20 Rep Squats

Bootsie · October 19, 2006, 1:44am

[quote]OneEye wrote:
TornadoTommy wrote:
Retarded? You call a training protocol that’s routinely proven to add 15-20 lbs. of bodyweight in just a few weeks retarded? I seriously doubt that you performed them with any significant poundage since it took you 3 sets to feel like you had done any work.

How about you try doing 1x20 with 50 lbs. more than your bwt. and then come back and say you needed 3 sets. That’s rock bottom squats, not merely parallel and not in a smith machine with a bench under your butt. I think you’ll find that your own GPP isn’t as good as you think. I squat 315 for 10 reps and 405 for for 3 reps (ATG) and the 230x20 I did today still made me light headed and out of breath.

You’re using 85 lbs less than you should be. I doubt the set is as hard as you think it is. Throw 315 on the bar if that’s your 10RM, and keep the bar on your back until you get all 20 reps. You won’t simply be “light headed and out of breath” if you do 20 rep squats the right way. You’ll wish you were dead.

Take as much time as you need between reps (after 8-10), breathe hard, and go for another rep. A set may take as long as 3-4 minutes. See if you can find the video of Jesse Marunde doing 407x20 and you’ll see what I mean.[/quote]

yep exactly. that weight you used is wayyy to light. I couldnt do 315x10 when i first started it, but used 225x20 to start. this wasnt to difficult, at first.

For you to be struggling at 230x20 something seems off. Not meant as a slam, but maybe your conditioning is bad or you never have trained high reps??

coolnatedawg · October 19, 2006, 2:04am

the craziest i have done was 25reps with about my 20rm. that was killer on set 2 and when i was done i had sweat everythin out of myself, felt like i was gonna hurl, and the next few minutes were a blur as i think i “blacked out”. im kinda intrigued to try this once i diet off some bulk weight…

veotis · October 19, 2006, 2:22am

[quote]suuuperdave wrote:
TornadoTommy wrote:
I’ve been contemplating 20 rep squats again. The first time, I bitched out on the 17th rep with 240. Not an excuse, but I was only about 140# bwt at that time. To this day, I regret not getting those last 3 reps. Tell you what rrjc, I’ll do the 20 rep routine also and maybe we can give each other encouragement/insults etc. I’m currently about 175# bwt. and will start training with 225# and should end up at 315#, which was my goal the first time. I’m officially challenging you to succeed!

I want to see 315 x 20. Heck, I’d even watch a video of 225 x 20.

[/quote]

Here is the link to all of those videos:
www.marunde-muscle.com/videos.html

TornadoTommy · October 19, 2006, 3:11am

[quote]OneEye wrote:
TornadoTommy wrote:
Retarded? You call a training protocol that’s routinely proven to add 15-20 lbs. of bodyweight in just a few weeks retarded? I seriously doubt that you performed them with any significant poundage since it took you 3 sets to feel like you had done any work.

How about you try doing 1x20 with 50 lbs. more than your bwt. and then come back and say you needed 3 sets. That’s rock bottom squats, not merely parallel and not in a smith machine with a bench under your butt. I think you’ll find that your own GPP isn’t as good as you think. I squat 315 for 10 reps and 405 for for 3 reps (ATG) and the 230x20 I did today still made me light headed and out of breath.

You’re using 85 lbs less than you should be. I doubt the set is as hard as you think it is. Throw 315 on the bar if that’s your 10RM, and keep the bar on your back until you get all 20 reps. You won’t simply be “light headed and out of breath” if you do 20 rep squats the right way. You’ll wish you were dead.

Take as much time as you need between reps (after 8-10), breathe hard, and go for another rep. A set may take as long as 3-4 minutes. See if you can find the video of Jesse Marunde doing 407x20 and you’ll see what I mean.[/quote]

OneEye, you are theoretically correct in that I’m not starting that heavy but the original routine calls for your “normal 10 rep poundage” (Super Squats,pg.46). The deal here is the fact that my 10 reps with 315 isn’t merely warmup weight. Those 10 reps are an absolute max and worked much harder than the average lifter’s normal 10 rep set. Most people can do much more for 10 reps than they actually do. What I’m starting with admittedly isn’t that hard but will certainly be before long. Starting at 315x20 would be damn near impossible at this point.

I’m not being negative at all, just being honest with myself. I do appreciate your input, though.

TornadoTommy · October 19, 2006, 3:53am

[quote]Bootsie wrote:
OneEye wrote:
TornadoTommy wrote:
Retarded? You call a training protocol that’s routinely proven to add 15-20 lbs. of bodyweight in just a few weeks retarded? I seriously doubt that you performed them with any significant poundage since it took you 3 sets to feel like you had done any work.

How about you try doing 1x20 with 50 lbs. more than your bwt. and then come back and say you needed 3 sets. That’s rock bottom squats, not merely parallel and not in a smith machine with a bench under your butt. I think you’ll find that your own GPP isn’t as good as you think. I squat 315 for 10 reps and 405 for for 3 reps (ATG) and the 230x20 I did today still made me light headed and out of breath.

You’re using 85 lbs less than you should be. I doubt the set is as hard as you think it is. Throw 315 on the bar if that’s your 10RM, and keep the bar on your back until you get all 20 reps. You won’t simply be “light headed and out of breath” if you do 20 rep squats the right way. You’ll wish you were dead.

Take as much time as you need between reps (after 8-10), breathe hard, and go for another rep. A set may take as long as 3-4 minutes. See if you can find the video of Jesse Marunde doing 407x20 and you’ll see what I mean.

yep exactly. that weight you used is wayyy to light. I couldnt do 315x10 when i first started it, but used 225x20 to start. this wasnt to difficult, at first.

For you to be struggling at 230x20 something seems off. Not meant as a slam, but maybe your conditioning is bad or you never have trained high reps?? [/quote]

Bootsie, I never said I was “struggling” with 230, I was making a point that, even though I can squat 315x10 (max) and 405x3, 230x20 left me winded and lightheaded. This was a statement directed at those who don’t think 1 set for high reps isn’t all that tough.

I did 12 reps before I ever stopped to take in any extra air, which I suspect is why I got winded. Got to change that since it’s nothing compared to what I’m going to feel like. Also, I’m willing to bet that with some motivation, you could have done 315x10 before starting 20 reps. Not slinging mud, just an observation. Still, thanks for your reply.

OneEye · October 19, 2006, 4:00am

[quote]TornadoTommy wrote:
OneEye wrote:
TornadoTommy wrote:
Retarded? You call a training protocol that’s routinely proven to add 15-20 lbs. of bodyweight in just a few weeks retarded? I seriously doubt that you performed them with any significant poundage since it took you 3 sets to feel like you had done any work.

How about you try doing 1x20 with 50 lbs. more than your bwt. and then come back and say you needed 3 sets. That’s rock bottom squats, not merely parallel and not in a smith machine with a bench under your butt. I think you’ll find that your own GPP isn’t as good as you think. I squat 315 for 10 reps and 405 for for 3 reps (ATG) and the 230x20 I did today still made me light headed and out of breath.

You’re using 85 lbs less than you should be. I doubt the set is as hard as you think it is. Throw 315 on the bar if that’s your 10RM, and keep the bar on your back until you get all 20 reps. You won’t simply be “light headed and out of breath” if you do 20 rep squats the right way. You’ll wish you were dead.

Take as much time as you need between reps (after 8-10), breathe hard, and go for another rep. A set may take as long as 3-4 minutes. See if you can find the video of Jesse Marunde doing 407x20 and you’ll see what I mean.

OneEye, you are theoretically correct in that I’m not starting that heavy but the original routine calls for your “normal 10 rep poundage” (Super Squats,pg.46). The deal here is the fact that my 10 reps with 315 isn’t merely warmup weight. Those 10 reps are an absolute max and worked much harder than the average lifter’s normal 10 rep set. Most people can do much more for 10 reps than they actually do. What I’m starting with admittedly isn’t that hard but will certainly be before long. Starting at 315x20 would be damn near impossible at this point.

I’m not being negative at all, just being honest with myself. I do appreciate your input, though. [/quote]

Point taken, but IMO you should bump up the weight some. Maybe not to 315, but 275 isn’t out of the question by any means. My first 20 rep session, I did 225, and my 10RM wasn’t anywhere near 315. More like 265, if that.

bonzi50 · October 19, 2006, 4:17am

[quote]OneEye wrote:
I guess you missed the crucial part of the program that says you do 20 reps with your 10 rep max. When I was doing them, it would be 5 minutes before I could even crawl to the bench. No way I was going to try some more squats. Do it right and then try telling people they should do 3x as much. Not going to happen.[/quote]

now Im no logician but it seems it would be impossible to do more than 10 reps with your 10 rep max. i mean it is a 10 rep max right? MAX!

give me a break

I have done this shit and i’m not saying it isn’t great or hard cause it is but honestly now, you’ve got to be getting at least 2 sets of 20 or you just aren’t in good enough shape to even be doing this in the first place.

the volume of the workout would be way too low to do anything than just make you weaker unless you threw in another set or two.

BarneyFife · October 19, 2006, 4:56am

[quote]bonzi50 wrote:
OneEye wrote:
I guess you missed the crucial part of the program that says you do 20 reps with your 10 rep max. When I was doing them, it would be 5 minutes before I could even crawl to the bench. No way I was going to try some more squats. Do it right and then try telling people they should do 3x as much. Not going to happen.

now Im no logician but it seems it would be impossible to do more than 10 reps with your 10 rep max. i mean it is a 10 rep max right? MAX!

give me a break

I have done this shit and i’m not saying it isn’t great or hard cause it is but honestly now, you’ve got to be getting at least 2 sets of 20 or you just aren’t in good enough shape to even be doing this in the first place.

the volume of the workout would be way too low to do anything than just make you weaker unless you threw in another set or two.
[/quote]

My understanding of the program is that once you get fatigued after the 10th or 12th rep, you stand for a few seconds and get some air. So you take a mini-break without unloading the spine.

RRJC seems to think this will work.
The great thing about it is that if it doesn’t work, its not like the bank forcloses on the farm, you just find something different to try.

mtd25 · October 19, 2006, 5:01am

I’m finishing up Waterbury’s SOB training. I recommend the program, its helped me put on a little size and conditioning.

The second week has 1 day of 4 x 15 squats, and the 4th week has 3 x 20. I did 220 for the 15 reps and then 220 for the 20 reps. This was all with 2 minutes rest in between each set. Maybe, it was the spike, but I felt like I could of done a little more weight or left a little in the tank.

I think 300lb 20 reps would also be a good goal at 180 lbs. Somehow I think Spike helps nausea, because i was winded but didnt feel like pukin or anything, or maybe this program has been one of my favorites along with his HFT, AofW, and Quattro Dynamo.

OneEye · October 19, 2006, 5:38am

[quote]bonzi50 wrote:
OneEye wrote:
I guess you missed the crucial part of the program that says you do 20 reps with your 10 rep max. When I was doing them, it would be 5 minutes before I could even crawl to the bench. No way I was going to try some more squats. Do it right and then try telling people they should do 3x as much. Not going to happen.

now Im no logician but it seems it would be impossible to do more than 10 reps with your 10 rep max. i mean it is a 10 rep max right? MAX!

give me a break

I have done this shit and i’m not saying it isn’t great or hard cause it is but honestly now, you’ve got to be getting at least 2 sets of 20 or you just aren’t in good enough shape to even be doing this in the first place.

the volume of the workout would be way too low to do anything than just make you weaker unless you threw in another set or two.
[/quote]

You’re not getting it, man. Read.

Once you fatigue, you do the remaining reps REST PAUSE STYLE, taking as long as you need between reps while keeping the bar on your back. By “as long as you need,” I mean as long as you need.

It’s possible. Give it a try sometime before you go spouting off with your false knowledge of how things work. You obviously have NOT “done this shit” the right way, otherwise this argument wouldn’t be happening.

The system has been around at least 70 years and you’re trying to convince us that YOU know better? Proven by lifters over and over again, countless times, and yet you think you know a way to improve it when you don’t even have a superficial knowledge of how it works, not to mention hands-on knowledge.

People who have done this program the right way know it works. People who haven’t done the program can see that you’re talking out your ass about something you’ve never done. In other words, you’re not convincing anybody of anything.

OneEye · October 19, 2006, 5:41am

[quote]mtd25 wrote:
I’m finishing up Waterbury’s SOB training. I recommend the program, its helped me put on a little size and conditioning.

The second week has 1 day of 4 x 15 squats, and the 4th week has 3 x 20. I did 220 for the 15 reps and then 220 for the 20 reps. This was all with 2 minutes rest in between each set. Maybe, it was the spike, but I felt like I could of done a little more weight or left a little in the tank.

I think 300lb 20 reps would also be a good goal at 180 lbs. Somehow I think Spike helps nausea, because i was winded but didnt feel like pukin or anything, or maybe this program has been one of my favorites along with his HFT, AofW, and Quattro Dynamo. [/quote]

It isn’t the same. Doing 20 reps in the squat does not mean you’re doing “20 rep squats” as it is commonly taken to mean. Waterbury would prescribe a 24RM or something (don’t quote me on that) for sets of 20 reps. But when you do 20 rep squats (the common definition), you use your 10RM, or close to it.

I’m not knocking on Waterbury in any way because I use his programs and approaches all the time, but what you’re referring to is “sets of 20,” not “20 rep squats.”

MytchBucanan · October 19, 2006, 7:29am

[quote]bonzi50 wrote:
OneEye wrote:
I guess you missed the crucial part of the program that says you do 20 reps with your 10 rep max. When I was doing them, it would be 5 minutes before I could even crawl to the bench. No way I was going to try some more squats. Do it right and then try telling people they should do 3x as much. Not going to happen.

now Im no logician but it seems it would be impossible to do more than 10 reps with your 10 rep max. i mean it is a 10 rep max right? MAX!

give me a break

I have done this shit and i’m not saying it isn’t great or hard cause it is but honestly now, you’ve got to be getting at least 2 sets of 20 or you just aren’t in good enough shape to even be doing this in the first place.

the volume of the workout would be way too low to do anything than just make you weaker unless you threw in another set or two.
[/quote]

That makes no sense. You have to be in good enough shape before you can reap the benefits of any exercise? This is basically what you are saying.

I have done 20 rep breathing squats and I can tell you first hand if they are done correctly you could never do another set!

If you manage to do another set or two, it doesn’t mean you are in better shape. It meant the wieght wasn’t heavy enough.

You can train hard and you can train long, but you can’t do both.

system · October 19, 2006, 9:42am

[quote]bonzi50 wrote:
now Im no logician but it seems it would be impossible to do more than 10 reps with your 10 rep max. i mean it is a 10 rep max right? MAX!

give me a break

I have done this shit and i’m not saying it isn’t great or hard cause it is but honestly now, you’ve got to be getting at least 2 sets of 20 or you just aren’t in good enough shape to even be doing this in the first place.

the volume of the workout would be way too low to do anything than just make you weaker unless you threw in another set or two.
[/quote]

Care to try an experiment? Let me start by saying I’m not trying to goad you or set you up for failure, I’m being serious here. For your next leg day load the bar with your 10 RM in ATG squats. If you don’t do ATG then start doing them and figure out your 10 RM.

Now, get under the bar and do a rep. Once that rep is completed stand with the bar on your shoulders and take three huge deep breaths (this is important for several reasons, one being rest.) After breath number three drop down for another rep and repeat. Take three breaths between reps 1-5, then say 5 breaths for reps 6-10, 9 or so breaths MIGHT do you from reps 10-20, but play it by ear. I have done this and I can tell you three things:

It is possible
It is hard
You MUST get your mind right before rep number one.

Keep telling yourself the world will END if you don’t get that last rep in. No matter what you keep going until rep twenty. If you have to stop and take 10 breaths from rep 5 on so be it, but no matter what you will NOT put that bar down before you get your twenty!

Give that a try doing it exactly as I have described (plagiarized) and then post here or in PM if you still feel that you must have 3 sets of twenty to get any results. Take care, and good luck. -Aaron

bonzi50 · October 19, 2006, 3:35pm

[quote]OneEye wrote:
bonzi50 wrote:
OneEye wrote:
I guess you missed the crucial part of the program that says you do 20 reps with your 10 rep max. When I was doing them, it would be 5 minutes before I could even crawl to the bench. No way I was going to try some more squats. Do it right and then try telling people they should do 3x as much. Not going to happen.

now Im no logician but it seems it would be impossible to do more than 10 reps with your 10 rep max. i mean it is a 10 rep max right? MAX!

give me a break

I have done this shit and i’m not saying it isn’t great or hard cause it is but honestly now, you’ve got to be getting at least 2 sets of 20 or you just aren’t in good enough shape to even be doing this in the first place.

the volume of the workout would be way too low to do anything than just make you weaker unless you threw in another set or two.

You’re not getting it, man. Read.

Once you fatigue, you do the remaining reps REST PAUSE STYLE, taking as long as you need between reps while keeping the bar on your back. By “as long as you need,” I mean as long as you need.

It’s possible. Give it a try sometime before you go spouting off with your false knowledge of how things work. You obviously have NOT “done this shit” the right way, otherwise this argument wouldn’t be happening.

The system has been around at least 70 years and you’re trying to convince us that YOU know better? Proven by lifters over and over again, countless times, and yet you think you know a way to improve it when you don’t even have a superficial knowledge of how it works, not to mention hands-on knowledge.

People who have done this program the right way know it works. People who haven’t done the program can see that you’re talking out your ass about something you’ve never done. In other words, you’re not convincing anybody of anything.[/quote]

its funny how the definition of these 20 rep squats keeps changing as the thread continues.

first it was suppose to be done with 50lbs over your body weight which wouldn’t be very difficult and would allow for someone to get multiple sets.

Now youre not doing it right unless you get 20 reps with your 10 rep max.

In that definition i can see how you probably wouldn’t be up for a second set after that type of ultimate exertion. but!!! what if you were to put that kind of exertion into your 10 rep max??? oh shit! then you’d really have to kick your ass to get 20 reps the next time. whooowie

the precieved level of exertion is a tricky thing.

bonzi50 · October 19, 2006, 3:45pm

[quote]Aaron76 wrote:
bonzi50 wrote:
now Im no logician but it seems it would be impossible to do more than 10 reps with your 10 rep max. i mean it is a 10 rep max right? MAX!

give me a break

I have done this shit and i’m not saying it isn’t great or hard cause it is but honestly now, you’ve got to be getting at least 2 sets of 20 or you just aren’t in good enough shape to even be doing this in the first place.

the volume of the workout would be way too low to do anything than just make you weaker unless you threw in another set or two.

Care to try an experiment? Let me start by saying I’m not trying to goad you or set you up for failure, I’m being serious here. For your next leg day load the bar with your 10 RM in ATG squats. If you don’t do ATG then start doing them and figure out your 10 RM.

Now, get under the bar and do a rep. Once that rep is completed stand with the bar on your shoulders and take three huge deep breaths (this is important for several reasons, one being rest.) After breath number three drop down for another rep and repeat. Take three breaths between reps 1-5, then say 5 breaths for reps 6-10, 9 or so breaths MIGHT do you from reps 10-20, but play it by ear. I have done this and I can tell you three things:

It is possible
It is hard
You MUST get your mind right before rep number one.

Keep telling yourself the world will END if you don’t get that last rep in. No matter what you keep going until rep twenty. If you have to stop and take 10 breaths from rep 5 on so be it, but no matter what you will NOT put that bar down before you get your twenty!

Give that a try doing it exactly as I have described (plagiarized) and then post here or in PM if you still feel that you must have 3 sets of twenty to get any results. Take care, and good luck. -Aaron
[/quote]

well unfortunately we all have to talk at each other as if everyone knows more than the next. but let me tell you I’ve been around the weight room a few times and you don’t need you to explain this to me.

I never said it was impossible but i was kind of being a smart ass about the 10rep vs. 20rep max. I know the way it can be done but if you read the beginning of this post the weight suggested for this was 50lbs over body weight instead of the 10rep max and so you can see how i would say that you should be getting more than one set with that kind of weight.

now with the 10 rep max. i can see how difficult that would be and believe it or not i have done it just the way you described and still only done one set.

I will have to do it again sometime soon to refresh my memory.

OneEye · October 19, 2006, 3:48pm

[quote]bonzi50 wrote:
its funny how the definition of these 20 rep squats keeps changing as the thread continues.[/quote]

The definition I gave is the definition that has been around for 70 years or more and is what people think of when you say “20 rep squats.” Look it up.

[quote]In that definition i can see how you probably wouldn’t be up for a second set after that type of ultimate exertion. but!!! what if you were to put that kind of exertion into your 10 rep max??? oh shit! then you’d really have to kick your ass to get 20 reps the next time. whooowie

the precieved level of exertion is a tricky thing.[/quote]

The difference is that you don’t do rest-pause when testing a 10 rep max. If you took 3 minutes to complete the set of 10 and then said it was your 10 rep max, you’d be wrong.

MytchBucanan · October 19, 2006, 7:24pm

Now that we are on this subject. Do you think there is a downside to these? Someone earlier on this post, brought up how squatting is the easiest way to overtrain (I imagine deadlifting is similar).

The harder you push yourself the greater the GH response. Unfortunately cortisol rises as well w/ intensity.

Obviously it depends on many factors as well if you want avoid overtraining, but it seems that it would be a good idea to use these fairly infrequently or only in the first few weeks of an intensity cycle.

I can’t remember who it was, but there was a strength coach on this site that used to recommend that squats be dropped (for leg presses) as soon as gains slowed or stopped.

He use the analogy that your spine is your actuall nervous system and if you constantly load a heavy bar on it, it’s like asking for overtraining.

He said that often his clients would start making gains again, because the nervous system could finally recover.

He wasn’t bashing squats, he was merely pointing out that they should be used sparringly.

Any thoughts on this?

TornadoTommy · October 19, 2006, 11:41pm

[quote]bonzi50 wrote:
OneEye wrote:
bonzi50 wrote:
OneEye wrote:
I guess you missed the crucial part of the program that says you do 20 reps with your 10 rep max. When I was doing them, it would be 5 minutes before I could even crawl to the bench. No way I was going to try some more squats. Do it right and then try telling people they should do 3x as much. Not going to happen.