12 Year Old Athlete and Surge?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Sounds good, MsM.

Just so you are not confused by what is being cut-and-pasted at you above, there is a world of difference between taking 1 gram per kg (let’s say your son may weigh 50 kg, I don’t know, so that would be 50 grams if so) in three separate doses, therefore somewhere around 16 grams of sugar per dose, is worlds different than getting about 100 grams of sugar all in one shot, as an amount of chocolate milk (1 quart) giving the same protein as the MD provides in one shot.[/quote]

In the first place, you’re massaging the numbers to suit your sensationalistic argument. Nowhere in here have I recommended 100g carbs via chocolate milk. MsM was looking for a recovery drink to tide her son over from the end of practice to the next time he gets a solid meal.

Your 1-quart figure came from matching protein amounts between chocolate milk and low-carb Metabolic Drive in order to generate a high carb number. And, you repeatedly claim that this is what I’m recommending - you are quite a piece of work, bro.

Secondly, reviewing what you claimed (that glucose is superior to sucrose for postworkout nutrition), I provided proof that it isn’t. There are more aspects that we can discuss in this vein as well, but you’re obviously afraid to engage in direct discussion and presentation of research. You’re stuck in the mentality that sucrose is ineffective compared to an equal amount of glucose, and I provided proof that you’re incorrect.

I also provided proof that equal amounts of sucrose and glucose overfeeding showed no difference in DNL (fat conversion, for those reading). All you’ve demonstrated in this discussion is a whole lot of posturing and avoidance of direct questions.

[quote]Alan Aragon wrote:

Secondly, reviewing what you claimed (that glucose is superior to sucrose for postworkout nutrition), I provided proof that it isn’t.

[/quote]
Glucose is indeed superior to sucrose for postwork nutrition.

[quote]Alan Aragon wrote:
You’re stuck in the mentality that glucose is ineffective compared to an equal amount of sucrose, and I provided proof that you’re incorrect. [/quote]

Huh?

[quote]redgladiator wrote:
Alan Aragon wrote:

Secondly, reviewing what you claimed (that glucose is superior to sucrose for postworkout nutrition), I provided proof that it isn’t.

Glucose is indeed superior to sucrose for postwort nutrition. [/quote]

“postwort” nutrition is fascinating.

[quote]Alan Aragon wrote:
You’re stuck in the mentality that glucose is ineffective compared to an equal amount of sucrose, and I provided proof that you’re incorrect.

Huh?[/quote]

I corrected that switchup before you posted.

[quote]Alan Aragon wrote:
redgladiator wrote:
Alan Aragon wrote:

Secondly, reviewing what you claimed (that glucose is superior to sucrose for postworkout nutrition), I provided proof that it isn’t.

Glucose is indeed superior to sucrose for postwort nutrition.

“postwort” nutrition is fascinating.

Alan Aragon wrote:
You’re stuck in the mentality that glucose is ineffective compared to an equal amount of sucrose, and I provided proof that you’re incorrect.

Huh?

I corrected that switchup before you posted.

[/quote]

I’m glad you found my typo amusing, I have edited it for you.
I think you will find you corrected AFTER I posted.

[quote]redgladiator wrote:

I think you will find you corrected AFTER I posted.
[/quote]

WTF?

If you want to get petty about switchups that aren’t corrected, your profile says “Admin Manager/Amatuer Boxer”. Switch the u & the e, and thank me later.

I’ve obviously been hammering the point throughout this discussion that sucrose is not an ineffective postworkout carb compared to glucose, and I backed up that claim. PS - you haven’t backed up yours.

[quote]MsM wrote:
No confusion, just a temporary overload. The Metabolic Drive went over well and even though I am very much a proponent of whole foods, in this circumstance, it seems very fitting and appropriate. The downside is that now I have to share:)

Matt liked it so much that we’ve decided to make Strawberry Metabolic Drive frozen yogurt tomorrow night.[/quote]

Sounds good!

By the way, if your son just likes the taste of chocolate milk – which makes perfect sense – what one can do that actually is a good thing to do is to add unsweetened cocoa powder to milk.

For example, Hershey’s Natural Unsweetened Cocoa.

Tastes great, adds zero sugar, and actually adds “healthiness” to the milk from the cocoa polyphenols, rather than adding junkiness as the supermarket product does with the huge sugar content.

(For 1% chocolate milk, 63% of the calories are from sugar: if anything counts as junking up a product for the mass market and turning what was a healthy food into a poor choice, that’s it right there. Adding unsweetened cocoa is a far superior way to go and likely will be thought to taste better, too.)

Edit for MsM: I am referring to any ongoing milk consumption you were planning, if your son would rather that his milk at any time have a chocolate-y taste, as a better way of achieving that.

[quote]Alan Aragon wrote:
redgladiator wrote:

I think you will find you corrected AFTER I posted.

WTF?

If you want to get petty about switchups that aren’t corrected, your profile says “Admin Manager/Amatuer Boxer”. Switch the u & the e, and thank me later.

I’ve obviously been hammering the point throughout this discussion that sucrose is not an ineffective postworkout carb compared to glucose, and I backed up that claim. PS - you haven’t backed up yours.

[/quote]

I plain refuse to back my claim up. Sue me.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
By the way, if your son just likes the taste of chocolate milk – which makes perfect sense – what one can do that actually is a good thing to do is to add unsweetened cocoa powder to milk.

For example, Hershey’s Natural Unsweetened Cocoa.

Tastes great, adds zero sugar, and actually adds “healthiness” to the milk from the cocoa polyphenols, rather than adding junkiness as the supermarket product does with the huge sugar content.

(For 1% chocolate milk, 63% of the calories are from sugar: if anything counts as junking up a product for the mass market and turning what was a healthy food into a poor choice, that’s it right there. Adding unsweetened cocoa is a far superior way to go and likely will be thought to taste better, too.)
[/quote]

MsM likes Metabolic Drive in part for the taste and convenience, which is fine. Your suggestion to add unsweetened cocoa powder to milk as an alternative reduces both the convenience AND taste factor. I agree that unsweetened cocoa is a healthy addition, but based on her son’s training demands, your carbophobia regarding regular chocolate milk postworkout is unwarranted.

[quote]redgladiator wrote:

I plain refuse to back my claim up. Sue me.
[/quote]

^^^That much sums up the counter-arguments in this thread.

[quote]Alan Aragon wrote:

If you want to get petty about switchups that aren’t corrected, your profile says “Admin Manager/Amatuer Boxer”. Switch the u & the e, and thank me later.

[/quote]

Thank you, I will keep the typo in your honour.

[quote]redgladiator wrote:
Alan Aragon wrote:

If you want to get petty about switchups that aren’t corrected, your profile says “Admin Manager/Amatuer Boxer”. Switch the u & the e, and thank me later.

Thank you, I will keep the typo in your honour.[/quote]

I hear the planet Moronicus is demanding the immediate return of all its citizens.

The residents there are born for arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing, being famous for saying anything of any kind to accomplish that, and their skills are desperately needed again back on their homeworld, as the noise level there has dropped to sub-jet-engine levels in their absence.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

I hear the planet Moronicus is demanding the immediate return of all its citizens. The residents there are born for arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing, being famous for saying anything of any kind to accomplish that, and their skills are desperately needed again back on their homeworld, as the noise level there has dropped to sub-jet-engine levels in their absence.[/quote]

Good to see you graduate from evidence-free argumentation to juvenile BS.

Bill, you should post some research papers to put this Alan guy in his place. I’m sure you have evidence that sucrose is inferior to glucose for PWO nutrition. Pretty much everyone knows that. Right now it might look to some people like Alan has the edge because he backed up what he said with science, but don’t give him that privilege.

I’m sure there are good studies that contradict him, right? Post them! The “planet Moronicus” might come off to some people like you’re avoiding the question, but I know you know your stuff. You should back up your position with the counter evidence.

Sucralose is an accepted alternative substitute to sugar and it is accepted by the American Dental Association.

https://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/printarticle.asp?articleid=1397
A governing health body would NOT advocate its use if it was detrimental.

If you want more research, a review article was published

Artificial sweeteners–do they bear a carcinogenic risk?
Ann Oncol. 2004 Oct;15(10):1460-5.

concludes that according to the current literature, the possible risk of artificial sweeteners to induce cancer seems to be negligible.

Meta-analyses such as those found in review articles are the highest rated type of research study in the Scientific community.

Now back to the original post, I don’t think a 12 year old needs SURGE Recovery. I don’t even think they should be using supplements so early unless they really don’t get enough nutrients in their diet. Even then I can’t see why a regular whey protein powder with some gatorade and even go as far as using BCAA and ZMA wouldn’t work just as well.

[quote]Conciliator wrote:
Bill, you should post some research papers to put this Alan guy in his place. I’m sure you have evidence that sucrose is inferior to glucose for PWO nutrition. Pretty much everyone knows that. Right now it might look to some people like Alan has the edge because he backed up what he said with science, but don’t give him that privilege.

I’m sure there are good studies that contradict him, right? Post them! The “planet Moronicus” might come off to some people like you’re avoiding the question, but I know you know your stuff. You should back up your position with the counter evidence.[/quote]

Bill’s above presenting evidence. Nevermind, I’ll help him. There is one study with a 2-hr postworkout observation period that saw glucose in the lead over sucrose, but I presented 2 studies showing no significant difference when the observation period is carried to the 4 hr or 6 hr mark. And of course, these trials were carried out under the typical overnight-fasted conditions to complete glycogen depletion minus any pretraining carbs, which is not the case in reality. This makes the case for glucose over sucrose even weaker.

[quote]Conciliator wrote:
Bill, you should post some research papers to put this Alan guy in his place. I’m sure you have evidence that sucrose is inferior to glucose for PWO nutrition. Pretty much everyone knows that. Right now it might look to some people like Alan has the edge because he backed up what he said with science, but don’t give him that privilege.

I’m sure there are good studies that contradict him, right? Post them! The “planet Moronicus” might come off to some people like you’re avoiding the question, but I know you know your stuff. You should back up your position with the counter evidence.[/quote]

I have dealt with the subject before at length.

I am stating fact when I say that it is well known in nutritional science that high sucrose and/or fructose intake has adverse effects not seen from glucose.

If this “full-time sports nutritionist” does not know that, my guess it’s already pretty obvious to the vast majority of those reading this what is going on.

If anyone wonders for themselves, not already being aware of this, it’s not hard to self-research.

However already almost everyone knows that vast quantities of sucrose are a bad idea, almost everyone knows that this fellow’s typo flames are lame, almost everyone knows that his posted concern about calcium deficiency from having Metabolic Drive instead of milk post-workout is completely foolish, almost everyone can see that it is just as I say, that the fellow is simply being one of those that argues anything because he likes to argue, sort of like a dog that loves feeling its brain rattle from barking endlessly.

Not everyone deserves a quality reply. In cases like this I don’t see a value in replying ANYTHING to the person engaged in such nonsense – nothing I say can make a difference to them. The only reason to say anything is with regard to everyone else reading. But everyone else reading already knows that extreme amounts of sucrose at a time are a bad idea.

Everyone else knows that adding 50 g or whatever of sugar to a quart of milk is junking it up.

Everyone else knows that a 12 year old hungry after a game or training, if offered only milk which was the only named food in the post I was responding to, may well be going to want to drink something on the order of a quart if available.

Everyone else can see that the objections “Well I wasn’t talking about anything like that much chocolate milk” (paraphrase) were foolish. The kid is not going to be drinking a half-pint or what-have-you in that situation of milk being the only thing offered while hungry and probably thirsty too.

Everyone else can see that the argumentative objections to suggesting that, as milk will continue to be served at other times, that if the boy likes chocolate milk then adding unsweetened cocoa powder is a better way of getting the flavcr, that this is supposedly too much trouble, while at the same time claiming that making a shake of Metabolic Drive is not too much trouble, is just being a foolish “I will say anything if it’s the opposite he’s saying” person.

Pretty much everyone can likely see, particularly once it’s pointed out as I did, that citing a study going up to per dose amount of only 1/3 gram of sugar per kg of bodyweight as supposedly relevant evidence of what happens at doses such as the on-the-order-of 2 grams per kg of bodyweight that would be the case with the chocolate milk, is bogus and if the fellow is as educated as he says, he’d have to have known it was bogus as he did it but did not care: just wanted to make the noise.

I truly do think pretty much everyone reading this, if they have read all of this fellow’s posts, can see EXACTLY what is going on and therefore there is no need whatsoever to go over again, in detail, material that I already have and the fundamentals of which – that vast amounts of sucrose are not best – probably not a single reader here, other than this person, doubts in the first place.

It’s like asking me to provide proof the Earth isn’t flat, in response to a person who is not even sincere but is just being a typo-flaming, falsehood-spouting (in having it that tons of sucrose is desirable), bad advice-giving, “whatever you say I’m going to loudly argue the opposite” jackass. No need.

As for the planet Moronicus comment, the quoted behavior where he went into what I think was his second typo-flame was indeed the behavior of a moron and a person behaving in exactly the manner I stated. It was a quick and IMO accurate summary.

Or take how he objected to flavoring milk with cocoa. Before, MD was not the way to go compared to milk, but once I suggested flavoring milk with cocoa on those occasions when milk is used, now of course that had to be loudly disagreed with: now MD is a much better way to go since he thought that was showing me to be wrong (it wasn’t, however.) My guess is everyone sees that for what it is.

If the fellow were here for honest discussion, on learning the details on chocolate milk I provided, he would have replied with something like, “I didn’t know chocolate milk had that much sugar added to it - with so much added sugar, no, there are better ways to go.” But that would not satisfy his need to bray, so instead he calls it “carbophobic” to object to all that sugar.

What do you call a moron, but a moron? When the jackassery just keeps on going, what do you call it but being a jackass? Sometimes ya just gotta say it the way it is.

give the little fella the nutriton he deserves: SURGE Recovery!

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
MsM wrote:
No confusion, just a temporary overload. The Metabolic Drive went over well and even though I am very much a proponent of whole foods, in this circumstance, it seems very fitting and appropriate. The downside is that now I have to share:)

Matt liked it so much that we’ve decided to make Strawberry Metabolic Drive frozen yogurt tomorrow night.

Sounds good!

By the way, if your son just likes the taste of chocolate milk – which makes perfect sense – what one can do that actually is a good thing to do is to add unsweetened cocoa powder to milk.

For example, Hershey’s Natural Unsweetened Cocoa.

Tastes great, adds zero sugar, and actually adds “healthiness” to the milk from the cocoa polyphenols, rather than adding junkiness as the supermarket product does with the huge sugar content.

(For 1% chocolate milk, 63% of the calories are from sugar: if anything counts as junking up a product for the mass market and turning what was a healthy food into a poor choice, that’s it right there. Adding unsweetened cocoa is a far superior way to go and likely will be thought to taste better, too.)

Edit for MsM: I am referring to any ongoing milk consumption you were planning, if your son would rather that his milk at any time have a chocolate-y taste, as a better way of achieving that.

[/quote]

Thank you, Bill, for that suggestion; anything that is good for you and tastes like chocolate is welcome in my house. Tomorrow, I will be scouting for that.

If you wanna give him Surge, then give him Surge; if he reacts badly then stop it…

Also what’s wrong with fruit?? Natural sugars shouldn?t be an issue, and it?s pretty hard to eat too much fruit in a single sitting. I grew up eating oranges at 1/2 time. Very advanced.

Personally I couldn’t play or train on an empty stomach, I would feel physically sick, while my brothers were both the opposite and would feel ill if they ate before they played, like BR said before it?s a very individual thing… I would also come off the field hungry, and have to eat something straight after as well. Lil? piglet, LOL.

If he was my son, I would feed him primarily non-processed, whole foods, 3 to 4 times a day. Give him snacks of fruit, nuts, yoghurt and the like in between if he’s still hungry. After a game, once a week treat him to whatever he wants, as long as he ate his greens every day.

He is young, his body will adapt pretty quickly to whatever level of activity it’s subjected to, just make sure he eats and gets enough sleep every day.

J.

I suppose I should be a little clearer, if perhaps I wasn’t quite clear in my initial post.

I agree with you completely of a diet of primarily non-processed, whole foods for kids. They should be eating what is basically just good food such as they are naturally adapted for, and preferably we should do the best we can do, within reason, within that realm.

Nowhere did I object to a kid having some fruit. An apple for a snack or whatever is a great idea.

My concern as to why I suggested going with whole foods – or Metabolic Drive with some whole foods is fine as Metabolic Drive is really just milk protein isolate – as opposed to Surge is that Surge is really a dietary manipulation rather than simply food. It is designed to do something unusual different than you get from eating any food that I can think of. Literally, to provide a really rapid surge, which is why it has its name.

We know this is not only fine, but great for weight-training adults.

However in general most things that fall into the category of dietary manipulations – by which I mean accomplishing something that isn’t going to be accomplished that way with natural foods – we really know just about nothing on with regard to whether there may be an effect, perhaps not seen for a long time down the road, with kids that is not the case with adults. We just don’t know.

Would a Surge be worse for a kid than drinking two regular Cokes, for example?

Nope.

But I wouldn’t recommend the Coca-Colas, either. No reason for a kid to take in the big processed sugar hit, IMO.

Some Metabolic Drive and chicken and rice, as one example alternative? I’d rather see that.

Perhaps that is clearer?