Your detail on this is great, but I have some constructive criticisms.
Are you consuming ALOT of water per day? You should be taking in at least 1.5-2 gallons per day to combat the hepatoxicity on your liver from the M1t. This may be why you’re bloating up. You are putting some major pressure on your liver man!!! You should be supplementing with Milk Thistle, N-acytel-carnitine, and Alpha Lipolic Acid. This will help ALOT!
You are overworking your body, and potentially eating your muscle away by working out twice a day. Everything I’ve ever read has recommended not doing this, because you don’t give your body adequite time to heal itself. Just because you’re working seperate muscle groups doesn’t mean you’re not harming your progress.
Whatever you do…don’t add the 1Test. Obviousely you haven’t done enough research on these things. If you did, then you would know that M1T is 1 Test except it’s the methylated version. By adding 1Test, you’ll be lucky to still have any nuts by the time you finish your cycle. Slow down dude, you’re gonna kill your balls, liver, and possibly yourself. I’ve been lifting for a couple years, and I’m a former fatty as well. Old stats:
5’11" 260 lbs. @ 20% BF
Current Stats: 209 lbs @ 6.7% BF
Max Bench: 405
It appears you’re the type of person that if he doesn’t get the results he wants right away then you must add more to get them. Do some research, and plan a better cycle. Here is mine
Week 1
400mg 4ad transdermal 2x’s a day
15mg M1t
Workouts Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday
Week 2
Same 4ad dose
20mg M1t
Same workouts
Week 3
Same week 2
Weeks 4
40 mg of Nolvadex
Tribulus to help my boys to get going on there own
Weeks 5 & 6
20 mg Nolvadex
taper down the Tribulus
Repeat whole thing again for total of 3 x’s
All the while consuming on a per day basis-the following supplements 2 gallons of water, Glucosamine-Chondroitin (Joint pain), Milk Thistle, n-acytel carnitine, alpha lipolic acid, lecithin, zinc, diet fuel and maintaining a macrobolic diet of 45%-35%-20% carb-protein-fat ratios respectively.
Oh, and 1 more thing…why are you also taking creatine? You are complaining about water retention yet you are taking the 1 supplement that is infamous for water retention.
k, why does everyone think that doing short cycles of M1t is so toxic for your liver? Is there any research, or even any anecdotal information to back this up? Or are the websites and manufactures of these products just trying to pad their wallets by getting you to spend a small fortune on all their liver toxicity supplements?
Is there any info out there that says that M1T is any more toxic for your liver than any other methylated AAS? If it’s not, than unless you have a pre-existing liver problem, you have nothing to worry about.
“3. Whatever you do…don’t add the 1Test. Obviousely you haven’t done enough research on these things. If you did, then you would know that M1T is 1 Test except it’s the methylated version. By adding 1Test, you’ll be lucky to still have any nuts by the time you finish your cycle. Slow down dude, you’re gonna kill your balls, liver, and possibly yourself.”
Actually Burnis there is nothing wrong with adding more 1 test at all. Once you methylate a steroid it makes it a completely different compound. It will most likely dry out his gains and possibly add some lethargy but the idea that his nuts will be gone pc? No offense bro but that is one of the most uneducated statements I’ve heard in some time.
And actually the liver toxicity issue has been blown incredibly out of proportion. Sure blood tests have shown liver values to shoot up but get your blood drawn after you take an aspirin and I think you might be surprised at the two. Is it good to precautious with these new compounds? Hell yes, but dont put this guy into paranoia. I drank 2 gallons of water a day on all 5 of my m1t cycles thus far and so far everytime I’ve bloated up. And with the bloating comes the rise in blood pressure. It just comes with the territory.
I guess I shouldn’t have been so exaggerative on the statement about his nuts being gone. I only meant to put emphasis on using too much. He was only on day 5 or 6, and he already wants to start adding more. Just trying to warn him, and no matter what you put in your body it will effect the liver enzymes, but I personally think he should just give it time before he starts adding. I was only looking out for his best interest. It was constructive criticism…not “uneducated” backlash.
Burnis buddy, you are talking about phill and his liver yet in your stated cycle you start at 15mg ed and then go to 20mg ed. You would be doing way more damage to your liver than phill.
I do however agree with you on one point though…
PHILL why would you add a dieretic to your current cycle when you already have creatine. The creatine already sucks all the water it can grab onto in your body into your muscles, while the dieretic will try and make you piss out all the water you have. On one extreme end this could possibly dry out your organs and cause some serious problems: on the other end you will definantly be making the creatine you take just about uselss by not keeping enough water in your system.
So thanks for letting me speak, get rid of the dandylion root(sp, and keep the cycle information coming.
DA
Thanks for the crit. I just have a few responses for you. Most of which have actually been answered in the thread but I will repeat them. Not a prob.
Oh and thanks for looking out for my health as I am that is why I have taken months to research and read everything I could on this and the other compounds I am doing.
O.K.
I am taking in and had posted, this 1+ gallons of plain ole water, 1 gal. green tea, plus the water in my w/o and pwo drinks, and my morning coffee, the I may have a diet soda if I find room. More than enough liquids. This was due to the possible liver hepatoxicity.
As far as the milk thistle, nac, and actually R-ala not ala yes they are all also in the post under the og. plan I posted. Plus a handfull of other supps including digestive enzimes, high amounts of C, well a sh*& pot of sups.
Actually yesterday I posted I am not going to continue the 2 a days. Now I am not against them and have had great results with them in the past. But, the recovery ability of M1T I find is much over rated. That is why I decided to go back to a one a day program. Also on the 2 a day I personally wouldnt run them over two weeks at any given time even with assistance. Just because you are on doesnt mean you cant overtrain.
Once again thanks for looking out though.
[quote]3. Whatever you do…don’t add the 1Test. Obviousely you haven’t done enough research on these things. If you did, then you would know that M1T is 1 Test except it’s the methylated version. By adding 1Test, you’ll be lucky to still have any nuts by the time you finish your cycle. Slow down dude, you’re gonna kill your balls, liver, and possibly yourself. I’ve been lifting for a couple years, and I’m a former fatty as well. Old stats:
5’11" 260 lbs. @ 20% BF [/quote]
O.k. on this issue if you had done your research and actually read the thread that you have taken the time to comment on you would see that I had done my research. I am adding 1 test but not at the same time as M1T. I am giving the liver a break during the 3rd and 4th weeks and running 1 test and 4AD, both of which dont have the liver issues. Then it has also been shown that M1T while being a methyl of 1-test actually responds like a totally different compound. They are finding that by metylating all these different PH’s they are actually creating totally new compounds not simply the same one better orally available.
Now the issue about being shut down. I cant argue there. Yes I will be shut down pretty hard. But that is all part of the process. To make good gains I find that it is better to run a longer cycle. With the two week mini cycles you just start to get REAL gains and then you come off. The longer cycles produce much more progress, but also require a lot more planning and intellegence, patients, and restraint, to run a quality PCT regimine.
A lot of planning and preparation goes a long way. PCT is in my opinion more important than the on time. It takes a lot more work to actually keep what you gain off the cycle than it does to put it on during the cycle.
Hope that clears a few things up for you.
Actually no. Simply taking what I have found through reading and research to be effective, and no more detrimental to my health (which is my # 1 concern, this game is a long one and cant be finished in 1 inning), but will add to the positives of the cycle. In my opinion of course.
As far as your cycle look O.K to me I guess. But like I stated I find the longer cycles a bit better. On top of that they are really not going to supress me any worse in the long run. On your plan you will be shut down pretty damn hard after three weeks on. Then you are going to PCT for three weeks. Just about the time you get your boy (hopefully) producing some respectable level of test again, Surprise, you shut em down again. Not much better in my opinion.
I would rather shut them down one time. Then take my time running a long 6-8 week PCT and then take a break for another month or two. Whenever I fine time to run a proper cycle and build off of what I learned about these compounds through this cycle as to have even more success.
Once again thanks for your input, and all. Any suggestions are welcome as I have always stated.
Oh and the reasoning for the creatine is yes water retention in the muscle tissue. That is not the complaint. The complaint I have is the sub-q (right under the skin) water. Also it is good to be have your creatine already in you and loaded for helping keep gains as you continue useing it during PCT. It will keep a nice level of water in your LBM that the PH was giving you.
Keep us all posted on your cycle, hope it goes great. I would like to say you might add some probiotic to your supps. Not only will it help with digestion of hypercaloric diet but also helps ward off possible infection and such form the possible slowing of the liver.
W/O= Chest and abs (60 secs rest)
Bench ( 3 warm up sets then 5x8-10), incline db press (4x8-10), flat fly (4x8-10), decline bench (3x8-12), cable crossover (3x12), weighted incline situps (4xMax), leg raise (3x15-20), cable side bend (4x45)
Total time 1hr 20 mins
Sides = Light heart burn feeling after taking the M1T that?s about it. BLOAT also.
General B.S.= No bad sides except the annoying ass bloat. It is pretty cool to play with though. You can grab an area and squeeze it and feel/watch the water move. Then when you let go your mark stays there. You otta see the rings that stay for hrs from my socks. The dandelion seemed to help just enough to keep my face from blowing up.
O.k. on a more interesting note the work out kicked my A$%. I have never been one to try out one of those bodybuilding type routines. I have always done an upper lower split, or full body workouts and varied the reps, sets, load, etc.
Well I gotta say I will be throwing in this type of routine once or twice a year. The volume and short rest about killed me but I LIKED it. That on top of the fact I have been doing almost purely strenght based training for 3 months up till last week.
I feel much better than the two a days though. I was getting to the point I was dreading the second w/o. The recovery just didn?t seem to be there. I liked the one longer kill ya tell ya die from it routine.
Either tomorrow or the next day I will add in low dose 4AD so as to be primed for the higher doses during the next two weeks starting Monday. Should create a nice pick me up to the w/o also.
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions all. They really are a help, not only to me but others who possibly read this to get info.
Oh, I also forgot to add that I upped the k/cals 100 more 2 days ago after realizing this weight was all water. A just wanted a little more assurance of having enough to hopefully build something worth keeping under this layer. So I added in 100 k/cals of pure hydro whey. 50 right when I wake and an extra 50 during w/o.
W/O= Back and abs (60 sec rest)
Wide lat pdowns (5x8-10), T bar row (4x8-10), Full ROM pdowns (4x8-10), BO Rows (3x10), Reverse Flyes (4x8-10), Deadlift (4x10-12), Hyper ex. (3 x 12-15), cable crunch (4x50), incline situps (3x25), twist (100rep per side)
1hr 30minsTotal time
Sides = BLOAT, Well seems the good comes with the bad. I woke up and felt like I drank all night long, my damn liver (lower back) was aching. I immediately drank a gallon of water as fast as I could and made several trips to the john. Went away. Then on taking the morning 10mgs and the night 5mg I am receiving this so called constant pump feeling. Not painfull pumps or anything. Even using a pencil will cause your arm to feel tight. I gotta say though that it is pretty fishy that the liver pain and so called wonderfull pumps come together. I have to say I am less than impressed. This out of control bloating along with the potential toxicity aint worth it yet. I also doubled my liver supps and anti oxidants and even more damn liquids today just to be safe. I will say at this point you can receive better results without the probs. From a 4AD and 1-TEST stack. I am looking forward to Monday when I start that and possibly receive some good returns. Oh forgot to say seems the recovery issue has come also. I should have been one sore SOB today after that chest workout but not bad at all.
General B.S.= Work out was great. Once again kicked my butt. I couldn?t believe the damn bump and go deads for 4 sets 10-12 with one minute rest. Boy that was am eye opener. My lower back had massive pump for hrs after word. I felt like a fool for having to use them but I did use hooks for the first time on the deads. My grip would have never made it without them. The addition of the 4AD was a good pick me up. Hopefully it will give me some returns. I checked BP 1 hr after dose when I was feeling the pumps and figured it would be off the charts but not bad. So the only thing I am noticing is liver issues and this bloat which I really do think has to do with the liver and kidneys not processing fast enough to get the water out. If after tomorrow I am still feeling the liver issue in the AM I am considering dropping down to 10mg again for the last 2 days, and if I don?t receive something great in these last 3 days and then weeks 5 and 6 I will have to say this stuff is not worth it. It may be a option to stack at a low 5mg dose with other Ph?s for the added pump but I am not sure it is worth the danger.
Just my little rant for you all.
The w/o was great though!!!
W/O= BB Curls (5x6-10), preacher curls (4x10), DB curls ( 4x8-10), chins (3xMax), Close grip bench (4x10), weighted dips (4xMax), Pushdowns (4x10), Bench dips (4xMax), reverse pushdowns (4x10), cable crunch (2x25) cable side bend (100 per side)
1hr 30minsTotal time
Sides = (morning)Well didn?t have the liver pain when I woke up. The high amounts of liver supps. And 31/2 plus gallons of water and tea seemed to do the trick, it did lead to more water weight in the morning. This bloat is weird though. My damn legs are bloated as hell. My feet barely fit in my shoes, mainly just the right one. I can leave finger prints in my leg by pushing on it.
(Afternoon) Ankles are the same size as my calfs damn near. Full of water. This is not like the water you usually get from a PH, a little everywhere. This is like a bottle filling up. The only thing like it I have seen is when someones kidneys and liver begin to shut down. Not processing the liquids fast enough, so they slowly fillup. That is what is happeneing. From about my nipples down I am blown up with water above that I am still veiny and even more solid looking. Also my right foot is numb now as well as my left arm. To make a long story short I am stopping the M1T NOW. In my opinion it is simply poison in a bottle. I am switching to the transdermals and running the course of the cycle with them. That is unless this water doesn?t begin to subside after a few days. My health just means more to me than a possible few lbs of gains.
General B.S.= So form here on out it will be a 4AD and 1-test cycle. Sorry guys but that stuff aint worth it in my opinion. Had a good workout. Shoulders and legs tomorrow, then a day off. I am going to try and spend a large amount of time out in the heat tomorrow to try and sweat out some of this stuff. Keep slamming the supps and water.
Figured I would give you a first morning update since stopping that crap. I woke up 4 lbs lighter than yesterday. I went to bed with a hell of a head ache and gut ache. Feeling much better now. I am getting a waist again, still some water. My right ankle last night was a whopping 12" woke up and it was allready down to 9 1/4". I am sure I will gain a little of that water back as I drink throughout the day but hopefully my internals kick back in.
I think the main prob. with the stuff has been misinterpreted. I think it effects the kidneys which leads then to not processing water fast enogh and making organs starve for water. That is why the liver pains come. Just like after a long night of drinking. Once you down some water after such a night your liver feel better. I have no proof nut that is my hypothesis.
Now I hope I can actually make some good progress on the real PH’s I just started. I am happy to be shedding that damn water all ready.
If you all decide to try this stuff I would say start LOW and be very cautious. It may be an alright supp to take say 5mg pre w/o, but I am not sure it is worth the possible damage and really dont think I gained anything but water off the crap.
I’m not sure exactly why it makes people hold water cuz I bloat like crazy yet my joints and skin dry out like ive been taken a diuretic all day. Make sense to you? Cuz it sure as hell doesnt to me. Luckily for me I react very well to all phs and ps’. I think I natural am on the lower side of the testosterone range normally. Tribex gave me 7 pounds in a month. But back to the water issue, I’ve never had the water drift to my legs. Hmmm, who knows? Glad to see things are better for ya already. So are you running the 1test/4ad for the next month? Or are you just running the 4ad for the next two weeks and then adding the 1test? The transdermals always took me a good week and a half-two weeks to even see any difference so I’d suggest running them all the way thru if you aren’t already. Hope this goes better for ya bro.
My workout today was Kick a%^ as compared to on the M1T. The pumps were real and I was sweating my a$% off. That was another issue on the M1T it took forever to work up a sweat.
I also went out early today and went for a 45min walk with long underwear on and my ski pants and a hoodie. Slamed a big ole glass of surge befor I went. I was soaked. Figured this might help.
Everything isnt straight as of yet. Still filling up with water a bit in the feet and on up but allready much better.
I’ll keep this running. I am keeping the 4AD @ 500mg for a few days as it makes you hold water as well befor moving it up to the planned 700mg.
W/O= Shoulders and legs
Military(3x10), Lat Raise(5x10-12), bent-raise(1xmax), Upright rows(3x10), db side raise(3x15), Box Squat 1? below parallel(5x10), sig, leg ex(4x10-12), step ups(3x10), Hack squat(3x10), sing. Leg curl(3x10-12)
1hr 30minsTotal time
Sides = Well I was still bloated to a point when I woke but much better. My right ankle went down from 12" last night to 9" this morn. And I had somewhat of a waist again. That all left as the day went on of course slowly filling up again, but not as bad. Ankle only went up to 10". Felt quite a bit better today all around. Slight head ache at time and a little lower back and joint pain later in the day but not to terrible.
General bs.= Workout was outstanding. I was ready to go from the start. Attacked the weights poured sweat. Once again I was about ready to die when I was done but I finished. The leg portion was killer starting with the squats and then later hack squats all sets with 60 secs. Rest OUCH. It was good though. Day off tomorrow. Seems like the old reliable PH?s are treating me a little better. Just hope this water straightens out in a few days.
Oh also did my best to sweat several time today which could have been a big reason for the lower amount of weird bottle filling bloat. I started the day with a 45min walk in my long underwear, Ski pants and a hoodie. I made sure to take some surge befor this as I am still wanting to bulk just not my ankles. Then later I layed in the sun for an hour, then sat outside in multi layers of clothes, and ended off with a nice little jont about the neighborhood.
Just a quick mid day update. I think things might be starting to straighten out. I am having to hit the john quite a bit again. Befor I was drinking the same HUGE amount but not losing it. Now I am going much more often .
W/O= Day off
Morning cardio (45 minswalking, in sweat suit)
1hr 30minsTotal time
Sides = Well I was still bloated to a point when I woke but much better. My right ankle to 9 1/2this morn.
General bs.= As well as sweating for an hr this morning I sat in a sauna for an hour. Man it is like someone could put a spicket in me and just dump water out. After an hour I was still pouring out water but I had to go. It was also weird the first ten mins or so the sweat really burned. Well I just figd this may help.
Did measurements and pics today @ the 2 week point. The only measurements I really count for anything at this point is from the belly button up, from their down I still look like the Nutty Professor, not as bad though. I can feel my foot again as of around noon. This is a good thing.
Well back to it tomorrow then 1 more day off and 4 in a row again.
Where are you getting all this water from? I have been on 10mg M1T and 450mg 4AD for 8 days now and I have had almost no water retetion. I have had very little sides in general. The lethargy and being tired comes and goes. Odly enough I feel more tired when I take the 4AD than when I don’t. Yesterday I lowered the dosage down to 300mg 4AD and felt fine all day. I think plain old caffine does away with any negative sides for me.
I have had great workouts and awsome recovery and I have gained about 7lbs. The mirror is telling me that 4bls of it is spilt between water and fat and the other 3lbs or so is muscle.
Well just wanted to chime in and when I do a longer cycle in a month or so I will start my own thread instead of talking all over Phill’s.
Keep us informed and keep cutting the water. DA
Just had to psot this because I am a happy mofo. It is 1:00pm and I just looked down and can somewhat still se my ankle bones. WOO HOO. Also my sweat has quit burning me. I am going to stick at this K/cal for the rest of this week while trying to get this water straight and then imagine I will have to go up another couple hundred. My chest and arms have not showed any signs of fat gain. Measurements are up though.
Are you drinking a LOT of water. Also remember ppl react different to different things. I know that it made me fill up and shut down my kidneys. I am on 1-test and 4ad and doing great and straightening out. Much better pumps allready and no toxic issue.
Just my 2 cc.
Be carefull and listen to your body. Nothing really started hurting on me until day 11. Befor that I had water but no pain. The it all went to hell. I quit and it has taken 4 days to feel my foot again.
I forgot to mention in the training stuff I have also been doing the “100 Reps to Bigger muscles” program by CW for the ole, bi’s for a week now while on this. I strongly suggest it. So far it has actually been best it seems for recovery and joints.