$15 an Hour to Flip Burgers?

Off Topic
42

People always give the Econ 101 argument against min. wage (which is usually one of the examples they show in class) while forgetting that it is a theory based on premises (agents are perfectly rational, perfect competition, etc.) that often are not true. Behavioral economics experiments consistently show that people are not perfectly rational, do not have perfect knowledge, etc. The very fact that we consistently have market failures (populations not being served, monopolies, pollution, etc.) underlines the lack of valid premises under which many of these theories hold.

I am not saying min. wage adjustment is the answer to anything, but the basic economics argument against it does not disprove it either. What I think is more important is the signal being sent. Poor people are less represented for a number of reasons (though, namely lack of resources). When you have companies performing well (the Dow has been breaking records this year) and the people do not see this money being passed on via increased jobs, wages, or other forms, they put pressure on government, which is the largest strength of democracy… to help temper “pure” capitalism (and thus, avoid an uprising). This isn’t to say that government does not sometimes overreach and that populism isn’t a dangerous path, but it is unavoidable to a certain extent. I believe corporate taxes are currently at “an all time high,” but when loopholes are calculated, they’re actually quite low… this was echoed by Jake complaining as a small business owner w/ out access to the loopholes.

43

[quote]theuofh wrote:

People like to think they are middle class, but unless you have some significant wealth including property, a large amount of stocks, and a bunch of liquid assets, you are probably not as middle class as you think you are. This is especially true if you are under 30, and even if you have a good job and modest stock holdings, you are losing ground in this economic environment. Even if kids these days do everything right, and get a little lucky, a modest retirement is probably the best they can do, if they are even that lucky. [/quote]

Oh please. You sound like and FDR talking head lol. They said all the same bullshit 100 years ago, and the last 30 years (melt down included) has seen American & almost all “free” modern societies as prosperous as an majority of citizens have ever been in arguably any time in human history.

The poorest American is mega rich compared to the poorest in India…

Look at what comes standard in a Honda today verse 1980…

Things are much better than they were 10, 20, 30 40 and so on years ago.

This is propaganda to fill vote coffers of a certain political party.

lol, no. Please show where law dictates dividends.

More propaganda language.

This is called “keeping costs down” unless you want to pay 10-30% more for everything, companies HAVE to do this. On top of the face people get raises everyday…

Big picture? How so?

44

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
When you have companies performing well (the Dow has been breaking records this year)[/quote]

Doesn’t mean anything.

In fact the rapid increase in DOW and other market indexes is more likely the reaction of institutional and mega investors to QE. In that the market is the only place where you can outpace the hyper inflation they are creating.

DOW increases have as much to do with money supply manipulations than they do company performance.

Probably because they don’t understand what a high stock price means, and that is doesn’t necessarily mean a company has 3 billion to dump into wages.

To bad America isn’t a democracy.

lmao.

People get enough in government transfer to afford an iPhone5 and 3 tattoos. You think there will be an “uprising”?

Priceless.

Example of “loophole” please

Also please show an example of the calculations you speak of here.

45

Can we just combine the Min Wage thread in PWI with this?

46

[quote]theuofh wrote:

People like to think they are middle class, but unless you have some significant wealth including property, a large amount of stocks, and a bunch of liquid assets, you are probably not as middle class as you think you are. This is especially true if you are under 30, and even if you have a good job and modest stock holdings, you are losing ground in this economic environment. Even if kids these days do everything right, and get a little lucky, a modest retirement is probably the best they can do, if they are even that lucky.

[/quote]

I know right? People having to suffer through a modest retirement. I propose every American has a right to a luxurious retirement in which they are treated as kings. They shouldn’t have to work very hard for it or take risks either. What are we, savages?

47

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]spiderman739 wrote:
I don’t know if it should be $15 an hour but I think it would have been a good thing if minimum wage had risen to match the rate of inflation.[/quote]

Dont know if this was addressed

BUT REALLY.

Please take an Economics class[/quote]

Why don’t you give us the Cliff’s notes if you’re a subject matter expert?

I’d also like to point out that the ones in control of the US’s central reserve banking system are mostly PhD economists, and the while the verdict is still out on whether their policies are effective, most indicators are pointing to no.
[/quote]
Since I am a business owner and got busy working I could not answer this.

But Beans got my back and handled it.

Carry on.

48

Here’s me again, with my grade 8, and small economic understanding. That atleast here in Canada, when we opened up our economy 15-20yrs ago to free trade with other nations, when we acept they’re goods, we have to acept they’re economy. I don’t undersatand how people can’t grasp, that if we buy our shirts from a nation paying 2$ an hour, we can no longer get 20$ hour here. I acept this, I acept that we’ve had to much for too long, while they’ve had to little.

An uneducated man working in an automotive plant, ends up with a house, cottage, cars trucks, bikes boats, toys. While people can’t eat. We opened free trade, now the world economy has to balance out. I work hard, and I’m happy to be able to provide a decent warm house ( not to big) one car for me and my wife to share, not all the extra’s, so the global economy can equal out, and rather than me have everything, while other’s have nothing. I have enough, while other’s have enough.

The goverments opened up free trade to reap the benifits, and now complain, because of the consiquenses. I’m good with it, but don’t try to fix it by proping up the economy. This only makes it worse, things are going to get wore before they get better. Generations before us had to much, we have to acept this. If you have a job, any job, if you have food in the fridge, roof over your head, and shoes on your kids feet. Be happy with this, it’s more than most have.

We can’t live like our parents did, people need to acept this. The worlds leveling out, this is bad for us, but good for other’s. this is how I look at it. My simple undestanding. It really doesn’t worry me, because I’m a go getter, and I don’t need to be rich, just happy. i’ll always provide, no matter how bad the economy gets, it’s what I do, but people that have been pampered can’t accept this, and want the goverment to save them. I don’t know it’s my 2cets

49

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]spiderman739 wrote:
I don’t know if it should be $15 an hour but I think it would have been a good thing if minimum wage had risen to match the rate of inflation.[/quote]

Dont know if this was addressed

BUT REALLY.

Please take an Economics class[/quote]

Why don’t you give us the Cliff’s notes if you’re a subject matter expert?

[/quote]

Min wage increase is an increase in costs. This increase in costs comes without an increase in productivity. So this means it is a net sunk cost to the company. Every dollar more in wage paid costs the company $1.30 or so… That additional overhead is more sunk costs.

Once the company is forced to increase costs, without letting people go, they are forced to pass those increased costs to consumers through prices. So this means higher prices for the same goods (remember, there is ZERO value added through the increased pay. Earned raises are value added because the person earning it actually earned it by adding value or increasing productivity.) Increase in price for the same goods is inflation.

[/quote]

Beans I would like your take on this please…

A man named Ron Unz says the increased prices to consumers will not deter people from buying those goods.

Walmart is Americaâ??s largest private employer and 300,000 of its workers have average wages of just $8.75 per hour, forcing many of them to receive food stamps and other government welfare benefits to survive. But if a minimum wage hike boosted their pay to at least $12 per hour, Walmart could cover the costs by a one-time price rise of just 1.1 percent, and the average Walmart shopper would only pay an extra $12.50 per year. Meanwhile, a $12 minimum wage would increase the incomes of Americaâ??s lower-wage work force by a total of over $150 billion each year, shifting those huge sums from the pockets of the sort of people who donâ??t shop at Walmart to those who do. A minimum wage of $12 per hour would be very good for Walmartâ??s business.

This guy is a Conservative by the way.[/quote]

It would be good for walmarts business only after other businesses raise prices by more than 1.1% (or just go out of business). It only matters how much the wage increase affects their prices in relation to competitors. So if you want walmart (and maybe china) to get richer then this wage increase is a great idea.

50

[quote]Karado wrote:
The best paid Fast Food workers in America are the ones in Costco,
15+ an hour, full health benefits and time and a half on Sundays.
Costco has a Liberal Philosophical bent, contributed
to the Obama elections, and has grown overall as a business about 40%
in the last 5 years regardless of the bad economy…When you treat your
Employees like fuckin’ Human Beings and you take care of them, good things happen.[/quote]

It is not the fact that they supply quality goods and services at decent prices? No it is the employees that check me out, and serve me those free samples. By the way their pizza is really good.

51

^It sounds like you need some of that internet money.

Edit: You assholes need to stop typing so fast damn it!

52

The real truth is in the buying power of the dollar. Today’s income is not much greater than someone’s income in the US in the 1940s if you use the gold standard as a model of inflation (to track how the currency has inflated in relation to what it can purchase). The only reason we are more well off than we were before is because technology is rapidly advancing, making the cost of goods cheaper. If inflation had not gone nuts we could afford even more luxurious lives.

Inflation is the enemy. Who is inflating the economy? The government. The government shut down the economy briefly for what two weeks a month or two ago and nothing happened? Who are these pigs and why are they attempting to turn our economy into Zimbabwe’s?

Why do we continue an unfair trade market with China (not free market at all when you consider we are destroying our job market to fund a communist country that does not respect human rights and is about to own us)?

These are the issues we need to be talking about. Minimum wage is almost irrelevant compared to the impacts these things are having on our economy.

Yes the tax base on small businesses is high. And how can higher taxes even marginally compensate for the debt our federal government is putting us in? I think state governments need to be given more fiscal control and possibly receive less federal regulation - thereby checks and balances may actually work when a room of former goldman sach’s employees in the Treasury office isn’t the only group decided the future living standard of the country’s people.

Forcing a higher minimum wage on employers is just going to raise costs. I know everyone thinks that small business owners live to burn their employees and drive lamborghinis but most of them work double the hours of the average employees for less money per hour unless they are highly lucky and successful in their work.

So I say we shift the discussion to more along the lines of how we get the federal government to stop spending/printing money at the expense of the taxpayer and start giving a shit about how all our goods we buy are imported from a country that buys none of ours and devalues their currency purposely to screw us even more in trade along with treating their own citizens/employees dog crap. If this were the 1960s and the anti communist campaign was going on everyone would be considered a communist based upon what we have allowed ourselves to become. We have no manufacturing. We cannot compete in international markets, especially when we support China who outproduces us via the exploitation above.

IF oil didn’t have to be traded in dollars the dollar would be worthless at this point. It’s time people wake the hell up. Some of my best friends are Chinese - I am not racist. But to call our trade relationship with China “free”, based on “free market ideas” is inaccurate when you look at the tariff inequalities and everything else I mentioned. Unless we can invest in our small business’ abilities and decrease the price of education (for one by not enabling 19 year olds to pay universities 40k a year to go to school), we are screwed. College was affordable before the government decided to step in and raise the loan limits. It’s supply and demand and if people can’t pay 40k a year to go to school well tuition prices will have to come down or alternative schooling will have to be invented. It is the new credit card bubble.

These are the issues that need fixing if our nation stands any hope at having a future generation not entirely dependent on cheap labor and welfare.

53

" …i’ll always provide, no matter how bad the economy gets, it’s what I do, but people that have been pampered can’t accept this, and want the goverment to save them…"
Everyone needs an attitude similar to this

54

The problem started when people began to feel entitled to luxuries and on top of that, as NECESSARY. And what’s funny is the corporations have whole advertising campaigns espousing this attitude.

Try a little experiment. Ask someone if a cell phone is necessary. Invariably, they will say “YES.” That’s all you need to know the mindset of our generation.

55

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
The problem started when people began to feel entitled to luxuries and on top of that, as NECESSARY. And what’s funny is the corporations have whole advertising campaigns espousing this attitude.

Try a little experiment. Ask someone if a cell phone is necessary. Invariably, they will say “YES.” That’s all you need to know the mindset of our generation.[/quote]

Here it is in video format for your viewing pleasure.

56

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
^It sounds like you need some of that internet money.

Edit: You assholes need to stop typing so fast damn it![/quote]

Or maybe you need to type faster. lol…

57

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
^It sounds like you need some of that internet money.

Edit: You assholes need to stop typing so fast damn it![/quote]

Or maybe you need to type faster. lol…
[/quote]

No

58

Automation will take the place of a fast-food worker demanding a $15/hr wage. Ever seen an automotive assembly plant?

It has already begun with Coca-Cola.

59

If Pee Wee can do it, why not McDonalds?

60

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
If Pee Wee can do it, why not McDonalds?

lol