[quote]therajraj wrote:
Of course I compared them, when it comes to the MVP how can you not?
[/quote]
It’s a given centers are going to have a higher shooting percentage, that’s why not. That’s like faulting Rose for not having as many rebounds or blocked shots as Howard.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Of course I compared them, when it comes to the MVP how can you not?
[/quote]
It’s a given centers are going to have a higher shooting percentage, that’s why not. That’s like faulting Rose for not having as many rebounds or blocked shots as Howard.[/quote]
Or kinda like faulting Dwight for having less talented teammates and playing in a harder division?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
At his rate of efficiency? HELL NO. Dwight Howard draws a lot of double teams.
[/quote]
And on this point, look at all the top scorers throughout the years. A lot of them don’t have great teams to back them up and you can bet they’re getting tons of double teams. He should be getting more than 23 points a game even with the extra attention if he’s going to be the MVP.
Hollinger is an absolute idiot. Referencing him on ANYTHING weakens your argument, not strengthen it. I don’t even know how he has stayed employed with ESPN.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
At his rate of efficiency? HELL NO. Dwight Howard draws a lot of double teams.
[/quote]
And on this point, look at all the top scorers throughout the years. A lot of them don’t have great teams to back them up and you can bet they’re getting tons of double teams. He should be getting more than 23 points a game even with the extra attention if he’s going to be the MVP.[/quote]
Again, I don’t get this point. How does this matter for a SINGLE season award?
He should be only compared to how his peers are performing this season.
[quote]randman wrote:
Hollinger is an absolute idiot. Referencing him on ANYTHING weakens your argument, not strengthen it. I don’t even know how he has stayed employed with ESPN.[/quote]
I think he’s made some good points here regarding Dwight’s case for MVP.
But I disagree with stuff he says in general.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
So why can’t anyone clearly explain THE REASON(S) DH should be MVP over DRose? Seems like a lot of “I want to separate myself from the common opinion.” Scj just write one sentence answer why you think DH deserves the MVP over DRose. Heres mine season for the opposite: DRose has been the singular constant figure that is attributable to Chicago’s success, whose regular season record is BETTER than Orlando’s; a team that has been inconsistent all season long.
[/quote]
Thibodeau doesn’t count? They are still a damn good team when Rose is off the floor. They are the best defensive team in the league, and Boston (the other team who still employs his defense) is 2nd in the league. He is the unquestioned coach of the year.
Deng, Boozer, and Noah would ALL be the 2nd best player in Orlando. Orlando’s rotation is 8 below average defensive players plus Dwight, yet they are THIRD IN THE LEAGUE IN DEFENSE.
Oh and he scores nearly 25ppg on 60% shooting, is 2nd in the league in rebounding and blocked shots.
I’m a Bulls fan and I wish Rose would just STOP taking pull-up contested 3s. He is hurting his team especially when he can get into the lane any time he wants (I’m perfectly fine with him taking open threes, just stop that contested shit). He may have improved a lot but he’s still below average from behind the 3pt line.
[quote]randman wrote:
Hollinger is an absolute idiot. Referencing him on ANYTHING weakens your argument, not strengthen it. I don’t even know how he has stayed employed with ESPN.[/quote]
Hollinger is not an idiot. Lost in the stats he uses is the fact he watches a LOT of games and provides useful subjective commentary as well. Show me something he said you violently disagree with and I will take down your criticism.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Again, I don’t get this point. How does this matter for a SINGLE season award?
He should be only compared to how his peers are performing this season.[/quote]
That was in response to the argument whether a person on a shitty team should be getting better stats compared to a person on a team with other scorers and rebounders. I say when you’re the only really good player on your team, it’s easier to get higher stats. You disagree with this even though it’s been proven over the years. That was the point.
For the MVP, it’s comparing him against his peers AND what they have done for their teams. I’m not impressed with 10 games over .500 (not 21) and 8th best record in the league considering his stats. The guy isn’t even in the top 5 in scoring in a league of shitty centers. If he made top 3 in scoring, I’d consider him. He’s 10th.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
So why can’t anyone clearly explain THE REASON(S) DH should be MVP over DRose? Seems like a lot of “I want to separate myself from the common opinion.” Scj just write one sentence answer why you think DH deserves the MVP over DRose. Heres mine season for the opposite: DRose has been the singular constant figure that is attributable to Chicago’s success, whose regular season record is BETTER than Orlando’s; a team that has been inconsistent all season long.
[/quote]
Thibodeau doesn’t count? They are still a damn good team when Rose is off the floor. They are the best defensive team in the league, and Boston (the other team who still employs his defense) is 2nd in the league. He is the unquestioned coach of the year.
Deng, Boozer, and Noah would ALL be the 2nd best player in Orlando. Orlando’s rotation is 8 below average defensive players plus Dwight, yet they are THIRD IN THE LEAGUE IN DEFENSE.
Oh and he scores nearly 25ppg on 60% shooting, is 2nd in the league in rebounding and blocked shots.
I’m a Bulls fan and I wish Rose would just STOP taking pull-up contested 3s. He is hurting his team especially when he can get into the lane any time he wants (I’m perfectly fine with him taking open threes, just stop that contested shit). He may have improved a lot but he’s still below average from behind the 3pt line.[/quote]
People don’t realize how bad some of Dwight teammates are defensively. Just look at how bad Hedo’s D was exposed in his year in Toronto.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
lol - what bullshit. “it’s easier to get good stats when your team blows.” Lets not forget he’s shooting 60%… while your buddy Rose is shooting 47% on a much better team. Not exactly “easier” when your teammates suck.
[/quote]
Really? You’re arguing that it is not easier to get better stats when your teammates aren’t as good?
And please don’t tell me you just compared the shooting percentage of a point guard vs a center.[/quote]
At his rate of efficiency? HELL NO. Dwight Howard draws a lot of double teams.
Of course I compared them, when it comes to the MVP how can you not?
[/quote]
I agree DH is mvp but I do not agree with comparing their FG% (across different positions). Firstly, Rose takes threes and Dwight does not. Secondly, Dwight begins his offensive possessions by getting the ball within 10feet of the basket, Rose begins his from the opposite end of the court. The tradeoff in their fg% is offset by how much harder it is to get a DH field goal attempt than it is to get a DRose field goal attempt (you have to actually get the entry pass to him in the 3 seconds it takes to shove someone out of position; then he has to not be double-teamed).
I mean - if we’re going to compare them on 1 stat why not use assists? Or rebounds? Dumb comparison.
The only argument I see against Dwight is his ineffectiveness on the offensive side at the end of close games - an argument that in MY opinion is vastly overrated when it comes to determining MVP. Replace Dwight with any other player in the league and that game probably isn’t close in the last 5 minutes to begin with.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Again, I don’t get this point. How does this matter for a SINGLE season award?
He should be only compared to how his peers are performing this season.[/quote]
That was in response to the argument whether a person on a shitty team should be getting better stats compared to a person on a team with other scorers and rebounders. I say when you’re the only really good player on your team, it’s easier to get higher stats. You disagree with this even though it’s been proven over the years. That was the point.
For the MVP, it’s comparing him against his peers AND what they have done for their teams. I’m not impressed with 10 games over .500 (not 21) and 8th best record in the league considering his stats. The guy isn’t even in the top 5 in scoring in a league of shitty centers. If he made top 3 in scoring, I’d consider him. He’s 10th.
[/quote]
I’ve always defined “x games over .500” as how many more wins you have than losses.
I think you are under appreciating the defense aspect.
Also by your logic Lebron James should be the MVP because he has better stats and has to share the ball with another MVP candidate.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Again, I don’t get this point. How does this matter for a SINGLE season award?
He should be only compared to how his peers are performing this season.[/quote]
That was in response to the argument whether a person on a shitty team should be getting better stats compared to a person on a team with other scorers and rebounders. I say when you’re the only really good player on your team, it’s easier to get higher stats. You disagree with this even though it’s been proven over the years. That was the point.
For the MVP, it’s comparing him against his peers AND what they have done for their teams. I’m not impressed with 10 games over .500 (not 21) and 8th best record in the league considering his stats. The guy isn’t even in the top 5 in scoring in a league of shitty centers. If he made top 3 in scoring, I’d consider him. He’s 10th.
[/quote]
Yes it’s easier to get good stats on a bad team because other people don’t use as many possessions or get as many rebounds (leaving more shots/rebounds for you). But I don’t think Dwight should have to be top-5 in scoring considering he is the best defensive player in the league and that’s half the game.
That being said, LBJ has been pretty spectacular on D every game I’ve watched too. Rose is probably the weakest defensive player in the top-5 MVP candidates (even though I don’t think he’s below average) and that is one knock against his case. D is half the game!
how do the rest of you define games over .500?
Is it incorrect to say the Magic are 21 games over .500?
One last thing: Orlando is 2nd in the league in rebound rate (they grabbed 52% of all rebounds available in their games) despite having only one above average rebounder for his position (Dwight)
[quote]therajraj wrote:
how do the rest of you define games over .500?
Is it incorrect to say the Magic are 21 games over .500?[/quote]
I would call 51-30 21 games over .500 for the simple reason that it would take 21 consecutive losses to make them .500
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
how do the rest of you define games over .500?
Is it incorrect to say the Magic are 21 games over .500?[/quote]
I would call 51-30 21 games over .500 for the simple reason that it would take 21 consecutive losses to make them .500[/quote]
Exactly. I’ve never heard of anyone refer games over .500 in the manner Sam is .
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I think you are under appreciating the defense aspect.
Also by your logic Lebron James should be the MVP because he has better stats and has to share the ball with another MVP candidate.
[/quote]
Lebron is still a candidate. But I realize it’s not all stats. If the Heat took 1st place with the best record in the NBA, he’d get it. I think Rose is arguably a better pick.
As far as games over .500, I might be wrong but that’s the only way it makes sense to me.
[quote]Cuban32 wrote:
Ok, as a huge bulls fan I would love to see Rose get the MVP, however MVP MEANS MOST VALUABLE PLAYER!
Some people think that means, its the best player on the best team.
Some people think is the best player on a crappy team that helps them win more than they should.
Some people say is the best player on a CERTAIN team.
TO ME
MVP means, to me, the best player in the NBA statistically/eye test regardless of team, as much as I like Rose, that means Rose should not be MVP in my mind, that is why Dirk or Nash should not have been MVP either.
Jordan should have been MVP way more times according to my logic.
The MVP is Howard or Lebron James, I would probably say Lebron.
Then people would say, BUT HE HAS WADE and BOSH, he didnt have those two guys in Cleveland did he?, and he put up similar numbers.
MVP voting is flawed, there should be a more structured criteria.
If you go up to people and ask them if you were making an all star team and you had first pick who would it be? The answer is most likely who should be the MVP, i dont know many people that would say they would pick D Rose first.
Anyway,
CUBANS PREDICTIONS (MANY WILL NOT AGREE)
NBA Finals Bulls Vs. Lakers which is so appropriate because 20 years ago it was Bulls vs. Lakers in MJs first championship. We had Magic vs. Jordon, now we will have Kobe vs. Rose.[/quote]
I agree with a lot of this (I’d have LBJ 2nd on my ballot and Rose 3rd, so I can’t argue too much with LBJ pick). LBJ putting up those numbers again with 2 guys who need a lot of touches is pretty impressive, and he has been absolutely LOCKDOWN on d, moreso than ever. He’s always been a good help defender but IMO has been great on the ball this year.
The one thing I HATE about LBJ’s game is his steadfast refusal to post up, namely when PGs switch on him after screens. Every time he takes a jumper over Mo Williams, somewhere a baby dies.
I think Lakers Bulls would be a good series but (unfrotunately) think the Lake Show would take it in 7. Boozer has trouble scoring on 7’ guys. Rose would torch Fisher mercilessly but no one else would score easily. Actually it would probably be a low scoring series, I just think overall the Lakers’ top 6 > Bulls’ top 6 talent-wise. Next year however the tables will turn!
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]randman wrote:
Hollinger is an absolute idiot. Referencing him on ANYTHING weakens your argument, not strengthen it. I don’t even know how he has stayed employed with ESPN.[/quote]
Hollinger is not an idiot. Lost in the stats he uses is the fact he watches a LOT of games and provides useful subjective commentary as well. Show me something he said you violently disagree with and I will take down your criticism.[/quote]
His power rankings alone are worthless. I view him as writing provocative articles that are extremely subjective so people sign up and pay for the inside content.