And by the way Idaho, I have lots of questions about the Army’s CQC and your opinions of it… if I started another thread, is it possible that you could answer some of them? If not I understand, I’m just really curious about several facets of that.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Yes but you will also read many stories of men in war who got shot in the shoulder and almost immediately went into shock and were out of the fight. It’s not an unequivocal thing, adrenaline doesn’t always provide superhuman performance.
Adrenaline dumps might numb pain, but IIRC it does nothing to stop the nervous system from shutting down from perceived trauma. I.E if you get blasted on the jaw hard enough to cause some serious whiplash you are still probably going to go out cold.[/quote]
Adrenaline dump can actually CAUSE a shock-like reaction in some people. Not sure about the biological cause, but basically their body can’t handle the sudden rush and they just drop.
Of course, you can’t count on running into that guy, and the worse the area and people the higher the odds that the guys with this reaction have already been “selected out” by other conflicts.
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Yes but you will also read many stories of men in war who got shot in the shoulder and almost immediately went into shock and were out of the fight. It’s not an unequivocal thing, adrenaline doesn’t always provide superhuman performance.
Adrenaline dumps might numb pain, but IIRC it does nothing to stop the nervous system from shutting down from perceived trauma. I.E if you get blasted on the jaw hard enough to cause some serious whiplash you are still probably going to go out cold.[/quote]
Adrenaline dump can actually CAUSE a shock-like reaction in some people. Not sure about the biological cause, but basically their body can’t handle the sudden rush and they just drop.
Of course, you can’t count on running into that guy, and the worse the area and people the higher the odds that the guys with this reaction have already been “selected out” by other conflicts.[/quote]
I wouldn’t count on any response. Realistically the variables involve the physiological stress responses(and variables there of), any chemical modifiers present, and the psychological response to both. One person describes the “adrenalin dump” as getting so nervous and shaky they can’t do anything, another relishes it.
In Idaho’s story he dealt with a person who through some combination of endogenous adrenalin/hormones, exogenous chemicals, and psychology managed to enter into a state where he would fight until he literally could not any more.
When honorable men do this under certain circumstances they get awarded medals, often posthumously. When scum-bags do it we get Idaho’s story, The Miami Shootout, etc. Luckily most of the people who do it, at least in my experience, suffer from medical conditions and 1.)aren’t about to kick a bunch of ass and 2.)they are drugs available to take away the chemical factors. Cops can’t push a bunch of sedatives an IV port.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
Robert:
As far as knives, I was a big fan of having a little Ka-BAR LDK on the retention belt under my gun belt, right behind the buckle. I could draw it over or underhand with either hand if needed, and there are very few grappling situations where at least one hand can not reach your center line. It was nearly invisible, so odds were low on anyone reaching for it. I never had to use it, but I figured it was my last ditch way out if I ever ended up on the ground with some wrestler/jiujitsu clown. [/quote]
Center line/front waistband carry seems to be getting more and more popular. I always carried folders there as a matter of course.
I looked at a Ka-Bar LDK briefly and it didn’t exactly blow my skirts up. My impression may have been sullied by the full size TDI, which I really didn’t like, and by a bit of sour grapes that I could see getting a “push dagger” accusation if I ever carried one.
Did you do any practice with either the LDK or the TDI? It seemed like the angle would make strong stabbing and ripping harder, not easier when I felt them up. I would rather have a conventional design that I can hold with a regular grip or with a reverse grip edge in.
Regards,
Robert A
Idaho,
Thank you again for the response.
I had considered, and continue to consider, those points. Re-visiting them again was still valuable.
I was always a huge fan of Jeff Cooper’s Principles of Personal Defense. I give copies as gifts frequently.
Stay safe.
Regards,
Robert A
Man I’ve been training and fighting +20 years, banged with some of Australia’s best in fights and training and I still walk the other way when I see even a frown on a guys face.
Am I a coward? lol… hardly and the times I have been forced into a situation on the street(read 2 times), I definitely let them know I was there but I hate street violence with a passion. I bounced for years too and I can happily say I never once got into an altercation at work, despite many of my colleagues getting f**ked up.
On the street, the safest you can be is not be there at all. Partying, night life, drinking, pubs, clubs, hot spots etc… all just putting yourself in the Lions Den. I haven’t been to any of those places (aside from fight shows) in 15 years and I don’t plan on ever going back.
I have too much fun at home and in training anyway.
So fuck fighting in the street. You resort to it and you’re one dumb ass. You get jumped and you’re still a dumb ass for being in that spot or situation. If forced into it, play the coward and let the other guy feel like king and ease your way out of it. Go home, be happy, hug your kids, bang your wife and feel macho again.
The smart guy is not who gets himself out of trouble but the one who doesn’t get into trouble in the first place.
We had a local fighter get fucked up recently in Thailand.
Check it out
The “Fuck it” News.
Nice.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Did you do any practice with either the LDK or the TDI? It seemed like the angle would make strong stabbing and ripping harder, not easier when I felt them up. I would rather have a conventional design that I can hold with a regular grip or with a reverse grip edge in.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
I did practice with it, although not full speed (as all i had with that grip was the real deal). I did practice draws with either hand while in a triangle/armbar/guillotine/kimura, and I found that I could get it out and effective from almost any position.
It was something of a punch dagger though, better used for quick repeated stabs to back someone off than a strong stab and rip. I definitely wasn’t going to use it in any situation where I could get to a department issued weapon of some sort. I had a folder sheathed on my gunbelt for tool purposes too, so the LDK was for just what the name said: last ditch knife. I liked that it was downright tiny and hid behind my belt buckle, and could punch out a lung or femoral if I was grappled beyond escape. It wasn’t a great knife for general use but it seemed to fulfill its intended purpose well.
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Did you do any practice with either the LDK or the TDI? It seemed like the angle would make strong stabbing and ripping harder, not easier when I felt them up. I would rather have a conventional design that I can hold with a regular grip or with a reverse grip edge in.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
I did practice with it, although not full speed (as all i had with that grip was the real deal). I did practice draws with either hand while in a triangle/armbar/guillotine/kimura, and I found that I could get it out and effective from almost any position.
It was something of a punch dagger though, better used for quick repeated stabs to back someone off than a strong stab and rip. I definitely wasn’t going to use it in any situation where I could get to a department issued weapon of some sort. I had a folder sheathed on my gunbelt for tool purposes too, so the LDK was for just what the name said: last ditch knife. I liked that it was downright tiny and hid behind my belt buckle, and could punch out a lung or femoral if I was grappled beyond escape. It wasn’t a great knife for general use but it seemed to fulfill its intended purpose well.[/quote]
I figured the preferred method, considering you are both thoughtful and skilled, was going to involve running the point into the guy like a sewing machine until he stopped wanting to cuddle.
Glad it never came down to that. Especially since if it did than things would be well and truly fucked and it can take a bit of time for hypovolemic shock to fit in.
Regards,
Robert A
humble,
Tell the truth.
Everyone in Australia is too tired from defending themselves from all the wildlife that can kill you to want to engage in other stupidity. Right?
Regards,
Robert A
Irish,
As they say in the South, I could talk tactics “until the cows come home”. Unfortunately, my current job requires me to maintain a Top Secret Clearance and with the advent of social media sites, (especially Facebook), the Department of Defense (DOD) and the Department of Justice (DOJ) have adopted a very strong line againist anything job related posted on an open forum. If I post something that “someone” reads and thinks it should be classified, I would probably get my clearance pulled, without a current clearance, no job…That is why I can write about my LEO PAST experiences, just nothing related to my current employment.
On the other hand, being a amateur student of history, in my humble opinion, one can begin the study of modern “house-to-house fighting” or “small specialized combat units” by examining the Battle of Stalingrad. It took years, but the lessons learned there, stll apply today in military units and well trained , major city SWAT teams.
The tactics employed by a good boxer: intellegent planning, coordination, timing, accuracy, and power will translate well to victory in an armed conflict.
Robert,Jim
I was reading with great interest your comments on adrenaline /hormones in individuals and had the Miami 1986 Shootout brewing in the brain stem. Great to see it brought up, and should be required reading for everyone on this forum. Great discussion, wish all conversations were this good.
[quote]idaho wrote:
I was reading with great interest your comments on adrenaline /hormones in individuals and had the Miami 1986 Shootout brewing in the brain stem. Great to see it brought up, and should be required reading for everyone on this forum. Great discussion, wish all conversations were this good. [/quote]
Didn’t see it firsthand, but in a house raid on the indian rez we had a guy unload a 2 1/2 in low recoil 9 shot 12 ga round into a big indian motherfucker’s torso and not drop him right away. Second round in the gun was a slug, he didn’t shrug that one off as easily (but IIRC lived long enough that they at least tried to medivac him). All he had in his system was alcohol, adrenaline, and hate, although I’m guessing being over 300 lbs and wearing a leather jacket didn’t hurt his ability to soak up a torso shot. I just wonder what PCP could have done to that monster.
I’m pretty sure that if I unloaded a 12 ga at someone and didn’t drop him I’d be shitting myself while I worked the action for a followup.
Regarding instant stops from torso shots: it is my understanding that this is heavily influenced by the psychological impact of being shot, which is in turn influenced by our cultural beliefs about firearms, gunshot wounds etc. It’s almost as if are brains tell us “Oh shit, I’m shot, I’m going to die now” and our bodies make it a reality. Individual physiology is no doubt a factor as well, but I believe it is primarily the mental aspect that makes the difference. I am in no way trying to downplay the severity of a gunshot wound, for the record, just questioning our belief in the near magical power of guns to instantly stop anyone, including ourselves should we ever be unfortunate enough to get shot.
I haven’t read them first hand, but apparently there are accounts of disciplined British colonial troops engaging native populations who had no prior experience with firearms. Apparently, despite having been hit with numerous rounds the tribesmen, who were obviously in a goal oriented and intensely emotional and adrenaline-charged state, didn’t know they were supposed to die and continued to rush the British across the approximately 50 metres (I think) of open field that separated them. They closed with the British who were then forced to engage at bayonet point having completely lost their stand-off distance. Not bad for a bunch of “dead guys”. Of course most of the tribesmen did subsequently die of their injuries, but that was probably cold comfort for the soldiers who brought their guns to a knife fight and ended up slogging it out at knife range just the same.
My point is that if a person doesn’t know that gunshots “should” drop them right away or if just don’t care because you’re too high, mentally ill or just plain goal oriented then they can keep fighting until blood loss causes loss of consciousness, which can take a really long time when we’re talking about a life and death struggle.
As well as the numerous accounts of bad guys absorbing seemingly inhuman amounts of police fire while continuing to fight there is a story I like to remember to avoid falling into the trap of believing that this is some kind of drug-crazed nut job superpower. An off duty SFPD (I believe) officer who was presumably neither high nor crazy, was pulling into her driveway at the end of the day. Multiple gunmen (don’t recall how many) who had some beef with her from the job got the drop on her and hit her numerous times (possibly 9) in the torso severely damaging her heart. Apparently at any given time there is enough oxygenated blood in your system at any time to keep you going for a while even if your heart is compromised. She pulled her own pistol and proceeded to kill them all before losing consciousness. She was rushed to hospital and survived and ultimately recovered from her injuries.
The human body is a remarkable machine and trauma surgeons are making advances all the time.
Apologies for the long post.
I pointed Wim Demeree, a well-known self defense author and expert, in the direction of this video and he posted about it on his blog.
He also scraped up more info on Mr. Red Shirt… apparently, it’s not his first time trouble because of road rage.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I pointed Wim Demeree, a well-known self defense author and expert, in the direction of this video and he posted about it on his blog.
He also scraped up more info on Mr. Red Shirt… apparently, it’s not his first time trouble because of road rage.
http://www.wimsblog.com/2012/06/road-rage-fight-on-the-los-angeles-freeway/[/quote]
Awesome…
It was already hard not to call “Mr.Red Shirt” a moron…his statements validated it.
If I’ve learned anything from watching old Star Trek, it’s that you NEVER go out in a Red Shirt if you want to make it home. Unless you’re Scottish, then it’s apparently OK for some reason.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
Regarding instant stops from torso shots: it is my understanding that this is heavily influenced by the psychological impact of being shot, which is in turn influenced by our cultural beliefs about firearms, gunshot wounds etc. It’s almost as if are brains tell us “Oh shit, I’m shot, I’m going to die now” and our bodies make it a reality. Individual physiology is no doubt a factor as well, but I believe it is primarily the mental aspect that makes the difference. I am in no way trying to downplay the severity of a gunshot wound, for the record, just questioning our belief in the near magical power of guns to instantly stop anyone, including ourselves should we ever be unfortunate enough to get shot.
[/quote]
You are not off base here.
I would add however that the term “psychological effects” should be taken at its most literal. Basically anything that ia mid brain to cortex. True “instant” stops are disruptions of the central nervous system’s motor control ability. So brain stem or cervical spinal chord trauma that is severe enough to make the person go limp. A true honest to god loss of consciousness is also in this category, though if it happens due to anoxia or exsanguination getting there can take some time.
The reason I am stressing this conscious reaction thing is that some people read “psychological” and interpret it as “cannot stand the pain” or even “being a pussy”. That really isn’t the case. In many respects the psychological response to pain/injury helps keep further injury from happening. If you have to fight on with a cracked rib, knowing to protect that area is not a drawback. If we are talking about gunshot or stab wounds, then recognizing you are injured and getting yourself into a situation where wounds can be treated is not a draw back. Ignoring a wound and bleeding out is not the type of action that wins campaigns or wars, though it may help in a single battle. So aside from the “laying down to die” response there is also; taking cover and calling for a medic, giving up so that you can be arrested and get first aid, changing your goals from fighting/attacking to disengaging so that you can tend to wounds, and so on.
Psychology, basically how we react to stimulus governs the majority of what everything from punches and kicks to bullets buys us. Jim wrote about a guy basically ignoring a charge of 12 gauge 00 buck. In that case it is obvious that his CNS was still intact. He may have been mortally wounded but it can take seconds to minutes for hypovolemic shock or unconsciousness to set in and the officer’s response was a proper one. He fired again.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
Regarding instant stops from torso shots: it is my understanding that this is heavily influenced by the psychological impact of being shot, which is in turn influenced by our cultural beliefs about firearms, gunshot wounds etc. It’s almost as if are brains tell us “Oh shit, I’m shot, I’m going to die now” and our bodies make it a reality. Individual physiology is no doubt a factor as well, but I believe it is primarily the mental aspect that makes the difference. I am in no way trying to downplay the severity of a gunshot wound, for the record, just questioning our belief in the near magical power of guns to instantly stop anyone, including ourselves should we ever be unfortunate enough to get shot.
[/quote]
You are not off base here.
I would add however that the term “psychological effects” should be taken at its most literal. Basically anything that ia mid brain to cortex. True “instant” stops are disruptions of the central nervous system’s motor control ability. So brain stem or cervical spinal chord trauma that is severe enough to make the person go limp. A true honest to god loss of consciousness is also in this category, though if it happens due to anoxia or exsanguination getting there can take some time.
The reason I am stressing this conscious reaction thing is that some people read “psychological” and interpret it as “cannot stand the pain” or even “being a pussy”. That really isn’t the case. In many respects the psychological response to pain/injury helps keep further injury from happening. If you have to fight on with a cracked rib, knowing to protect that area is not a drawback. If we are talking about gunshot or stab wounds, then recognizing you are injured and getting yourself into a situation where wounds can be treated is not a draw back. Ignoring a wound and bleeding out is not the type of action that wins campaigns or wars, though it may help in a single battle. So aside from the “laying down to die” response there is also; taking cover and calling for a medic, giving up so that you can be arrested and get first aid, changing your goals from fighting/attacking to disengaging so that you can tend to wounds, and so on.
Psychology, basically how we react to stimulus governs the majority of what everything from punches and kicks to bullets buys us. Jim wrote about a guy basically ignoring a charge of 12 gauge 00 buck. In that case it is obvious that his CNS was still intact. He may have been mortally wounded but it can take seconds to minutes for hypovolemic shock or unconsciousness to set in and the officer’s response was a proper one. He fired again.
Regards,
Robert A
[/quote]
Thanks for the reply Robert A. Good points, as always. Pain, fear and the psychological responses thereto absolutely have strong survival value.
Just to be clear I wasn’t meaning to imply that not being a pussy so you can ignore injuries and go into “Terminator Mode” is the most desirable response to gunfire or other grievous threats. As far as I know, the ability to create distance and find cover is the one of the biggest factors in the survivability of LEO who end up in gunfights.
It was more my intention to address those situations where, due to the circumstances (i.e. ambush at extreme close quarters) the only immediate option is to launch an offensive and take the fight to your assailant(s) until you either prevail or can fight your way clear. As important as it is to respect the severity of gunshot/knife wounds, multiple assailants etc.
I believe it is equally important to have a frame of reference for people surviving and coming out on top in these dire situations as well. What we genuinely believe can, IMO, have a significant impact on how we respond to stimulus. You may very well be screwed, but it is not to your advantage to think so if you have no viable option but to fight on.
Sometimes attempting to retreat/disengage will put you at a disadvantage when compared to an unexpected, violent and relentless counter-offensive (again I would cite ambush at extreme close quarters possibly featuring weapons and/or multiples, which is a fairly common “street” scenario). My training is that in these situations you can rarely go backwards as quickly as your assailant(s) can go forwards so at close range they will almost always be able to close with you while retaining the initiative and keeping you in “prey” mode. Of course there are always exceptions. In these situations I would propose that the ability to absorb/ignore injuries until you can fight your way clear and seek medical attention/backup etc. is very advantageous.
Also if “giving up so that you can be arrested and get first aid” is an option, I strongly recommend that you do that before getting shot 
This is probably the best discussion I have seen in this forum, perhaps this site. Thanks to all for the good information.
I also think that it would behoove many people to realize that the world is not a nice place. Even in the US, which is among the safer countries there are downright very dangerous places that you can walk into without even knowing. In my city, sometimes ghettos and upper income areas are just a block apart.
I think alot of the ignorance on this issue stems from suburban males wishing to appease their macho instincts without realizing the true dangers of these situations… and thinking like in the movies everythings a fair fight…or because they know “some shit” they can beat up 5 guys.
Real life isnt like that and you can get stabbed, shot, beaten or killed no matter who you are and for the stupidest of reasons. Your best first line of defense is eyes, ears, and good judgement.