This is a straw man counterargument. No… I believe in using the level of force reasonably required to defuse a situation. There have been many cases stemming from police or civilian alike wherein excessive force has been applied leading to unwarranted casualties
If Zecarlos summary of the case is what actually occured, no injustice has occurred
We have that element here, too.
What constitutes beyond rehabilitation… How exactly are you SURE of this when such an approach isn’t being legitimately trialled?
Because it’s like a family tradition. They don’t think like most people. It’s not genetic but it’s close enough. It’s hard to explain to people who aren’t familiar with people like that. They are sociopaths.
I’m not entirely unfamiliar with gang culture. I’ll edit this response in like 40 mins when I can (currently working). Im not engrained within it though, nor am I associated with any kind of gang/organised crime related activity. I’m aware of the toxic dynamics, mentality present within these people.
However at the same time you’ve got those that want out… Yet can’t break out, they’re not exactly beyond rehabilitation
It’s beyond gang culture.
You’re talking about mafia/organised crime syndricates right?
Many people also want out of this style of life
As to what I know about gang culture, it’s not entirely appropriate for me to be writing down any encounters I may have had with individuals involved with such a life online… However I don’t respect those who choose to willingly encase themselves within such a lifestyle, it’s short sighted… especially those kids who started because they thought it was “cool” (being born into such a lifestyle is a very different story)… Within organised crime syndicates, the mafia in particular… being born into such a lifestyle is very challenging, especially when crime, violence and whatnot becomes normalised from day to day viewing. I coincidentally knew an adult who grew up (unwillingly) engrained within the Italian Mafia… not exactly a full box of chocolates now (seriously traumatised/deleteriously impacted based upon events witnessed within his youth)
You mentioned sociopathy… you’re not wrong at all, environmental factors can in part play a HUGE role within the development of sociopathy, esp during youth wherein one is highly prone to neurological alteration. Sociopathy in itself can develop on the sole basis of environmental factors, one isn’t always born a sociopath. As to rehabilitation, this kid was fifteen… The younger you are, the easier it may be to pull one out of such a lifestyle. However as you’ve alluded to, if this kid IS engrained within organised crime (don’t know about this though, it’s possible… not certain) then one would have to entirely uproot him from his place of residency, place him somewhere else and initiate the integration of a normal life… This would be very expensive however, potentially use resources of which the government at hand can’t provide.
Many of these kids, adults even aren’t happy with their choices. To be initiated within a gang/organised crime at age 12-13 is a huge choice, a choice of which the participant joining isn’t aware of/can’t comprehend. I don’t believe the blanket statement stating these people can’t be rehabilitated to be true. I believe in attempted rehabilitation in the same vein of which I believe a kid shouldn’t be incarcerated/given a criminal record for making a stupid mistake and possessing a pill at a festival. Granted organised crime/gang initiation is comparatively more serious.
This is slightly off topic however and more appropriately discussed within a different thread. This kid was fifteen, shot dead in the streets. We don’t know his story, what occurred leading up to this event (what drove him to this kind of behaviour). I tend to not make blanket judgements regarding bias towards the officer or offender. These cases, dynamics within organised crime, gangs etc are incredibly complex. No matter the case, I feel as if it’s rather sad to see such a waste of human life… potential squandered. Hence I don’t like it when I hear people so callously proclaim “good riddance, he should’ve died”… we don’t know this kids story, what led up to this. Making such a statement is furthermore incredibly disrespectful to the loved ones of the deceased.
Until specifics have been confirmed, I am yet to showcase any particular bias leaning towards either side. From what I’ve been TOLD by you, I believe the actions of the officer were entirely justified. If this imitation firearm was realistic enough to shoot blanks, upon seeing the weapon go off it would appear almost identical to a legitimate firearm. I do find it slightly far fetched that the kid fell after getting shot, the gun went off resulting in the officer firing again. It’s possible, guns do go off accidentally (hence an investigation being implemented), but seems a little bit far fetched.
Furthermore, why would the kid have a gun containing a magazine filled with blanks? What use could the implementation of blanks possible serve? You can’t shoot anything with them, perhaps you could fire a shot into the air to scare/intimidate others…
I’ve taken some style tips off this thread and just ordered a new outfit on Amazon, I’m looking forward to being groped when this Coronavirus fucks off.
To be clear, I’m only stating what has been written in the papers. The witness who claims the robber fell and fired off a blank round sounds a little fishy. Was it a fake gun or a real gun loaded with blanks?
As far as the kid goes; what was more likely had he gotten away with this robbery? He would change his ways, go to school, learn a trade, do charity work, or commit more crimes and eventually seriously injure or kill someone? Sure, it would be great if he would have changed his ways at some point but in the meantime you want to play the bad guy, don’t cry when the other guy turns out to be badder. This kid had a father. Maybe that guy should be looked at as the real problem in this situation.
Broadly agree, but police are people too and can still react poorly, despite their training. Except for the USA I get the feeling most cops, get the training, do the bare minimum practice, and never seriously think they will have to shoot a person in their duties(and most don’t need to).
Do you remember in earlier similar topics the case of the mentally ill man who was stabbing himself with a knife and a female cop says" taser, taser, taser" whilst pulling out her sidearm, and shooting the guy to death(to be fair he was probably going to die from self inflicted knife wounds any way)?
Another supposed case of trained policeman(USA?) disarming a guy pointing a gun at him and handing it back to the crook, and getting shot. That’s the way he had trained repetitively, handing the gun back to his training partner for the next attempt, so it stuck in his muscle memory. I don’t know if this ever happened but I have read about it several times, without hearing where or when it occurred.
Shooting the Italian crook in the back or back of the head, well despite already being shot he still might have been trying to act,- attack or flee, and turned around.
At least the officers girlfriend was there as a witness. Unless there were glaringly obvious, worrisome discrepancies, why try and find fault in their account.
I’m also not saying that their shouldn’t be an investigation, coronial inquest, etc just that if its found that the shooting is justified, until that decision has been made then officer shouldn’t even be charged with a crime, and have to undergo a trial.
In these cases its the prosecution doing it, despite knowing full well that there is no chance of a conviction. This happen to Police and to civilians who have used force in a self defence situation. Despite being found innocent eventually, they can lose their marriages, their house and their job. Doesn’t sound very fair to me.
Often these cases involve a perpetrator who is from a minority, but has a criminal record of extreme recidivism. The politics of the situation means the authorities are too afraid to go with the facts, to potentially avoid riots amongst the minority community. Think Rodney King, and the LA Riots. The defendant in the self defence situation is sacrificed for the perception of the greater good.
This. The police in Italy, and I assume most other European countries, act way, way differently than what I’ve had a chance to see in videos and stories from US police happenings. Not saying one of the two ways is better than the other.
Here in Italy, there is way less “tension” in an interaction between the police and a civilian. If you’re pulled over or stopped at a traffic stop, you don’t have to keep your hands visible, you don’t need to declare that you are going to reach for the papers, and the officers are not on the verge of drawing their gun any second, they won’t threaten to shoot you if you get out of your car etc.
Even when someone is arrested, they are usually handled in a much “gentler” way.
This happens way too often here though. There have been at least 10 cases that reached the media and become very popular in the past couple of years.
A politician made up a slogan for this. Here, self defense is called “legitimate defense,” and the slogan was “Defense is always legitimate.”
However judges don’t always seem to agree with that.
As an aside… It’s disconcerting that too many people expect perfection from police. They expect police to handle violent, dynamic situations they way THEY think they should. Medical errors kill way more people every year in America in a controlled environment yet there’s nearly zero outcry and zero protests or rioting. Why is this ?
This wasn’t a typical cop, he was a carabiniere, military police. They get different and more extensive training than typical cops.
America has a much larger population. A much larger violence issue. Much more “diversity.” These all create a very different dynamic for us regarding police interactions. Coupled with the swell in anti police sentiment from so many people including some politicians, media, celebrities, etc… It’s not happening in a vacuum
Of course, and like I said I wasn’t criticizing American police.
I know you didn’t. That was for others that might not understand the difference.
You mean with the cop being charge, correrct? Not with what the cop did?
The cop hasn’t been charged with anything has he? I was referring to my opinion regarding whether he did anything wrong. There certainly shouldn’t be any charges pressed until the investigation comes to a conclusion. It’s innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent…
You sure about this… Doctors get sued ALL the time for malpractice. In Australia doctors are frequently scared to prescribe medication a patient may legitimately require to live a normal life for fear of sanctions imposed by the medical board. There’s a lot of stigma surrounding doctors and the pharmaceutical industry as a whole (accused of being pill pushers, know it all’s, quacks etc).
I have no problem with police (generally). Guys such as yourself (SWAT) I believe are pivotal to maintaining a sense of peace within a community as you stamp out violent crime, big fish that actually NEED to be put away. Do I think law enforcement actually manages to get drugs off the streets… No… Nor do I think such a goal is realistically feasible given the mass quantities of which these poisons are produced smuggled and distributed. I do believe however that you manage to mitigate the amount of dangerous people walking around on a day to day basis, and for that I am thankful.
That being said, there is definitely reason to be wary of law enforcement at times. The vast majority of cops are straight, yet police brutality, corruption etc are aspects that DO EXIST within society. You shouldn’t complain about the public being wary when injustice, excessive force and racial profiling (at least in Aus we have an issue with racial profiling) are highly prevalent.
The reason there is public pushback from the Aussie populace regarding law enforcement (reasoning may differ within the US) Is because here we’ve got cops wasting resources pulling over guys going 1-2mph over the speed limit (very common where I live). You’ve got cops strip searching children over a joint in NSW (common), you’ve got excess force being used in times wherein it’s uncalled for (look at the video of six cops here tazing/beating a disabled guy)… At the same time we have a youth gang/delinquency issue that is in large part being ignored/not nearly as catered to in comparison to other issues wherein police seem to be far more involved.
Police aren’t expected to be perfect, no one is. Yet if you’re going to wield a firearm and have the power to discharge it… You’d damn well better be training to respond adequately within a number of differing scenarios
You might be by the books, I assume you’re an honest, good cop as most are… This doesn’t mean wolves amongst sheep don’t exist within you’re department. This can be said about any job/position. But when you’re in a position wherein you have the lives of others within you’re hands and/or you can get away with actions that’d otherwise be deemed unacceptable… Having an adequately calibrated moral compass/level of mental stability is of the utmost importance
Im 100% positive. It’s well known. Medical errors kill a fuck ton more people. Not saying it’s malicious just as most police killings are not. The vast majority are deemed justified and rightly so given the circumstances.
Also… In America there are a shit ton of moronic dullards that absolutely expect police to be “perfect” and have absurd standards they expect to be met.
Bad police are routinely rooted out and fired / charged / convicted.
