I agree Rich.
Once again, I’d like the mods to consider stickying this to the top of the forum. Any way that can be done?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I agree Rich.
Once again, I’d like the mods to consider stickying this to the top of the forum. Any way that can be done?[/quote]
If that’s the consensus among members, it can be done.
Voted up…oops wrong place.
A sticky would be awesome. beep
I second making this a sticky.
edit: Also, when this thread is made a sticky, it would be nice if the ‘make this a sticky’/‘i agree with stickying this thread’ posts were deleted.
Please make this a sticky.
[quote]Mod Jump’N Jack wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I agree Rich.
Once again, I’d like the mods to consider stickying this to the top of the forum. Any way that can be done?[/quote]
If that’s the consensus among members, it can be done.[/quote]
Thanks so much guys. I really just don’t want to lose track of some of the fantastic posts in this thread.
So informative and excellent.
Hmmm…question(spawned by 6vs UFC HW thread)…would you label the guys involved in the fight as “average?” And what significance does “average” really weigh-in with self-defense/street-fight situations??
I have come to this thread pretty late and doubt anyone will give a shit lol. Was gonna post this is the mma vs 6 guy thread but that has gone to shit…
Anyway, I have had a real life experience of fighting multiple opponents. I fell out with a guy (genuinely his fault too haha) and a few days later he showed up with his 3 pals and they jumped me. The main thing I remember all these years later is the EXTREME sense of tunnel vision I felt during the whole thing which I attribute to the massive adrenaline dump which occurred at the time. Like no sense of any sounds or pain or anything else going on at all.
The guy called out to me and as I turned around I was hit with a brick but fortunately managed to tuck my chin down just enough so that it hit the top of my head. Head split open and face/ torso covered in blood but the wound was pretty superficial really. Now believe it or not but I had been reading alot of Geoff Thompson’s stuff at the time and one of his drills is something called Animal Day.
Part of this is basically the principle of “attack the attacker” which he also mentions in his biography. He says that when facing multiple guys the best thing to do is to hit the nearest/ “most aggressive” and go from there, rather than try and think of some kung fu strategy or movie type BS cos you will just get swamped and kicked to fuck.
Amazingly enough, I vividly remembered this at the time and punched the guy with the brick in the face. Dropped him and then swung for another guy. Was blindsided by another and got hit, luckily for me i staggered into a parked car about 2 feet away and didn’t go down. Looking back, if it wasn’t for the car I would have got completely fucking annihilated.
From here I was backed up against the car (a serious lucky break) and I swung like fucking crazy and was exceptionally aggressive and managed to drop at least one other guy and then they all just kind of sccattered. Had the most insane rush of adrenaline and didn’t realise at all that I was covered in blood. Then thought fuck maybe I have been stabbed but thankfully it turned out it was all from a relatively small cut from the brick.
It turned out that around a month later these same guys did this to someone else and really badly fucked him up he was in a coma for around 4-5 days I believe. Repeatedly kicking him on the ground etc. Around 3 years after this, one of these guys attacked his GF’s mom when she was asleep and left her with multiple metal plates in her skull. He was jailed indefinitely.
So from this, I would say the main things that helped were the car (which is obviously pure luck) and the fact I was extremely aggressive. I also had a alot of street fighting and some boxing experience too. I managed to go into survival mode immediately and thankfully it turned out well for me.
In my opinion, in this situation and in other experiences, adrenaline is the absolute key. In the video, the guy had a much better chance than what happened to him, but managed the situation very poorly almost certainly due to lack of experience and adrenaline. He should have been looking to punch to drop, not swing his legs like bruce lee. But I would imagine that as shit got real he was not experienced enough to handle his adrenaline/ fear and didn’t know what to do.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…question(spawned by 6vs UFC HW thread)…would you label the guys involved in the fight as “average?” And what significance does “average” really weigh-in with self-defense/street-fight situations??[/quote]
There’s a lot of avenues to go down with this one.
The first, and possibly most obvious one, is are they “physically average?” Do they weightlift? Do they look like they weightlift? Are they big? Small? Weak? Fat?
In that regard, these guys look average. Skinny to average build, don’t look like lifters, etc.
Then there’s experience. Are they experienced fighters? Did the red shirt guy box in his youth? Did the gangbanger type? Do they have any kind of martial arts experience, or are they just violent dudes from the hood that aren’t afraid to bang out?
In that level, I would say with how quickly they got in on each other, they maybe weren’t all that experienced, but they were certainly willing to fight. So who knows. Although their lack of technique makes it seem like neither side had done anything in the past.
But also, there’s mindset. Are they of the average suburban mindset that fears not only violence, but its repercussions, including cops, arrest, jail, and the like? Will they stab you if they’re losing? Will they stab you for fun?
Well, in that respect these guys are not average, even though its kind of hard to tell what’s really going on in their minds. But the willingness to fight, combined with the soccer style kicks to the head at the end, lets you know that they are NOT average. This isn’t the first rodeo for either party.
But to be honest, which of these matters most? Like in the mythical 6 “average” guys against one super mega MMA fighter, all it takes is one guy who has a combat mindset - maybe a guy who is one of the hundreds of thousands of veterans of the Army campaigns in Iraq or Afghanistan, one ex-cop, one reformed gang member, or one just scary tough dude - to go straight for a kill in whatever way he has to.
That kind of kill-or-be-killed mentality and the willingness to take it all the way can make up for a lot.
Average was a nice term to use, and a nice term for EXTREME drewdines to jump on, but in reality, “average” is really fucking hard to pin down. A guy who is average in body may have a killer’s mindset, and a guy who is average in mind and won’t try to kill you may be big enough that he can just sit on your ass. And the one guy who wears a suit and looks utterly “average” in every way may have come from a hard upbringing where violence was just tuesday for him.
Hence why these generalities and wide-reaching terms like “average” are bad to use. I know a lot of suburban guys who seem pretty “average” in every respect that would not hesitate to shoot you if they were sufficiently threatened.
And by the time you figure out that the guy isn’t “average” it may be a bit too late.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…question(spawned by 6vs UFC HW thread)…would you label the guys involved in the fight as “average?” And what significance does “average” really weigh-in with self-defense/street-fight situations??[/quote]
In my opinion, they are average. They are arguing and posturing aggressively but do not know how to fight. This is typical of what you commonly see in street fight situations. In general, your average guy doesn’t actually wanna get physical and is scared shitless as he is not experienced in managing his adrenaline. People want it to end without losing face, usually by making threats and not actually doing anything. Experienced street fighters get down to it very quickly, they keep the posturing to a minimum. This is cos they realise the severity of the situation and know they are themselves at risk of being beaten up/ potentially killed, so they defend themselves by attacking first.
If the guy was experienced, he would have known the situation he was in and just attacked guy 1, dropping him. Then it’s him v guy 2, but in reality, guy 2 is also average and cannot manage his fear/adrenaline and seriously drops his load at seeing his friend beat down. Instead, he did like any average guy does, postures aggressively without thinking, makes a few half arsed swings and is then in the mix. Once they start swinging, the 2 have the numerical advantage over the lone guy. In my opinion, if guy one was experienced, he could have handled this relatively easily.
They are all average, if Pink Shirt had experience he would have had a much higher chance of winning or not losing so badly.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…question(spawned by 6vs UFC HW thread)…would you label the guys involved in the fight as “average?” And what significance does “average” really weigh-in with self-defense/street-fight situations??[/quote]
There’s a lot of avenues to go down with this one.
The first, and possibly most obvious one, is are they “physically average?” Do they weightlift? Do they look like they weightlift? Are they big? Small? Weak? Fat?
In that regard, these guys look average. Skinny to average build, don’t look like lifters, etc.
Then there’s experience. Are they experienced fighters? Did the red shirt guy box in his youth? Did the gangbanger type? Do they have any kind of martial arts experience, or are they just violent dudes from the hood that aren’t afraid to bang out?
In that level, I would say with how quickly they got in on each other, they maybe weren’t all that experienced, but they were certainly willing to fight. So who knows. Although their lack of technique makes it seem like neither side had done anything in the past.
But also, there’s mindset. Are they of the average suburban mindset that fears not only violence, but its repercussions, including cops, arrest, jail, and the like? Will they stab you if they’re losing? Will they stab you for fun?
Well, in that respect these guys are not average, even though its kind of hard to tell what’s really going on in their minds. But the willingness to fight, combined with the soccer style kicks to the head at the end, lets you know that they are NOT average. This isn’t the first rodeo for either party.
But to be honest, which of these matters most? Like in the mythical 6 “average” guys against one super mega MMA fighter, all it takes is one guy who has a combat mindset - maybe a guy who is one of the hundreds of thousands of veterans of the Army campaigns in Iraq or Afghanistan, one ex-cop, one reformed gang member, or one just scary tough dude - to go straight for a kill in whatever way he has to.
That kind of kill-or-be-killed mentality and the willingness to take it all the way can make up for a lot.
Average was a nice term to use, and a nice term for EXTREME drewdines to jump on, but in reality, “average” is really fucking hard to pin down. A guy who is average in body may have a killer’s mindset, and a guy who is average in mind and won’t try to kill you may be big enough that he can just sit on your ass. And the one guy who wears a suit and looks utterly “average” in every way may have come from a hard upbringing where violence was just tuesday for him.
Hence why these generalities and wide-reaching terms like “average” are bad to use. I know a lot of suburban guys who seem pretty “average” in every respect that would not hesitate to shoot you if they were sufficiently threatened.
And by the time you figure out that the guy isn’t “average” it may be a bit too late.[/quote]
Excellent post…you covered the point I was leading to…don’t fucking underestimate ANYONE. Situations like that don’t allow the convenience to process if the person is “average”…etc…etc. I just don’t get why people ignore this.
I worked in prisons for almost a decade…hence the screen name. I never really make that known…but that was my life…12 hours a day…in a fucking TX prison in the middle of nowhere. Not the street of course…but you are dealing with 80-90% of offenders who know their way around street violence…and their tactics surface in the prisons. Everyday…EVERY…single…day…I mentally prepared myself as if it was my first day.
In other words…I always assessed my surroundings and didn’t carry huge ego so I could really get a feel for the guys I dealt with. Manipulating…backstabbing(literally and figuratively…lol)…convicts. These guys didn’t give a shit about me. Yeah…I respected them to line where it kept things cool…but it didn’t take much to set any of them off.
Well…not to rant too much…I’m just getting to the point that I’m in a prison with convicts…convicting of EVERYTHING…yet I didn’t know…nor did I care to know. I just knew they were doing time for breaking the law…that’s it. I treated and dealt with every single offender as he was a 6’6" 265 multiple mass murderer. Three-fourths of inmates look “AVERAGE” and the thing that separates them from your everyday law-abiding dunce…is their mentality.
These guys are not dumb…and if they want to hurt you…they will exhaust pretty much every option to do so. They don’t give a shit.
[quote]yolo84 wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…question(spawned by 6vs UFC HW thread)…would you label the guys involved in the fight as “average?” And what significance does “average” really weigh-in with self-defense/street-fight situations??[/quote]
In my opinion, they are average. They are arguing and posturing aggressively but do not know how to fight. This is typical of what you commonly see in street fight situations. In general, your average guy doesn’t actually wanna get physical and is scared shitless as he is not experienced in managing his adrenaline. People want it to end without losing face, usually by making threats and not actually doing anything. Experienced street fighters get down to it very quickly, they keep the posturing to a minimum. This is cos they realise the severity of the situation and know they are themselves at risk of being beaten up/ potentially killed, so they defend themselves by attacking first.
If the guy was experienced, he would have known the situation he was in and just attacked guy 1, dropping him. Then it’s him v guy 2, but in reality, guy 2 is also average and cannot manage his fear/adrenaline and seriously drops his load at seeing his friend beat down. Instead, he did like any average guy does, postures aggressively without thinking, makes a few half arsed swings and is then in the mix. Once they start swinging, the 2 have the numerical advantage over the lone guy. In my opinion, if guy one was experienced, he could have handled this relatively easily.
They are all average, if Pink Shirt had experience he would have had a much higher chance of winning or not losing so badly.[/quote]
Well…I could see that…IF he hadn’t been a dumbass to begin with. To me…his lack of common sense set up his demise. The thing is…there are so many body language signs that people disregard. He even disregards the fact the he is actually squared off with 3 people…he is having the “tunnel vision” you mentioned and just focused on the guy in front of him.
His “lack of experience” showed when he threw shit that had no real intentions of doing damage. You can’t do that in those situations…period. Regardless if he was in wrong or right…if you’re going to be the first to throw…you have to make that shit count.
As far as the “average” argument…the thing is that you’re right…FightingIrish is right…but that type of assumption is only answered AFTER shit hits the fan. You can’t make that assumption beforehand.
Here’s another vid…since body language and posturing has been brought up. Also…leads into points about space…and distance.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Here’s another vid…since body language and posturing has been brought up. Also…leads into points about space…and distance. [/quote]
There was also a post on Wim’s blog about this as well. He dissects the situation pretty well.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Here’s another vid…since body language and posturing has been brought up. Also…leads into points about space…and distance. [/quote]
There was also a post on Wim’s blog about this as well. He dissects the situation pretty well.
Dissected very well. Like his points about distance and posture.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
His “lack of experience” showed when he threw shit that had no real intentions of doing damage. You can’t do that in those situations…period. Regardless if he was in wrong or right…if you’re going to be the first to throw…you have to make that shit count.
As far as the “average” argument…the thing is that you’re right…FightingIrish is right…but that type of assumption is only answered AFTER shit hits the fan. You can’t make that assumption beforehand. [/quote]
Completely agree with the “you have to make that shit count.” IMO shows his total lack of experience and which is why I said he behaved in an “average” way. It was just an extension of his verbal posturing. Someone with experience knows that at this stage you hit as hard as possible, all posturing is over. You do not risk a kick at all in this situation.
As to the above posts, I agree, always assume the guy is NOT average. However, in a situation like this a real experienced guy can tell from the behaviour of both parties reasonably quickly that neither side is that experienced. It is typical posturing BS imo.
I slightly diasgree with the view that the soccer kicks show they are not average. With adrenaline so high and with you on top, even your regular inexperienced guy can be a real dirty fucker. Arguably more so, as he is not used to being so emotionally charged.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Dissected very well. Like his points about distance and posture.[/quote]
Haha I was just gonna post about distance. ESPECIALLY when the guy sticks his head in the other guys face YOU MOVE OUT OF THE FUCKING WAY!!
Always try and manage the situation with distance. There are many ways to do this, taking an apologetic/ disarming approach can work very well. Here, if the guy on the left was experienced, he could have taken a short step back with his right foot when he got up in his face, to appear defensive while subtly making an angle to throw the right (not some elaborate ‘dukes up’ stance). Ideally he would hold his left hand out to look defensive while actually gaining range and also protecting himself from attack. Say to the guy look im sorry and then banged him with the right hand. Yeah it’s not nice/moral/cowardly or whatever, but it’s the truth. Any street fight you can fucking DIE so never mind about the morality or some shit.
Alot of street fighting is managing all of the build up, especially the adrenaline build up. An experienced guy is able to THINK in the few seconds available in these type of scenarios. The guy on the left was passive bar talking tough and look where it got him. This video is a classic example of the kind of stuff that happens in bars and clubs.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
But to be honest, which of these matters most?.. all it takes is one guy who has a combat mindset[/quote]
For the theoretical types reading this thread who haven’t had real experiences, THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING BAR NONE. These situations are all mental, bar the guy being some comedy 95lb midget. Your average sized guy with this mentality is seriously dangerous. The problem is generally speaking you will be fighting a stranger and won’t know this until you are in the fucking deep end with him.
So bar all of the obvious legal repercussions, people really should avoid physical fights unless it is the last possible option. Especially you dorks still doing the highschool “yo bro ima fuck you up man you don’t want me to totally lose my shit bro”. You are now a grown man and this stupid shit can get you killed lol.
Just say sorry and get the fuck out of there 
no need to fight.
I will concur that the close distance posturing thing is really an indication of someone that does not WANT to fight but wants someone to back down, tantamount to an animal showing its teeth. It amazed me how often I would witness this in altercations that I have seen.
There is no way I would ever go bumping chests, gesticulating wildly…etc if someone was confronting me. Granted this only happens in those mutual escalation scenarios that are people calling one anothers bluff until someone throws the first punch.
I would keep my distance and maintain that defensive, unassuming side stance if someone was trying to provoke me into something. The MINUTE someone invades my personal space (given that I have nowhere to go because of crowds, walls…etc) I will be throwing punches kicks, knees etc non stop. The road rage fight example they are still far away, which leads the victim to his first mistake of engaging while outside of proper range. But you better believe if you are puffing your chest out, walking towards me with your hands down trying to back me down, I am not going to say anything, I will just start hitting.
So your saying that Langston Hughes didn’t beet the crap out of five hoodlums and “earn the right to the streets of Harlem” as his autobiography clearly states? Are you calling the most powerful poetic voice of the Harlem Renaissance a liar? I mean I can understand doubting all the instances of of this sort of thing in the Bible, but do you really think it’s an urban legend that Bas Rutten was arrested in Sweden for beating up a group of bouncers?