$15 to Flip a Burger

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

No but there are a lot of business owners (myself included) on here who understand what it takes to run one.

Clearly the Unions who look at these people with dollar signs in their eyes…do not.

If I had a group of expendable employees come into my office and demand a doubling of their pay, I would wish them well in their new job.[/quote]

This lol.

In American Liberal Utopia 30k a year is “cost of living”. lol

Take a look around the world and complain you ONLY get $7 an hour to stand around and pull chunks of almost beef out of a microwave. [/quote]

Methinks that they are about to get a real harsh lesson in supply and demand.

62

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

No but there are a lot of business owners (myself included) on here who understand what it takes to run one.

Clearly the Unions who look at these people with dollar signs in their eyes…do not.

If I had a group of expendable employees come into my office and demand a doubling of their pay, I would wish them well in their new job.[/quote]

This lol.

In American Liberal Utopia 30k a year is “cost of living”. lol

Take a look around the world and complain you ONLY get $7 an hour to stand around and pull chunks of almost beef out of a microwave. [/quote]

Methinks that they are about to get a real harsh lesson in supply and demand.[/quote]

Lots of supply at $7 and their employer not demanding them to work there anymore.

63

Unions in industries that are virtually indispensable are having a hard time maintaining ranks and fast food workers think that they’re going to pull off a coup?

They really are uneducated. I’m guessing that a bunch of them are about to get wised up pretty quickly though.

64

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Some people haven’t the slightest idea what “flipping supply and demand” means. [/quote]

I get it I just don’t see the reason to be against a worker strike in America. If you go try to get a raise today I’m not going to be mad at you. They are taking a risk and free to do so. If McDonald’s fires them that is the risk they take for striking. They might get what they are after. They might get fired. It just seems like people are really mad at them for some reason and I’m trying to get it. [/quote]

I’m all for workers trying to get a raise. Remove all government intervention from the economy and I would be praying for these folks to get the raise they are after. It would be their fair market value if they received it at that point.[/quote]

cool robbery would be legal
[/quote]

No. Not even close.

65

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

No but there are a lot of business owners (myself included) on here who understand what it takes to run one.

Clearly the Unions who look at these people with dollar signs in their eyes…do not.

If I had a group of expendable employees come into my office and demand a doubling of their pay, I would wish them well in their new job.[/quote]

This lol.

In American Liberal Utopia 30k a year is “cost of living”. lol

Take a look around the world and complain you ONLY get $7 an hour to stand around and pull chunks of almost beef out of a microwave. [/quote]

Methinks that they are about to get a real harsh lesson in supply and demand.[/quote]

Lots of supply at $7 and their employer not demanding them to work there anymore.
[/quote]

The largest issue with all this, pricing and other bullshit aside the death of innovation through intrinsic incentive to improve one’s position.

Do burger flippers contribute to society? Yes, yes they do, and we need people to do it as long as anyone wants to pay for a burger. Do they contribute to society to the same degree that a lawyer, doctor, plumber, CPA student, Electrician, mason, engineer, inventor or even mildly successful entrepreneur? No, not even close.

So we are wildly better off paying people lower wages to do low skilled work, because they don’t add as much value to society. Then in turn, when they want higher wages they have the incentive to go become a writer, coder, tester, miner, owner, admin or other such position that pays them more.

You grow the pie by people improving their value they add, not by giving them more for doing the same thing. Giving them more just shuffles the slice size, but the pie stays the same.

People understood this over 200 years ago, now… Not so much.

66

I’d prefer a law that provides a wage just high enough to cover the absolute essential cost of living or full time employment, if they work longer than 6 months.

I say this because they do provide a service, the same service most companies want from an employee. Someone who doesn’t steal, comes in does their job with quality and consistency. While people at higher paying jobs do stupid things and commit crimes, it’s at a higher rate with these low wage positions. Anybody who has ever had to hire a low wage employee knows how hard it is to find a good one.

At the same time someone who is unproven comes in to flip a burger should not get double the minimum wage salary, they should have to prove themselves.

67

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Someone who doesn’t steal, comes in does their job with quality and consistency.

Anybody who has ever had to hire a low wage employee knows how hard it is to find a good one.

At the same time someone who is unproven comes in to flip a burger should not get double the minimum wage salary, they should have to prove themselves.
[/quote]

Right. At this point, if the manager values their work and attitude, she or he should give that employee a raise. And then that employee has begun his or her climb up the latter.

I get it sucks to make dirt money, but life isn’t fair. Some people have to work 100 times harder to make 100x less than others. No amount of central planning will ever change this fact. It is nature. You can’t escape it, change it or prevent it. There is no “fair”. Human civilization has been this way since the dawn of man.

68

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Someone who doesn’t steal, comes in does their job with quality and consistency.

Anybody who has ever had to hire a low wage employee knows how hard it is to find a good one.

At the same time someone who is unproven comes in to flip a burger should not get double the minimum wage salary, they should have to prove themselves.
[/quote]

Right. At this point, if the manager values their work and attitude, she or he should give that employee a raise. And then that employee has begun his or her climb up the latter.

I get it sucks to make dirt money, but life isn’t fair. Some people have to work 100 times harder to make 100x less than others. No amount of central planning will ever change this fact. It is nature. You can’t escape it, change it or prevent it. There is no “fair”. Human civilization has been this way since the dawn of man. [/quote]

Survival of the Fittest.

70

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
If these people think they can improve their job I have no idea why it’s laughable.

[/quote]

Because they think their labor is worth $15 an hour. That is laughable.

They flip burgers FFS. I barely made more than that when I started at a professional firm after getting a degree. [/quote]

They are probably aiming high like any attempted negotiation does. What in your opinion is the magic amount they should think their labor is worth? And why are we against them trying to improve that amount? [/quote]

Their relative lack of skill (they flip burgers here) is more likely than not worth less than the $7.25 they make.

Their labor is worth what the market will pay for it. [/quote]

Truthfully though, “flipping burgers” or more generally working in the kitchen is harder than it seems. A lot of the work is very dirty and labor intensive. There aren’t high skill requirements, but other people don’t want to do it, specifically people would rather work as cashiers than do the dirty work for the same pay.

In high school I worked at Target in the backroom and we made 2$/hour more than cashiers because our work was more labor intensive; less people wanted to do it in favor of working registers or doing sales floor duty.

I’m not saying minimum wage should be higher. But if all employees in a certain setting have the same wage, and some have harder work than others, I’m not surprised this kind of thing happens

Edit: A better situation would be if minimum wage were actually lower, and the more labor intensive work paid above minimum wage

71

The McDonalds pay in Norway as of 2011 was:
Under 17: 14,6$
17?18: 16,3$
18?20: 18,7$
Over 20: 22,2$
Evening addition: 1,7$
Weekend addition: 3,2$

One would normally pay 36% income tax if making more than 5900$ in a year.
It is acceptable for students at least. I had worse paid jobs before getting my first degree.

The price at McDonalds is quite a bit higher here though.

72

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
If these people think they can improve their job I have no idea why it’s laughable.

[/quote]

Because they think their labor is worth $15 an hour. That is laughable.

They flip burgers FFS. I barely made more than that when I started at a professional firm after getting a degree. [/quote]

They are probably aiming high like any attempted negotiation does. What in your opinion is the magic amount they should think their labor is worth? And why are we against them trying to improve that amount? [/quote]

Their relative lack of skill (they flip burgers here) is more likely than not worth less than the $7.25 they make.

Their labor is worth what the market will pay for it. [/quote]

Truthfully though, “flipping burgers” or more generally working in the kitchen is harder than it seems. A lot of the work is very dirty and labor intensive. There aren’t high skill requirements, but other people don’t want to do it, specifically people would rather work as cashiers than do the dirty work for the same pay.

In high school I worked at Target in the backroom and we made 2$/hour more than cashiers because our work was more labor intensive; less people wanted to do it in favor of working registers or doing sales floor duty.

I’m not saying minimum wage should be higher. But if all employees in a certain setting have the same wage, and some have harder work than others, I’m not surprised this kind of thing happens

Edit: A better situation would be if minimum wage were actually lower, and the more labor intensive work paid above minimum wage[/quote]

I agree with you’re last line, however saying working in a kitchen is labor is just false. It may be dirty hot work, but that shit is not a labor job, as evidenced by the pay.

Also, where I live 15/hr is what they start SKILLED trade apprentices/greenhorns…

73

[quote]espenl wrote:
The McDonalds pay in Norway as of 2011 was:
Under 17: 14,6$
17?18: 16,3$
18?20: 18,7$
Over 20: 22,2$
Evening addition: 1,7$
Weekend addition: 3,2$

One would normally pay 36% income tax if making more than 5900$ in a year.
It is acceptable for students at least. I had worse paid jobs before getting my first degree.

The price at McDonalds is quite a bit higher here though.[/quote]

Hey would mind clarifying the evening and weekends? Is that just on top of regular pay? It loks like 1.70% and 3.20$ but I cant tell, thank you.

74

[quote]pushharder wrote:
H Factor, the true blue libertarian [snicker], is whining about the free market paying large corporation CEO’s well? Whodathunk?[/quote]

Where was I whining about it? Merely pointing out stuff. Everyone was taking it as a guaranteed true gospel that if the lowest paid McDonald’s worker got a raise that prices at McDonald’s had to rise. They don’t anymore than if the highest paid McDonald’s employee gets a rise. Which is EXACTLY what I pointed out. Prices for goods don’t have to increase with an increase in wages at any point. If they did anytime anyone got a raise the seller would be forced to increase the price of it’s good as well. We know that isn’t true.

I haven’t said ANYTHING anti free market in here. In fact I think the people upset about workers striking are anti-freedom. Anyone is full well to strike and McDonald’s or any other employer should be free to do whatever they want. Like I said if McDonald’s fires every single one of them well that’s the risk they took. If McDonald’s gives them a raise it worked for them. People being irate was what surprised me more than anything.

Since we’re talking about adding value it’d be cool if you ever added some to a thread instead of just finding personal attacks in every post. Heck a trained monkey could do what you do. Flame and derail on though Push. That way we are getting maximum expected value out of you.

75

[quote]H factor wrote:
If they did anytime anyone got a raise the seller would be forced to increase the price of it’s good as well. We know that isn’t true.

[/quote]

No, what you wrote isn’t true. Not at the level of detail you wrote it.

76

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]espenl wrote:
The McDonalds pay in Norway as of 2011 was:
Under 17: 14,6$
17?18: 16,3$
18?20: 18,7$
Over 20: 22,2$
Evening addition: 1,7$
Weekend addition: 3,2$

One would normally pay 36% income tax if making more than 5900$ in a year.
It is acceptable for students at least. I had worse paid jobs before getting my first degree.

The price at McDonalds is quite a bit higher here though.[/quote]

Hey would mind clarifying the evening and weekends? Is that just on top of regular pay? It loks like 1.70% and 3.20$ but I cant tell, thank you.
[/quote]
It is on top of regular pay.

77

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
H Factor, the true blue libertarian [snicker], is whining about the free market paying large corporation CEO’s well? Whodathunk?[/quote]

Where was I whining about it? Merely pointing out stuff. Everyone was taking it as a guaranteed true gospel that if the lowest paid McDonald’s worker got a raise that prices at McDonald’s had to rise. They don’t anymore than if the highest paid McDonald’s employee gets a rise. Which is EXACTLY what I pointed out. Prices for goods don’t have to increase with an increase in wages at any point. If they did anytime anyone got a raise the seller would be forced to increase the price of it’s good as well. We know that isn’t true.

I haven’t said ANYTHING anti free market in here. In fact I think the people upset about workers striking are anti-freedom. Anyone is full well to strike and McDonald’s or any other employer should be free to do whatever they want. Like I said if McDonald’s fires every single one of them well that’s the risk they took. If McDonald’s gives them a raise it worked for them. People being irate was what surprised me more than anything.

Since we’re talking about adding value it’d be cool if you ever added some to a thread instead of just finding personal attacks in every post. Heck a trained monkey could do what you do. Flame and derail on though Push. That way we are getting maximum expected value out of you. [/quote]

How dare you ? disagree with the Circle Jerk Society . Their standards are proved time and again time by theoir own standards :slight_smile:

78

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
If these people think they can improve their job I have no idea why it’s laughable.

[/quote]

Because they think their labor is worth $15 an hour. That is laughable.

They flip burgers FFS. I barely made more than that when I started at a professional firm after getting a degree. [/quote]

They are probably aiming high like any attempted negotiation does. What in your opinion is the magic amount they should think their labor is worth? And why are we against them trying to improve that amount? [/quote]

Their relative lack of skill (they flip burgers here) is more likely than not worth less than the $7.25 they make.

Their labor is worth what the market will pay for it. [/quote]

Truthfully though, “flipping burgers” or more generally working in the kitchen is harder than it seems. A lot of the work is very dirty and labor intensive. There aren’t high skill requirements, but other people don’t want to do it, specifically people would rather work as cashiers than do the dirty work for the same pay.

In high school I worked at Target in the backroom and we made 2$/hour more than cashiers because our work was more labor intensive; less people wanted to do it in favor of working registers or doing sales floor duty.

I’m not saying minimum wage should be higher. But if all employees in a certain setting have the same wage, and some have harder work than others, I’m not surprised this kind of thing happens

Edit: A better situation would be if minimum wage were actually lower, and the more labor intensive work paid above minimum wage[/quote]

I agree with you’re last line, however saying working in a kitchen is labor is just false. It may be dirty hot work, but that shit is not a labor job, as evidenced by the pay.

Also, where I live 15/hr is what they start SKILLED trade apprentices/greenhorns…[/quote]

Fair enough, cooking itself is not labor, however the people working the kitchen have to clean it up too meaning they’re hauling out all the lard and garbage at the end of the night, cleaning all the appliances and utensils etc. It is more labor intensive than working the register. While not labor intensive, I believe many minimum wage jobs are even LESS labor intensive than working the kitchen, which was the basis of my main point

79

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
If these people think they can improve their job I have no idea why it’s laughable.

[/quote]

Because they think their labor is worth $15 an hour. That is laughable.

They flip burgers FFS. I barely made more than that when I started at a professional firm after getting a degree. [/quote]

They are probably aiming high like any attempted negotiation does. What in your opinion is the magic amount they should think their labor is worth? And why are we against them trying to improve that amount? [/quote]

Their relative lack of skill (they flip burgers here) is more likely than not worth less than the $7.25 they make.

Their labor is worth what the market will pay for it. [/quote]

Truthfully though, “flipping burgers” or more generally working in the kitchen is harder than it seems. A lot of the work is very dirty and labor intensive. There aren’t high skill requirements, but other people don’t want to do it, specifically people would rather work as cashiers than do the dirty work for the same pay.

In high school I worked at Target in the backroom and we made 2$/hour more than cashiers because our work was more labor intensive; less people wanted to do it in favor of working registers or doing sales floor duty.

I’m not saying minimum wage should be higher. But if all employees in a certain setting have the same wage, and some have harder work than others, I’m not surprised this kind of thing happens

Edit: A better situation would be if minimum wage were actually lower, and the more labor intensive work paid above minimum wage[/quote]

I agree with you’re last line, however saying working in a kitchen is labor is just false. It may be dirty hot work, but that shit is not a labor job, as evidenced by the pay.

Also, where I live 15/hr is what they start SKILLED trade apprentices/greenhorns…[/quote]

Fair enough, cooking itself is not labor, however the people working the kitchen have to clean it up too meaning they’re hauling out all the lard and garbage at the end of the night, cleaning all the appliances and utensils etc. It is more labor intensive than working the register. While not labor intensive, I believe many minimum wage jobs are even LESS labor intensive than working the kitchen, which was the basis of my main point[/quote]

I got you man. Im just saying there a degrees of labor and to call a restaurant job labor is a misnomer. The job may involve labor but it isn’t a labor job. Sorry for nitpicking, I just had this discussion with a friend who said serving drinks is labor…

80

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
If these people think they can improve their job I have no idea why it’s laughable.

[/quote]

Because they think their labor is worth $15 an hour. That is laughable.

They flip burgers FFS. I barely made more than that when I started at a professional firm after getting a degree. [/quote]

They are probably aiming high like any attempted negotiation does. What in your opinion is the magic amount they should think their labor is worth? And why are we against them trying to improve that amount? [/quote]

Their relative lack of skill (they flip burgers here) is more likely than not worth less than the $7.25 they make.

Their labor is worth what the market will pay for it. [/quote]

Truthfully though, “flipping burgers” or more generally working in the kitchen is harder than it seems. A lot of the work is very dirty and labor intensive. There aren’t high skill requirements, but other people don’t want to do it, specifically people would rather work as cashiers than do the dirty work for the same pay.

In high school I worked at Target in the backroom and we made 2$/hour more than cashiers because our work was more labor intensive; less people wanted to do it in favor of working registers or doing sales floor duty.

I’m not saying minimum wage should be higher. But if all employees in a certain setting have the same wage, and some have harder work than others, I’m not surprised this kind of thing happens

Edit: A better situation would be if minimum wage were actually lower, and the more labor intensive work paid above minimum wage[/quote]

I agree with you’re last line, however saying working in a kitchen is labor is just false. It may be dirty hot work, but that shit is not a labor job, as evidenced by the pay.

Also, where I live 15/hr is what they start SKILLED trade apprentices/greenhorns…[/quote]

Fair enough, cooking itself is not labor, however the people working the kitchen have to clean it up too meaning they’re hauling out all the lard and garbage at the end of the night, cleaning all the appliances and utensils etc. It is more labor intensive than working the register. While not labor intensive, I believe many minimum wage jobs are even LESS labor intensive than working the kitchen, which was the basis of my main point[/quote]

No. I cleaned up puke, beer, liquor, broken bottles, piss, and a bunch of other crap for less than 7$ an hour in a bar as a security man, and for $2.15/hour as a bartender when no security was there. Not only is flipping burgers not labor, it’s not even that gross when you have to clean up in the grand scope of things. Give me the choice between sticking my hand forearm deep in a sink clogged with puke for 30 MINUTES while trying to unclog the U pipe in a bathroom without a ventilator (actually happened)…or cleaning piles of human shit off floors and walls (also true)…& carrying out grease traps, I know exactly what I am choosing.

That said I dont mind your main point, which was that labor intensive jobs should probly be paid slightly more than non intensive jobs in a minimum wage environment. unfortunately that is not applicable because of the fact that the workers are not demanding graded pay, they are demanding doubling of pay for everyone. and in any case I believe that the cashier/drive thru positions are used as incentive in many cases for people who are good employees or on time, due exactly to what you said above (say to experienced workers instead of a raise, “you get the easy job because you’ve been here a while”)