Having not read the whole thread, my belief is this. As a security gaurd, if I had been in that situation, I’m certain I’d get fired! Don’t care about the laws or my company rules ect…I’d be screwed.
" Hold on a minute, I gotta get this uniform off before I can help…" Yup, sounds about right.
I do not know the whole story behind the video but I do know some people thrive on complete chaos. wherever that video took place, once people know that the security is laxed it will be all kinds of shit happening. word travels fast. i mean some asshole with his buddies you dont even know can knock the shit out of you just for fun, walk away as if nothing happened and security is standing right there. not only is it not safe for the public but the security guards themselves are at risk of attack with such a laxed attitude. force must be met reasonable force end of story.
this may sound bad but that shit happens all the time around here
welcome to “east oakland”
A crazy person always has the advantage against a decent one!
This is true. It’s a sad fact of the world and it is another reason why people cannot just take violence lying down. Societies where the norm is to defend oneself and others tend to see a lower crime rate. Nobody is going to rob a teenage girl publicly (or pubicly) if they know a gang beating is coming their way.
Liability laws have made it so that unless trained and authorized to do so, you can get in just as much shit legally, if not more, then the aggressors themselves. FUBAR?? Hell fucking yes. REALITY?? Hell fucking yes. You have to survive, plain and simple. No one is gonna rush to dive in front of the bullet one of those gangbangers could put in your back. Shit escalates when groups are involved. Its an annonomity mentalitly. Like the bookworm prude who flashes her tits at mardi-gras. You never know what MIGHT happen. Add teenagers and this exponentially compounds that “what if” factor. This is because juvi law is fucking bullshit for the most part. Too many kids act hard until they get caught. And then its crying in the courtroom and getting community service and an expunged record when they turn 18. They have no responsabilities, and a slap on the wrist is all they might get. Adults dont have this benefit. I get a hard on just thinking of what I would do the next time some little bitch cut me off, if I knew all the law would say is “Ok, dont do that again. We’re not gonna publish your name anywheres, you won’t serve any time or pay any fines, just don’t do it again, ok?”. But alas, whos gonna put food on your table when your in prison, laid up in a hospital bed or under six feet of terra ferma?
I guess my point is, do I feel bad for the girl? Yes, it was fucking awful to watch. Do I think its fucked up that those guards were not authorized to intervene with reasonable force? Yes, wtf is the point of them collecting a paycheck that ultimately is paid by the very citizens they fail to protect. Thats a fucked up contract. Would I protect my own neck by not interevening? Unless that was my sister/mother/daughter/friend, fuck yes.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]SirenSong61 wrote:
Someone mentioned that the attacked girl was in a gang. I saw the video and read the article and my understanding was that the girl was an innocent shopper, with no gang affiliation, targeted by a “gang” bent on harassing a lone young woman and stealing her goods. Did I misread this?
BTW, the story HAS picked up steam and the video, along with the “public outcry” made the CBS Evening News. Happy about that. No mention of the victim being associated with a gang on the news.[/quote]
If it catches enough steam, perhaps we can curb the legal ramifications that cause shit like this to happen in the first place.
As it stands, if they even slightly moved the girl on the ground after she was injured they could be sued as well if there is ANY damage at all to her spine or the move causes internal damage. That means that LEGALLY, there isn’t much you can do to protect YOURSELF in a situation like that if you work for a company with those guidelines.
As a society, we have basically “court-roomed” away our own humanity.[/quote]
Whatever you do your instinct is either to help someone in trouble or protect yourself from harm, in much the same way you either slam on the brakes or keep going when an animal runs in front of your car. In the traffic example, some people feel a natural empathy for a wayward animal while others automatically consider the potential cataclysm that could occur if there be a trail of cars are behind them.
As for court-rooming, being sued would be the last thing on my mind if someone’s in trouble. I may be mad as Hell about having to hire a lawyer after the fact but, right now, I’m involved. But then I’m also going to brake for the animal. It’s automatic, the law be damned.
As someone else said, for all the Rambos here that would jump in and save someone’s life, it sure seems like it don’t happen often. There’s a reason “Good Samaritan” stories make the news- they’re fucking rare.
More often, shit like this goes down and no one helps. The fact that it was two women in this case makes it all the more spectacular- if it was two guys, I doubt any of this would have gone beyond the fake outrage that people spew on the internet.
My favorite line just came from an official I read about in TIME relating to Haiti- “The aid is never fast enough for the armchair aid workers sipping their lattes.”
I have jumped in to break up a couple fights that didn’t concern me. I’ve let many, many other ones go because I deemed them too harmful to me if I stayed around. I’m not a huge guy, and people are generally not intimidated by me other than getting the vibe that I want to be left alone, kind of like a porcupine. So if I get in there, I’m not going to be able to bear hug some guy and drag him out- I’m going to have to fight. So if I put myself in that situation, you’d better believe that I could get fucked up. And me, I really don’t like that.
It’s really easy to say, “I’d have done this, I’d have done that”, but self-preservation is the highest of human concerns whether you believe it or not. There’s no doubt about this. And all it takes is getting hit with one beer bottle, getting choked unconscious, getting kneed in the jaw, or any of the other brutal shit that’s happened to me or that I"ve seen happen, for you to NEVER want to get involved in something that you don’t have to.
Honestly, if these two were brawling, I would have seen the warning signs. And I wouldn’t have stuck around to find out where they were going with it. By the time that girl was getting stomped in the head I would have been a mile away, because I don’t fucking want to deal with watching this, talking about this, or seeing it in my memory.
It’s called “Shutting the door to violence.” I did it because I’ve nearly gotten arrested and nearly had serious damage done to me- and then I watched some guy get his head splattered on the pavement outside a bar.
So you Rambos have fun. Don’t come crying to me when the blood pool starts spreading though.
[quote]gethuge08 wrote:
I see what you mean X, but I have to disagree especially in this situation because the guards could have so easily stepped in. It was a girl doing the damage and no weapon was in the situation (yes I know that this doesn’t mean there were no weapons). So everybody needs to realize what they are rationalizing. [/quote]
One night after work I ran into my local grocery store to grab a few necessities and as I ran in the security guard was chasing down some guy, whome he tackled him at the exit. Immediately, four other store employees and a customer piled on top. I still have no idea what it was all about (some kind of thievery, I guess) but the city police were taking the guy away as I was leaving. This case immediately made me think of that night. I can’t help but think that if just one brave soul had come to the girl’s rescue, others would have joined in to stop the young woman doing the attacking. And the sight of an outraged mob of bystanders would have forced the “gang” to run because then THEY would have been outnumbered.
PX is right about the laws, which need radical overhauling all over. But for people who get involved, it’s not the laws of man but the laws of nature (or of God) that guide. Your reflex is to get involved because you could never live with yourself if you didn’t.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
As someone else said, for all the Rambos here that would jump in and save someone’s life, it sure seems like it don’t happen often. There’s a reason “Good Samaritan” stories make the news- they’re fucking rare.
More often, shit like this goes down and no one helps. The fact that it was two women in this case makes it all the more spectacular- if it was two guys, I doubt any of this would have gone beyond the fake outrage that people spew on the internet.
My favorite line just came from an official I read about in TIME relating to Haiti- “The aid is never fast enough for the armchair aid workers sipping their lattes.”
I have jumped in to break up a couple fights that didn’t concern me. I’ve let many, many other ones go because I deemed them too harmful to me if I stayed around. I’m not a huge guy, and people are generally not intimidated by me other than getting the vibe that I want to be left alone, kind of like a porcupine. So if I get in there, I’m not going to be able to bear hug some guy and drag him out- I’m going to have to fight. So if I put myself in that situation, you’d better believe that I could get fucked up. And me, I really don’t like that.
It’s really easy to say, “I’d have done this, I’d have done that”, but self-preservation is the highest of human concerns whether you believe it or not. There’s no doubt about this. And all it takes is getting hit with one beer bottle, getting choked unconscious, getting kneed in the jaw, or any of the other brutal shit that’s happened to me or that I"ve seen happen, for you to NEVER want to get involved in something that you don’t have to.
Honestly, if these two were brawling, I would have seen the warning signs. And I wouldn’t have stuck around to find out where they were going with it. By the time that girl was getting stomped in the head I would have been a mile away, because I don’t fucking want to deal with watching this, talking about this, or seeing it in my memory.
It’s called “Shutting the door to violence.” I did it because I’ve nearly gotten arrested and nearly had serious damage done to me- and then I watched some guy get his head splattered on the pavement outside a bar.
So you Rambos have fun. Don’t come crying to me when the blood pool starts spreading though.[/quote]
Grown men in a bar fight does not compare to a young girl, shopping alone, minding her own business, suddenly being attacked by a gang of mostly adult men, evidently strangers. But hey, when that little girl is your daughter I know all the guilt-stricken bystanders will feel great relief after the fact when you announce you totally understand why they didn’t want to get involved.
I’m sure that girl never thought something like this would ever happen to her, either, during an innocent shopping trip. Oh well.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Honestly, if these two were brawling, I would have seen the warning signs. And I wouldn’t have stuck around to find out where they were going with it. By the time that girl was getting stomped in the head I would have been a mile away, because I don’t fucking want to deal with watching this, talking about this, or seeing it in my memory.
It’s called “Shutting the door to violence.” I did it because I’ve nearly gotten arrested and nearly had serious damage done to me- and then I watched some guy get his head splattered on the pavement outside a bar.
[/quote]
That’s poor. It’s called running like a sissy. In Germany it’s a criminal offense (although most people don’t get caught).
Nobody expects you to put yourself in unreasonable risk but running away does not mean violence doesn’t happen.
The least you could do is call help and offer first help.
It’s hard to believe that there really are people in the bodybuilding and combat area who see such a great danger in a girlfight that they advise to not get involved.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Jah wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]lard wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]lard wrote:
If this is your attitude you truly are a pussy and a big part of the problem with our society.
[/quote]
He’s not… he’s right in that society does not reward stepping in to save someone. If she was in a gang, you’ll get fucked up for laying a hand on her. If she’s not, she’ll sue you anyway for laying a hand on her.
If she won’t, the odds are that you will get kicked or bit by her when you do lay a hand on her.
If you don’t break it up, however, you get bashed on websites across the world by people who are complete strangers to not only physical violence, but the aftermath of it.
Moral of the story is don’t be a security guard. [/quote]
I have been a police officer for 19 years so I am somewhat familiar with physical violence. We had an officer involved in a major fight yesterday morning and thankfully for him a citizen came and assisted him. I guess he’s lucky it wasn’t you, PX , or any other little girl on this board standing by.
[/quote]
Gotta love the internet.
…and LOL at “little girl”.[/quote]
I am almost certain he was pointing out your lack of Heart / Courage. Your obviously big physically too bad it doesn’t reciprocate on the inside. Lion from Wizard of OZ!
Well if you feel so strongly about only security and financial future etc, you are now part of a system that teaches just that. Good job on losing your humanity!
Who also said fights don’t happen randomly?.. WOW get out more. Ever left your computer? Or went somewhere else other than the gym? Hate and Anger blinds rational thought, if you haven’t noticed by now… welcome to Earth. [/quote]
Lack of heart and courage? I haven’t even discussed what I alone would do in that situation. i was discussing what THE GUARDS ARE ALLOWED TO DO and why they are not at fault in this situation if they were ordered not to physically restrain or handle someone.
You see, I’m one of those guys who went into the military AFTER 9/11 because I was NOT afraid to put my life on the line to help other people.
I am one of the people who provides medical aid to people every single day…so who is the coward here?
I laughed because no one ever says crap like this to me directly, but apparently every Rambo mutherfucker in the country is on line at the same time.
I laughed because throwing these insults like this from behind the protection of your computer screen is about as close to being a coward as you can get.
Carry on with your judgment, however.
Lard is doing a GREAT job of representing police.[/quote]
Being an oral surgeon in the Air Force is SOOOO dangerous!!! Just keep rollin’ those dice. (Inside joke the Prof will get.)
[quote]SirenSong61 wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
As someone else said, for all the Rambos here that would jump in and save someone’s life, it sure seems like it don’t happen often. There’s a reason “Good Samaritan” stories make the news- they’re fucking rare.
More often, shit like this goes down and no one helps. The fact that it was two women in this case makes it all the more spectacular- if it was two guys, I doubt any of this would have gone beyond the fake outrage that people spew on the internet.
My favorite line just came from an official I read about in TIME relating to Haiti- “The aid is never fast enough for the armchair aid workers sipping their lattes.”
I have jumped in to break up a couple fights that didn’t concern me. I’ve let many, many other ones go because I deemed them too harmful to me if I stayed around. I’m not a huge guy, and people are generally not intimidated by me other than getting the vibe that I want to be left alone, kind of like a porcupine. So if I get in there, I’m not going to be able to bear hug some guy and drag him out- I’m going to have to fight. So if I put myself in that situation, you’d better believe that I could get fucked up. And me, I really don’t like that.
It’s really easy to say, “I’d have done this, I’d have done that”, but self-preservation is the highest of human concerns whether you believe it or not. There’s no doubt about this. And all it takes is getting hit with one beer bottle, getting choked unconscious, getting kneed in the jaw, or any of the other brutal shit that’s happened to me or that I"ve seen happen, for you to NEVER want to get involved in something that you don’t have to.
Honestly, if these two were brawling, I would have seen the warning signs. And I wouldn’t have stuck around to find out where they were going with it. By the time that girl was getting stomped in the head I would have been a mile away, because I don’t fucking want to deal with watching this, talking about this, or seeing it in my memory.
It’s called “Shutting the door to violence.” I did it because I’ve nearly gotten arrested and nearly had serious damage done to me- and then I watched some guy get his head splattered on the pavement outside a bar.
So you Rambos have fun. Don’t come crying to me when the blood pool starts spreading though.[/quote]
Grown men in a bar fight does not compare to a young girl, shopping alone, minding her own business, suddenly being attacked by a gang of mostly adult men, evidently strangers. But hey, when that little girl is your daughter I know all the guilt-stricken bystanders will feel great relief after the fact when you announce you totally understand why they didn’t want to get involved.
I’m sure that girl never thought something like this would ever happen to her, either, during an innocent shopping trip. Oh well. [/quote]
But…but…he’s a boxer. He’s used to fighting. He knows to run away from danger!!
LOL!!
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]polo77j wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
These emotional threads get so… emotional. I’m going to further restrain myself from this one because there aren’t many logical people to argue with.[/quote]
why do you think I said what I needed to say and left it at that? Everyone’s an expert[/quote]
Well…I am.[/quote]
…and so is the dentist
[quote]Ken St.Mich wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Honestly, if these two were brawling, I would have seen the warning signs. And I wouldn’t have stuck around to find out where they were going with it. By the time that girl was getting stomped in the head I would have been a mile away, because I don’t fucking want to deal with watching this, talking about this, or seeing it in my memory.
It’s called “Shutting the door to violence.” I did it because I’ve nearly gotten arrested and nearly had serious damage done to me- and then I watched some guy get his head splattered on the pavement outside a bar.
[/quote]
That’s poor. It’s called running like a sissy. In Germany it’s a criminal offense (although most people don’t get caught).
Nobody expects you to put yourself in unreasonable risk but running away does not mean violence doesn’t happen.
The least you could do is call help and offer first help.
It’s hard to believe that there really are people in the bodybuilding and combat area who see such a great danger in a girlfight that they advise to not get involved.
[/quote]
You misunderstood him. Some people, and I consider myself one of them, pay attention to their surroundings very closely. Unless I just literally walked on the scene, I likely would have noticed the beginnings of a fight long before someone actually got a punch in. My first instinct the moment I see signs of an altercation is to remove myself from the area before the violence actually takes off.
I would do the same in a club. Why? Because not doing so will likely get you shot or injured if this turns into a mob mentality.
Mind you, I have worked as a bouncer in the past and still get approached pretty regularly by random people asking me to still do it for whatever engagement or club they are running just because I look intimidating.
Once again, he was not referring to simply walking away from an injured girl. He was talking about removing himself from a potential powder keg before someone lights the match.
[quote]polo77j wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]polo77j wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
These emotional threads get so… emotional. I’m going to further restrain myself from this one because there aren’t many logical people to argue with.[/quote]
why do you think I said what I needed to say and left it at that? Everyone’s an expert[/quote]
Well…I am.[/quote]
…and so is the dentist[/quote]
The Federal Court in the Eastern District of PA says I am. 
I’m not sure about the “dentist”, but X hasn’t said anything yet that I find objectionable. Unlike most chest thumpers, he’s pretty damn reasonable and realistic.
[quote]Ken St.Mich wrote:
Hahahaha I had a blast reading this.
Pepper spray? For a little girl?
Take a big step back and literally ah no forget about it. Look at the situation.
You have a couple of girls attacking a girl.
While I don�´t know what was outside the camera picture, I doubt there were others involved. The article didn�´t mention it.
Concerning the training and attributes a security guard should have, I did not say that they are all trained or just strong.
Unfortunately not. But I expect it from a security guard. Otherwise he puts himself at risk and can�´t protect others (or whatever shit he should protect).
My employers did not ever arrange any sort of training for me. They accepted me as a trained person and employ me accordingly. (Not everyone can do every job in the security business)
I often see securtiy guards who are weak, fat, untrained. They are ridiculous.
I also see such people in the police. What a disgrace.
The security camera would make an intervention even easier because you have hard evidence. Xou�´d have to restrain yourself from using excessive force in that case.
You say you can�´t control a physical engagement with a teenage girl. Why are you a bouncer in one of the toughest clubs in Philly?
They claimed they were outnumbered, what a ridiculous argument.
Outnumbered by a couple of girls.
I try almost every weekend to get outnumbered by at least 2 girls, but they don�´t make it that easy.
I don�´t know much of your laws. I can tell you that you are supposed to help in such situations in Germany.
If you are in danger of getting injured you don�´t have to intervene physically.
That means your grandma wouldn�´t have to step in, she�´d have to call the police.
Then you still have to consider that unless they put themselves in unreasonable danger security guards in Germany are obligated to protect the stuff and people in their working place.
Failure to do so leads to the possibility of legal consequences.
If you work in a mall and let some kid steal a couple of video games without interfering (as long as it s not dangerous) and you can be convicted for negligent theft.
Watch a bitch beat up a girl and you can be convicted for negligent physical assault. A normal bystander would be in for not helping without that assault thing. You see as a security guard you�´d get punished a lot more than a person who is not involved.
A contract forcing security not to intervene in such a situation would be irrelevant.
I somehow like that a lot more than what you are describing.
[/quote]
Dude, if you’d stop thumping your chest just long enough to read and think, you might have a shot at adding something intelligent to this thread. You’ve already admitted that you were hired as a “security guard” UNTRAINED. And it’s clear that you have no carefully considered the issues before you respond.
First, it is clear from the report that the girl was part of a LARGER GROUP. Whether they were out of camera shot or not, is anyone’s guess but that was my point. She wasn’t alone.
Next, the person that took her purse, unless I’m mistaken, we MALE.
Any employee, guard or not, is retained to perform what they were CONTRACTED to do. It seems you’re not familiar with an observe and report posting. Perhaps you have not considered that the company also has concerns not only for respecting its contract with its vendor, but also for allowing a potentiall untrained employee to become involved in a physical altercation and suffer injury. There are a myriad of issues you that you have not PROFESSIONALLY considered.
Any neanderthal can thump his chest and say, ungawa…me tarzan, me can break up little girlie fight quite easily. But do it without getting attacked in return, escalating the situation and/or getting your employer and its vendor sued.
I referenced pepper spray as a non-lethal tool to disperse CROWDS or GROUPS of people. It’s effective. My point was, they probably were not even armed with at least that much. They got a cell phone and a vest. They are, without dispute, ILL EQUIPPED to become involved in ANY confrontation. I don’t know how they do it in GERMANY, but here, the girls fight back. And before you call us a sissy and say we should be able to beat a girl, that’s not the job!
You say you don’t know our laws. That’s the most intelligent thing you have yet uttered.
And no, you CANNOT easily control a female intended on combat. It’s far easier to control a male. I see you have NO EXPERIENCE in this regard or, maybe they just behave different in GERMANY. In the last 3 months, out of many “incidents”, I cannot recall one male patron attempting to assault a bouncer. In the same time span, I can think of 3 girls who have.
Employer aside, do you want to be in a criminal court room explaining to a judge that you didn’t assault this woman? I don’t. But the larger point is, I’m CHARGED with the DUTY to protect patrons and use REASONABLE FORCE to remove those that are a threat to persons and property. The security guards in question were specifically FORBIDDEN from doing so.
Finally, sounds like you have some interesting laws in Germany. You’d do better to speak on that, because the legal, professional and practical issues here are over your head - or you are just typing before thinking.
insurance rates would be sky high if the guards were told to interfere physically. they are there to mainly act as extra eyes and a visual deterrent.
[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
WOW. Wtf? Those guards should be charged as well. What the fuck has this world come to?[/quote]
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You misunderstood him. Some people, and I consider myself one of them, pay attention to their surroundings very closely. Unless I just literally walked on the scene, I likely would have noticed the beginnings of a fight long before someone actually got a punch in. My first instinct the moment I see signs of an altercation is to remove myself from the area before the violence actually takes off.
I would do the same in a club. Why? Because not doing so will likely get you shot or injured if this turns into a mob mentality.
Mind you, I have worked as a bouncer in the past and still get approached pretty regularly by random people asking me to still do it for whatever engagement or club they are running just because I look intimidating.
Once again, he was not referring to simply walking away from an injured girl. He was talking about removing himself from a potential powder keg before someone lights the match.[/quote]
X, you’re talking to people that, quite frankly, appear to have not been exposed to real violence - else they would consider their thoughts and opinions more carefully. They see clips on the internet, become emotional, get a testosterone surge, and run to the computer and type “I would do this, I would do that”, without once considering or having first hand experience with the consequences of real violence. Anyone that has witnessed violence and its consequences up close and pesonal, does not make light of it. If you have an honest, thoughtful reply, you’re a “sissy”, a coward, etc. Bla bla bla.
As for our tuetonic chest thumper, ask any American cop what the most dangerous call is - the answer is DOMESTIC. And it’s not always because of the MAN.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Ken St.Mich wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Honestly, if these two were brawling, I would have seen the warning signs. And I wouldn’t have stuck around to find out where they were going with it. By the time that girl was getting stomped in the head I would have been a mile away, because I don’t fucking want to deal with watching this, talking about this, or seeing it in my memory.
It’s called “Shutting the door to violence.” I did it because I’ve nearly gotten arrested and nearly had serious damage done to me- and then I watched some guy get his head splattered on the pavement outside a bar.
[/quote]
That’s poor. It’s called running like a sissy. In Germany it’s a criminal offense (although most people don’t get caught).
Nobody expects you to put yourself in unreasonable risk but running away does not mean violence doesn’t happen.
The least you could do is call help and offer first help.
It’s hard to believe that there really are people in the bodybuilding and combat area who see such a great danger in a girlfight that they advise to not get involved.
[/quote]
You misunderstood him. Some people, and I consider myself one of them, pay attention to their surroundings very closely. Unless I just literally walked on the scene, I likely would have noticed the beginnings of a fight long before someone actually got a punch in. My first instinct the moment I see signs of an altercation is to remove myself from the area before the violence actually takes off.
I would do the same in a club. Why? Because not doing so will likely get you shot or injured if this turns into a mob mentality.
Mind you, I have worked as a bouncer in the past and still get approached pretty regularly by random people asking me to still do it for whatever engagement or club they are running just because I look intimidating.
Once again, he was not referring to simply walking away from an injured girl. He was talking about removing himself from a potential powder keg before someone lights the match.[/quote]
Your first paragraph is what I’ve been preaching to my 17 yr son for a couple of years now. When he’s at a party or standing waiting for the bus at night. Always be aware. Don’t have to overdoe it and be paranoid of course. Practice it enough and it becomes second nature. Learn to read peoples body language.
My first time being at the wrong end of a sucker punch was enough for me.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]polo77j wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]polo77j wrote:
[quote]Deorum wrote:
These emotional threads get so… emotional. I’m going to further restrain myself from this one because there aren’t many logical people to argue with.[/quote]
why do you think I said what I needed to say and left it at that? Everyone’s an expert[/quote]
Well…I am.[/quote]
…and so is the dentist[/quote]
The Federal Court in the Eastern District of PA says I am. I’m not sure about the “dentist”, but X hasn’t said anything yet that I find objectionable. Unlike most chest thumpers, he’s pretty damn reasonable and realistic.[/quote]
I was going to go on and say “…and the unemployed guy and the college kid” but that might’ve been too vague