malone and Clyde Drexler had a baby. He doesn’t have near the basketball skill Bryant does nor is he as physically tough, and he gets away with more than anyone in the history of the game. The dude can play, and he’ll go down asone of the all-time greats, but he doesn’t have the killer instinct that Jordan nad Bryant have that put them on that next level, and that instinct is something you’re born with.[/quote]

Well said. LeBron still can be one of the all-time greats. It’s early in his career so we don’t know how it will play out yet. His potential is through the roof. No doubt about that. But the killer instinct thing is suspect. Although his physical God-given skills are like something I’ve never seen. I almost want to say he’s more of a cross between Jordan and Magic. Again, at the end of his career what will he have accomplished individually and from a team perspective (i.e. championships)? Only time will tell.

213

[quote]randman wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:

[quote]randman wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:
Yawn only a dumbass won’t admit that if LBJ continues he will at least be top three. This is a different NBA than when Wilt and Bill played. Lebron will finish his career with at least 5 MVP’s and a slew of recored that puts him above Kobe. Do you guys forget who the MVP was in all those Laker finals excluding last season. It’s like Dwight and LBJ playing on the same team they would be unstoppable.[/quote]

Only a dumbass that doesn’t really follow or understand the NBA would know that no matter how many individual accomplishments a player gets in a career, he will not be considered in the upper echelon of all time greats without championships. Are you actually arguing that he would be considered top three by the end of his career without a championship to his name?

If so, I’m not going to even bother debating this point with you.[/quote]
Tell that to Barkley, Malone, Reggie, Stockton, Malone, Patrick Ewing. Dumb ass[/quote]

Upper Echelon: Shaquille O’Neal, Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain (he actually did have 2 championships), Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Bill Russell, and Michael Jordan.
[/quote]

Randman, NO NO NO!!! you don’t understand. If any of the upper echelon players had another upper echelon player on their team when they won champions that negates their skill and they are no longer upper echelon!

So Kobe had Shaq so he can’t possibly be upper echelon even if he did win championships without him. Jerry West had Wilt Chamberlain so he’s DEFINITELY not upper echelon. And Magic had Kareem so he’s not upper echelon either. See how that works!

214

Aahh…I get it. The funny thing is, I aint going to deny Shaq’s physical dominance during those three back-to-back-to-back championships but a lot of people don’t realize that Kobe (especially for the last two) was also very dominant. Particularly the middle championship run where his Player Efficiency Rating was even greater than Shaq’s. A lot of people (including me) thought that was the first year he should have won the regular season MVP and the Finals MVP. Yes, he was that good in 2001. And on another note, you notice during that championship run that Phil Jackson would actually take Shaq out of the game to prevent Hack-A-Shaq and you know who took over in those critical moments with the game outcome undecided? Of course, Kobe!

215

Here’s the final verdict on Kobe. Even Bill Simmons who hates the Lakers and has hated Kobe from the get go is now coming around and willing to admit he fits in with the top ten players of all time. Again, can LeBron get there by the end of his career? Absolutely. But a lot of it will come down to championships. In no other sport can an individual have so much of an influence and a stamp on championships. Yes, they still need really good players around them but they do have a huge influence on the outcome of championships.

216

[quote]randman wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:

[quote]randman wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:
Yawn only a dumbass won’t admit that if LBJ continues he will at least be top three. This is a different NBA than when Wilt and Bill played. Lebron will finish his career with at least 5 MVP’s and a slew of recored that puts him above Kobe. Do you guys forget who the MVP was in all those Laker finals excluding last season. It’s like Dwight and LBJ playing on the same team they would be unstoppable.[/quote]

Only a dumbass that doesn’t really follow or understand the NBA would know that no matter how many individual accomplishments a player gets in a career, he will not be considered in the upper echelon of all time greats without championships. Are you actually arguing that he would be considered top three by the end of his career without a championship to his name?

If so, I’m not going to even bother debating this point with you.[/quote]
Tell that to Barkley, Malone, Reggie, Stockton, Malone, Patrick Ewing. Dumb ass[/quote]

Dude, you’re actually making yourself look more like a dumbass every time you post. All of those examples you used: Barkley, Malone, Reggie, Stockton, Ewing are considered great players by the masses but they are not considered the upper echelon.

Upper Echelon: Shaquille O’Neal, Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain (he actually did have 2 championships), Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Bill Russell, and Michael Jordan.

Do you know what all of these upper echelon players have in common? In almost all cases, they were great AND had multiple championships (with the exception of West with 1).

I’m willing to bet that you poll any NBA follower out there and overwhelming they’ll choose the group I just wrote over the ones you did. I feel like I’m debating with a one-handed clapper here.[/quote]

Dude what are you smoking Malone is considered the number two best power forward of all time by many. Reggie the greatest shooter. You need to stop sucking sports journalists dicks who come up with these bogus requirements. At the end of Bron’s career your gonna feel dumb because he will go down as top three period stop hanging on to Kobe let it go he was great one of the best ever, it’s a new era with a new best player.

217

Calling someone the best power forward or the best shooter is hugely different then calling them one of the best player of all time.

It’s like the people that are saying that Kevin Durant is better then Kobe because he’s a more efficient scorer and scores more points. But all that means is he’s efficient and scores more points, that does not make him a better player. Someone could be the BEST shooter by far of all time and still not be considered the BEST player of all time, why?? Just because you are great or the greatest of one aspect in basketball that does not make you the best in the game. It just means you are the best at that particular skill. Wilt Chamberlain is as far as I know is the only player to have an average of 50 ppg in the regular season, he was also the only person to ever score 100 points in one game. Yet many people still consider Jordan a better player, why is that?

218

[quote]drewh wrote:
Dude what are you smoking Malone is considered the number two best power forward of all time by many. Reggie the greatest shooter. You need to stop sucking sports journalists dicks who come up with these bogus requirements. At the end of Bron’s career your gonna feel dumb because he will go down as top three period stop hanging on to Kobe let it go he was great one of the best ever, it’s a new era with a new best player.[/quote]

Are you reading my posts? The number two best power forward is much different than one of the upper echelon players I just listed out. Malone doesn’t belong in that group. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. This has nothing to do with sports journalists. I’ll gladly open up this debate to the rest of T-Nation and other NBA followers. Let’s ask the general population here which list would they choose as upper echelon in all NBA history. Your list or mine.

219

[quote]AndrewG909 wrote:
Calling someone the best power forward or the best shooter is hugely different then calling them one of the best player of all time.

It’s like the people that are saying that Kevin Durant is better then Kobe because he’s a more efficient scorer and scores more points. But all that means is he’s efficient and scores more points, that does not make him a better player. Someone could be the BEST shooter by far of all time and still not be considered the BEST player of all time, why?? Just because you are great or the greatest of one aspect in basketball that does not make you the best in the game. It just means you are the best at that particular skill. Wilt Chamberlain is as far as I know is the only player to have an average of 50 ppg in the regular season, he was also the only person to ever score 100 points in one game. Yet many people still consider Jordan a better player, why is that?[/quote]

That’s what gets frustrating with debates like this. You have to educate the guy to try and let him know what he doesn’t even know. Especially when he’s acting like we’re out of touch with the NBA or something and we need to get with the times. It’s retarded…

And he’s the one calling me a dumbass…

220

^ wow wow wow!!! Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, just because you’re right that doesn’t mean you’re not a dummass!! Please realize the difference celtics lover. :wink:

But who really cares what may or may not happen in regards to who is better, whether lebron comes out on top or kobe does in the end that doesn’t mean shit to us fans, all we want is to watch great basketball and see who can come out on top this year. Who cares about 5 years from now, both players are 1 injury away from their careers being cut short. knock on wood so fk the stats and root for your team. Seems like any thread that even mentions nba turns into a kobe vs lebron debate these days. I’m sure the fans that don’t like either of them get tired of this endless debate. Lol