12 Year Old Athlete and Surge?

Nutrition
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Also, to be clearer:

If it sounds like, “Gee, he is being really conservative on this point: it may be true that there is no real knowledge of whether it may be different for kids or not but hey, why not assume it’s okay because it probably is” I did try to cover this in the first post by saying:

But to give fuller disclosure and perhaps greater understand on that:

With pharmaceuticals, there is generally a real problem in actual knowledge regarding new drugs being based only on what is learned in studies of how adults respond to them, and about nothing is typically known how children respond: yet they are prescribed to children anyway.

Of course pharmaceuticals are a somewhat different area but the general principle still applies.

In addition to that being a general fact, quite specifically an example is anti-depressants being prescribed to teens. Not so long ago this started becoming a popular thing to do. A teen is suffering serious problems with depression, prescribe them an anti-depressant.

Well, only problem is it wasn’t know that teens respond differently and an all-too-common outcome from the antidepressant drugs is suicide.

The opposite of what one would naturally figure, and there would be no reason to predict it.

A lot of teens committed suicide beyond the number that would have without the antidepressants.

This kind of thing causes me to be unwilling to assume that something that is good for adults, but isn’t the way nature does it, will necessarily be fine for kids or teens.

Yes, I know that the amounts of sugar (glucose) in Surge are well within the range that American kids frequently consume from junk food, but I am NOT persuaded that it’s demonstrated that such consumption causes them no problems. For example, Type II diabetes used to be unknown in kids, and frank obesity was pretty rare. These days, nearly a third of kids, perhaps, is as fat or fatter than what the fattest kid in school was say 30 years ago. There has got to be some cause, and less exercise alone does not sufficiently explain it. For this reason I am dubious about kids consuming processed sugar in large amounts.

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I’m neither a sports nutritionist or a parent and I claim to be neither. I think this whole thread has gotten a little out of hand to answer a simple question.

Bill, if I may address you as such, I see your point. Children’s bodies are so volatile as is that we have no idea what manipulating levels of hormones might do to them. It’s a good point and one that should be considered in a situation such as this.

As for the whole sucrose vs. glucose thing I think it’s a little excessive. The kid’s 12 and I don’t think drinking chocolate milk vs a protein shake pwo is going to hurt him. Neither do I think regular chocolate milk in his diet is going to make him insulin resistant.

Most of those studies are done in situations that don’t mirror real life at all. I’ve looked at enough studies and manipulated stats long enough to know that can be done with just about any study.

My advice to MSM is this: feed your kid something. No I would use Surge, but if you find it economically feasible I’d use some kind of protein shake product myself.

If all you have on hand is chocolate milk then let him have at it. With as hard as your son is training the difference between sucrose and glucose isn’t going to matter. Now when he gets up to the big leagues then he’ll have a whole team of people custom designing stuff for him anyways.

At any rate, you’re a wonderful parent for going out and trying to find the best for your kid so keep it up. I wish you and your son the best of luck with his hockey.

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If acts such as consuming 100 g sugar at a time is not what is making kids Type II diabetics, then what is?

Of course a single occasion does not cause it.

But if such sugar consumption is the cause, then each incident contributes to it.

Would you say, “Oh sure, if the kid wants to shoot down a quart of regular Coca-Cola at a time (fair comparison because same amount of sugar as a quart of chocolate milk) then that’s great! In fact I recommend Coca-Cola, plus a protein source, post-training!”

No, you wouldn’t. (I don’t think.)

But for some reason, throw the word “milk” in there and you assume 100 g sugar is nothing to object to.

That does not make sense.

What’s with this fetish for adding all this sugar to milk? I understand kids not knowing any better wanting it, but why are you adults endorsing it versus non-added-sugar milk?

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My guess is the reason that when people don’t visually see something, often they don’t grasp how much is involved.

I can only figure those advocating chocolate milk really don’t understand the amount of sugar involved.

Perhaps they imagine it as being sort of like adding a packet or two of sugar to a cup of coffee: trivial added sugar intake.

Nope.

Let’s grant that a 12 year old who’s had nothing to eat for quite some time and has trained or played hard and is being offered only chocolate milk, as was suggested, might well drink a quart, and work with that amount.

For sure when I was 12 I routinely drank a quart of milk at a shot (not chocolate) and I was under 100 lb. Much less just does not seem likely if there is no other food offered.

Two examples: Would you – aside from the protein content now being excessive – give a 12 year old a FOUR SCOOP serving of Surge?

He might be not much over or even half your weight, so that would be like you taking perhaps a 7 or 9 scoop serving of Surge.

Is that too much sugar at one shot?

Or suppose you had a Low Carb Metabolic Drive shake that you’d mixed up, and you are going to add sugar to it an amount you think reasonable.

What would that be? A few packets of sugar?

Maybe you would take a bag of sugar and use enough to measure out ounces (by volume) in a measuring cup. Fair bit of sugar if doing that, but let’s say you are.

It would take filling the measuring cup to the FIVE OUNCE level, by volume, to get the same sugar as the total sugars in a quart of chocolate milk. Whoah.

Of course, for you to get the same relative amount of sugar as a 12-year old would with that, you’d probably need more than a full cup of sugar to add to your shake.

Isn’t that too much sugar to drink at one shot?

So why advocate chocolate milk when there’s not a thing wrong with unsweetened milk?

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Maybe now, if stopping and thinking about the above, it’s not such a wonder that so many kids are coming down with Type II diabetes…

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[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

We know this is not only fine, but great for weight-training adults…

[/quote]

Just curious, are there long term studies on the effects of this type of diet manipulation in adults??

As you stated above diabetes is becoming (a particularly western world) epidemic, both for children & adults.

It doesn?t take Einstein to assume that the increase in consumption of processed foods (particularly increases in added salt & sugar present in these foods in order to cut costs) is directly & positively correlated to the increase in health issues.

Added to this, the general decrease in daily physical activity is a double whammy.

And that?s not even starting to go down the mal-nourishment path, of poor diet choices leading to a lack of vitamins, minerals and EFA?s, which may possibly be able to undo some of the evil of excess sugar?

So while the training population generally doesn?t regularly partake in such dietary gluttony, should(n?t) we be at least a little concerned regarding our PWO nutrition?

Is there a chance that through the regular consumption of high sugar PWO nutrition that our body?s equilibrium may shift to an undesirable new norm?

I?m not 12, but I know from my personal experience, that I can?t eat large amounts of sugar without some ill feelings. As such I try to limit my peri & post training shakes to no more than 20-25g of sugar each. That?s a single scoop (half serve)of Surge each and I am over 100kg?s as a reference.

?Of course pharmaceuticals are a somewhat different area but the general principle still applies.?

Please don?t ask me to quote any references, but from my schooling I remember reading quite a few studies showing increases of (negative) effects on infants and children subjected to illicit drugs, alcohol and tobacco, especially on brain function, when compared to adults.

Same principals and unarguable.

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[quote]jc2000 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:

We know this is not only fine, but great for weight-training adults…

Just curious, are there long term studies on the effects of this type of diet manipulation in adults??[/quote]

Actually so far as I know, no.

I believe you are correct in meaning, if your meaning was as I think I was, that I wrote the above quite poorly.

It should have said, “We know that this is effective and has never appeared to cause problems in weight training adults of normal health using the product or products with comparable macronutrient profiles as directed.”

Which does not mean that we know for sure that increased chance of developing some problem down the road must be zero, as my above statement suggests.

I personally really doubt it, as 45 g of glucose in a single “hit” for an adult male weight trainer is no huge amount, but I cannot say studies have proven zero lifetime adverse effect and wouldn’t want have wanted to have phrased things where there might be such an implication.

I do see differences between:

A) 45 g dose of glucose for an adult male weight trainer vs
B) 100 g dose of total sugars, half of which is sucrose, for a 12 year old who might well be not much over half the adult man’s weight, or could be under half: in any case likely roughly half if not fat, and

C) An adult making a decision on something we don’t have an absolute fact on long-term effect,
D) Making that decision for a child for no necessary reason.

And of course even moreso when there’s reason to expect the decision to be one that contributes to a problem, as there is reason to think with 100 g hits of sugar.

I think you are wise to evaluate and decide these things based on your own body and experiences.

And there are probably others for whom less glucose at one time than Surge provides (at recommended dose) is best for them. An excellent point.

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Btw, for reference comparison, a 2 scoop serving of Surge contains about the same total sugar as 17 ounces of orange juice – if that helps illustrate that the amount isn’t extreme for an average adult weight-training man.

Though as you point out individual exceptions will exist and that is an important point.

69

I totally see where you’re coming from and I guess I wasn’t trying to say that regular milk is bad. I was just saying that in this particular situation it probably isn’t going to hurt. This kid seems far and away from the normal 12 yr old.

That being said I’m not trying to advocate chocolate milk at all. Hell, I don’t even drink milk myself because the carbs don’t fit into my diet as of now. I just know as a kid I enjoyed chocolate milk every now and then and I’d hate to see MsM get freaked out about giving the kid chocolate milk our of fear that their child is going to become a diabetic.

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I don’t think you wrote poorly at all. I understand that everything you write over anything i write, will be scrutinised to the nth degree. Notwithstanding any legal, professional and/ or contractual issues that you may also be obliged by.

I would assume that by what you wrote you had used your personal experience of using surge as well as studies on the beneficial effects on body composition in mind.

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The next logical question to ask is when is someone (physically) old enough to start such dietary manipulations?

In Australia 18 is the legal drinking age, in the US its 21. In Europe children grow up having a glass of wine with dinner on occasion. I believe these figures have more to do with mental maturity (LOL) and the ability to make decisions for oneself rather than a physical preparedness.

Physically i would assume it would around the time you stop growing taller, plus a year or so to be safe. So for most about 18.

I do note that you eluded to an answer with your a, b, c, d points above, regarding the benefit to risk continuum and one being old enough to make their own decisions.

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Also with reference to fruit vs fruit juice (and i assume you are talking about 100% real, non-sweetened juices). It takes about 5 to 6 oranges to fill a small (approx 300ml) glass.

Like you said before, people are visual and unless you have made your own juice before you really have no idea how much you are actually consuming. It’s highly unlikely that anyone would eat 6 or more oranges in a single sitting. And that’s also assuming there is no added sugar.

Similarly eating packaged food, you have no idea what is really in them. There’s a lot of trust in assuming that the label is accurate. China’s milk scandal was a tragic example of this, which coincidently also showed how children were more susceptible than adults to toxins.

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True, it’s not going to “hurt” in the sense that he could also on a given occasion drink 32 ounces of regular Coca-Cola and not suffer apparent consequences from that occasion.

But as to whether such amounts of regular Coca-Cola (along with some protein source giving same protein as a quart of chocolate milk) ought to be recommended post-training for a is a different question.

(Yes, I know the sugar profiles are different between the two, one being half lactose / half sucrose-or-HFCS and the other being all HFSC:

but the intended meaning is not same type of sugars but rather “probably isn’t going to hurt” versus “should it be recommended” and for that likewise the Coca-Cola is, resectively, yes and no for those if limited use is being discussed and possible non-apparent cumulative contribution to a problem isn’t being counted.)

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[quote]rugbyfan wrote:
I totally see where you’re coming from and I guess I wasn’t trying to say that regular milk is bad. I was just saying that in this particular situation it probably isn’t going to hurt. This kid seems far and away from the normal 12 yr old.

That being said I’m not trying to advocate chocolate milk at all. Hell, I don’t even drink milk myself because the carbs don’t fit into my diet as of now. I just know as a kid I enjoyed chocolate milk every now and then and I’d hate to see MsM get freaked out about giving the kid chocolate milk our of fear that their child is going to become a diabetic.[/quote]

LOL. Let’s get serious for a moment, she isn’t feeding him MacDonalds 3x a day.

Let him drink some milk, it’s a good source of vitamins & minerals, let him eat some fruit for the same reasons.

That’s totally unprofessional advice of course, but then again the professionals also say that you should eat multiple servings (i remember it being 5 to 6??) of breads & cereals.

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The question I keep asking is, Why are people advocating and repeatedly defending chocolate milk rather than unsweetened milk?

Why recommend the extra 50 grams of sugar per quart?

I’ve yet to see the reason explaining this.

It can’t be the flavor, as I’ve already provided a no-extra-sugar means of getting even better while similar flavor, and that – other than by MsM – was sneered at.

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Let Alan speak

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[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The question I keep asking is, Why are people advocating and repeatedly defending chocolate milk rather than unsweetened milk?

Why recommend the extra 50 grams of sugar per quart?

I’ve yet to see the reason explaining this.

It can’t be the flavor, as I’ve already provided a no-extra-sugar means of getting even better while similar flavor, and that – other than by MsM – was sneered at.[/quote]

Nothing to sneer at, Bill. I was quite easily able to find the Hershey’s Cocoa and if I do say so, it was good:)

Post-game today, Metabolic Drive shake followed shortly after by white milk and 7 pieces of pizza. They won 5-1 (had to brag for a second lol)

You’ve been a wonderful help. You’re a good man; thank you.

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Very glad to be of help, and glad it worked out for you!

And congratulations to your son on the win!

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[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The question I keep asking is, Why are people advocating and repeatedly defending chocolate milk rather than unsweetened milk?

Why recommend the extra 50 grams of sugar per quart?

I’ve yet to see the reason explaining this.

It can’t be the flavor, as I’ve already provided a no-extra-sugar means of getting even better while similar flavor, and that – other than by MsM – was sneered at.[/quote]

I think the reason some people advocate chocolate milk is from hearing about a study where post workout chocolate milk helped aid recovery in athletes more so than other workout drinks. I had read this in several media outlets, but after further research, I have come to realize that it likely a single study that was probably manipulated for media’s sake. Still, there are a lot of “fitness” magazines that recommend chocolate milk because of that study and that could be why there is support for the “chocolate” part of milk post workout.

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Makes sense: often ideas that aren’t the best get propagated that way.

It’s also often the case that studies fail to make best possible comparisons. E.g., if they compared one pint of non-sweetened milk (of some percent fat) to one pint of chocolate milk – not the same caloric content, and not for many individuals getting to a point of ridiculous total sugar – they could have got a “better result” from the chocolate milk.

Of course, a pint and a half (similar caloric content) or quart of unsweetened milk (similar total carb content) would have been better for the subjects than the pint of chocolate milk, though not necessarily from the standpoint of the specific measurement studied.

(Another point of problem, that many assume that the specific measurement taken in a study gives the whole picture.)

79

Have you guys forgot we are talking about a 12 year old kid?.. I mean is Surge really needed?..

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Is part of T-Nation’s mission to post articles that challenge the prevailing dogma in bodybuilding?

In that context, I find arguments in the format “everyone knows that…” somewhat disappointing.