100% Raw Poll

Uber_N3wb · December 22, 2007, 5:54am

[quote]shizen wrote:
My opinion is that PURE RAW is dangerous. You have a MUCH higher risk of injury, which is why most powerlifters only lift max effort weight in gear-usually full gear- [/quote]

Gear dosent make the exercise safer, it just changes the exercise to a different variation that puts less stress on the muscles more likely to get injured. However that is only speaking for the bench.

Squat suits lose any “saftey” benefits they might have when you slap the extra 100lbs on the bar and descend down into a unnatural squating position supported by some canvas

Synthetickiller · December 22, 2007, 7:39am

For the record, i get 100 lbs out of black metal knee wraps and single ply power pants + a belt.

Give me a metal suit and 150 to 200 lbs is possible.

lbh110 · December 22, 2007, 8:38am

I dont like the idea of all of these different feds for lifting, however since gear exists and people want to use it why not have a single large federation, which hosts competitions where anyone may compete in a sub category of various levels of gear

like a track meet, you show up, register for raw and lift raw. meanwhile you’re buddy just got a sweet squat suit and wants to try it with his knee wraps and registers for the geared event.

No matter what you want to lift in, you could find some ‘event’ at a meet that you could compete, all with other folks who like to go heavy, make friends and see some serious competition, all the while reducing entrance fees since the fed would need less overhead costs by consolidating

my 2c

Tim_Henriques · December 22, 2007, 11:45am

[quote]PublickStews wrote:
How come no one has ever questioned the wearing of shoes? Real men lift in bare feet unlike those weak guys who compete in SHOES! Hell, the only way to see if a guy is strong is to find out what he can do totally naked![/quote]

If certain shoes increased track performance by 20% or more than you can bet that they would be banned at track meets. Just like certain golf balls are banned in golf because you can hit them too far and they ruin the integrity of the game, especially if you try to compare that performance to one of the past when that type of equipment wasn’t available.

Tim_Henriques · December 22, 2007, 11:49am

[quote]shizen wrote:
My opinion is that PURE RAW is dangerous. You have a MUCH higher risk of injury, which is why most powerlifters only lift max effort weight in gear-usually full gear- [/quote]

I would generally agree with EQUAL weight a geared lift vs a non-geared lift is safer, however as another poster said because of the gear you then add 50-300 lbs on to what you can already do and now that safety benefit has gone out the window. I have been to several raw meets and thus far (knock on wood) I haven’t seen any injuries occur. Not saying it can’t happen just that it is not as common as people might think.

sumabeast · December 22, 2007, 11:00pm

the argument that all Raw lifting is dangerous and prone to injury is simply due to the fact that so many guys are so addicted to wearing a belt and elbow or knee wraps. the result is that the joints and smaller supportive muscles in those areas never have an opportunity to develop and get strong, so you set yourself up for possible injury even while wearing the beltor wraps.

let’s face it most of us in strength sports started out with bbing style training that pushes wearing of a belt from day one, you get acustomed to the belt and wraps and years later when you’re lifting some decent #s your joints and other stabilizer muscles are still fairly weak due to all those years spent wearing a belt.

the idea is to see who is the strongest, best gifted lifter and to remove any doubt of aid by way of a belt or wraps. one guy may win a meet by a lifting a mere 20lbs more than the other, so who’s to say that he didn’t get that extra 20lbs from his belt? or wraps? not everyone can afford or may have access or knowledge of the high quality gear.

So I say pit your natural human ability against the other lifter’s natural human ability. if you can’t lift heavy without a belt then you know what to work on.

I agree with the comment, singlets should be required, as lose fiting baggy shorts or t-shirts could get in the way of judging.

Hanley · December 23, 2007, 1:37am

[quote]sumabeast wrote:

the idea is to see who is the strongest, best gifted lifter and to remove any doubt of aid by way of a belt or wraps. one guy may win a meet by a lifting a mere 20lbs more than the other, so who’s to say that he didn’t get that extra 20lbs from his belt? or wraps? not everyone can afford or may have access or knowledge of the high quality gear.

So I say pit your natural human ability against the other lifter’s natural human ability. if you can’t lift heavy without a belt then you know what to work on.
[/quote]

Well do you want them to lift with the exact same technique tho? Since that’s a major part of the sport. If someone’s technique isn’t as good then it’s a major unfair advantage on the other guy. It’s like alexeyev said, I didn’t win because I was stronger, I won because I has better technique.

Or maybe they should all have the same limb proportions since long arms will gain you more in the dead than you’ll lose in the bench. That’s pretty unfair since the other guy doesn’t have access to long arms too right?

I do realise how absurd my arguments are, but I’m just trying to make the point that it’s inherntly unfair. Everyone is going to have some form of advantage. Hell lets say the guy with super short legs and super long arms has the MOST of an advantage. He should really win everything since big squats and pulls are what win meets. That’s not exactly fair either is it…?

Maybe there should be classes based on body type and relative limb length? Ya know, so it’s a level and fair playing field.

Raw_Power · December 23, 2007, 2:09am

[quote]apwsearch wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the new USAPL division pans out. [/quote]

apwsearch,

I called my buddy up in Idaho who is the USAPL state chair about the proposed raw division and he told me that the governing body voted it down at the last meeting. Is this what you heard? Just curious…there seems to be some confusion.

Raw_Power · December 23, 2007, 2:38am

I train and compete raw (no belt, wraps, suit, bench shirt, etc.,) and I do that because that is what I like to do. I started out wearing gear and just didn’t like training nor competing in it. I’ve done some AAU meets in the raw division but they allow belts. That’s just the way it is. I understand that so if I choose not to wear one then that is a disadvantage for me and I know that going in. 100% RAW doesn’t even have meets out here where I live (Nevada) so what they do on the East coast is their thing. However, I do think that if they are advertising “100%” RAW then one would get the impression that would mean absolutely no supportive gear whatsoever.

Face it, a belt is a form of supportive gear that allows one to lift more weight than they would otherwise be able to. When I go to meets I don’t tell people how to lift or what they should do to be “pure”. The geared lifters like to tell me what I should be doing instead of vice versa. I have a lot of lifters ask me why I won’t wear gear and then they tell me what I could be doing if I did wear it. That’s all good and fine. I’ve used gear and competed in it and had success. After a while the trophies, medals and plaques just take up space and collect dust. Most people could care less and don’t understand it anyway. I like challenges so I don’t wear any gear. I never have liked doing what everyone else does.

Lifters can do what they want within the rules of that federation they are lifting in. If a lifter is trying to place in the top 3 whether it’s geared or raw and decides to not wear what is being allowed or being worn by the others, then there should be no whining or sniveling when they don’t place. I guess it all depends on what the lifter’s goals are.

For me, it’s all about PR’s and having fun. I wasn’t having fun fighting the gear and the headaches that go with it so I ditched it and made it easy for myself. I’m not trying to go to the WPO or the IPF Worlds.

One can do max lifts without a belt if one trains properly leading up to those max lifts. It’s all a matter of what you condition your body to do. Look at the Olympic lifters. Most of them aren’t wearing belts.

Just have fun, train and compete the way you want. Powerlifting is all about the gear these days and raw lifters are just going to have to accept it for what is and either participate with gear, without gear or somewhere in the middle.

JamFly · December 23, 2007, 3:47am

Hanley wrote:
“I do realise how absurd my arguments are”

I agree with you on this, the points you made are absurd so why make them?

Hanley · December 23, 2007, 11:26am

[quote]JamFly wrote:
Hanley wrote:
“I do realise how absurd my arguments are”

I agree with you on this, the points you made are absurd so why make them?
[/quote]

Because the raw vs gear argument is absurd and tired.

It seems like as soon as one thread’s finished, another one pops up.

Raw is “true” strength? Is it…? Maybe it’s working in your comfort zone.

Equipped lifting is a hell of a lot more demanding on your body. I’m so much more fucked the day after taking equipped maxes than I am after raw ones.

I wonder how many of the raw zealots that seem to piss and moan in threads like these have actually spent some time competiting both raw and in gear for competitions (and I’m not saying anyone from this thread, just in general). Because I bet if they’d done both they’d have a hell of a lot more respect for those guys with their “fake” equipped strength.

Raw_Power · December 23, 2007, 2:29pm

[quote]Hanley wrote:

Equipped lifting is a hell of a lot more demanding on your body. I’m so much more fucked the day after taking equipped maxes than I am after raw ones.

I wonder how many of the raw zealots that seem to piss and moan in threads like these have actually spent some time competiting both raw and in gear for competitions (and I’m not saying anyone from this thread, just in general). Because I bet if they’d done both they’d have a hell of a lot more respect for those guys with their “fake” equipped strength.
[/quote]

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. See my earlier post. I’ve done both and you’re right. Equipped lifting is more exhausting because you’re burning a lot of energy just trying to get your gear on and so are other lifters who are trying to help you get into it and vice versa when you return the favor and help them. You have to plan way ahead when wearing gear on when you’re “in the hole” or “on deck”. It’s more stressful because of it not to mention more expensive just keeping up with all the newest gear. I’m sure you get what I mean and I don’t need to list it all out.

For all those reasons and more that’s why I got away from it and that’s just my personal decision. The only thing I have to decide now at a meet is when I will start warming up. After that I just sit in the chair and wait for my name to be called up. The only gear I have is what I am wearing since I’m not using a belt. I just walk up to the platform and lift the weight. The only clothing I have to change between all three lifts is changing my shoes for the deadlift…much easier, less stressful, less expensive, more time to eat or drink some protein between events and more energy to put into the lifts themselves just to name a few of the many valued benefits and reasons.

Again, that’s just my own conclusions based on my goals because of my years doing this and my current age. If I had aspirations of glory in the IPF or WPO then I’d only be kidding myself with my current competing methods. Whatever yours are I wish you success!

Matt · December 23, 2007, 4:23pm

Raw Power, not to speak for Hanley, but I don’t think he is referring to you. If only more of the raw lifters shared your beliefs, powerlifting as a whole would be just a little bit better.

Most though only care to bash equipped lifters and I think those are the ones Hanley is referring to.

Stay strong

apwsearch · December 23, 2007, 4:53pm

[quote]Raw Power wrote:

apwsearch,

I called my buddy up in Idaho who is the USAPL state chair about the proposed raw division and he told me that the governing body voted it down at the last meeting. Is this what you heard? Just curious…there seems to be some confusion.[/quote]

What’s up, RP?

Go here: http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/36/org/ngbminutes2007.pdf

Items 9(f) and (i). Pages 10&11 respectively. I have already attended 3 meets with RAW divisions and we are currently establishing RAW records in our state and the neighboring state.

In regards to the broader discussion, I consider us pretty skilled at altering gear. I have been fortunate enough to spend considerable time with lifters who are much more acomplished lifters than myself.

Without exception, I have never concluded that we got edged out by someone because of gear.

We get beat because they are stronger, did a better job at attempt selection, pulled a clutch deadlift, were on fire that day and went 9 for 9 with 4 PR’s. Sometimes you lose a key third attempt on a horseshit call. Sometimes you make a minor technical error and miss a lift that should have been in the bag. Some days you just suck and there are no excuses. Other times you and your handler get the math wrong or miss an attempt change and lose a placing. I have had to come to the painful conclusion on more than one occasion that I just flat assed got out coached and it cost my lifter a placing. As recently as this years Master’s Nationals.

The point I am trying to make is there are way too many variables and drawing the conclusion you got beat b/c you didn’t have a good enough bench shirt is taking the easy way out and IMO a losers mentality.

It is interesting to me in that I rarely come across people who actually compete who spend much time judging the manner in how someone else choses to compete. Showing up on meet day is what counts.

Honestly, sometimes I think when I hear these comments about gear causing someone to stop competing, which is alwyas accompanied by how gear is ruining the sport, etc., I think they are largely made by people who did not have much fun competing and for some reason instead of just saying, “I really didn’t like to do meets,” they chose the more intellectually dishonest path of bashing gear and cryassing about how they lost this one meet because somebody had a better bench shirt.

You either like to compete or you don’t. Compete where and how you like to compete and be satisfied.

Matt_McG · December 23, 2007, 10:54pm

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Raw Power wrote:

apwsearch,

I called my buddy up in Idaho who is the USAPL state chair about the proposed raw division and he told me that the governing body voted it down at the last meeting. Is this what you heard? Just curious…there seems to be some confusion.

What’s up, RP?

Go here: http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/36/org/ngbminutes2007.pdf

Items 9(f) and (i). Pages 10&11 respectively. I have already attended 3 meets with RAW divisions and we are currently establishing RAW records in our state and the neighboring state.

[/quote]

Wow, that’s pretty cool. Looking forward to seeing what happens with this.

-Matt

Firebug9 · December 24, 2007, 2:27am

[quote]JamFly wrote:
I feel belts are fine even in raw powerlifting, in my opinion it’s all the other ‘aids’ that make a mockery of power lifting as a serious sport, give me strong man anyday![/quote]

Many of the Strong Man competitors also use Powerlifting gear – suits and wraps…

Monopoly19 · December 24, 2007, 4:02am

Lol, just what powerlifting needs, another fed!

Geared or non geared is cool with me, just don’t rip on my decision. Ask anyone, and I think they will tell you raw lifts are cooler, especially BIG raw lifts.

I personally like the use of gear. I am just getting into it, and it’s something to train in and play with. I do strongman stuff, and will try to find events that would benefit from the use of gear. I do this so I can lift more and lift it faster, hopefully increasing my chances for a win.

If it’s against the rules, that’s one thing. But if not, I don’t understand how as a competitor you wouldn’t? If all you are competing against is yourself why show up for the contest?

Anyways, hope everyone has a merry x-mas and a good day of training tomorrow. I’m looking forward to a good chest workout!

Monopoly

Raw_Power · December 24, 2007, 4:23am

[quote] Matt wrote:
Raw Power, not to speak for Hanley, but I don’t think he is referring to you. If only more of the raw lifters shared your beliefs, powerlifting as a whole would be just a little bit better.

Most though only care to bash equipped lifters and I think those are the ones Hanley is referring to.

Stay strong[/quote]

You’re right…I didn’t think Hanley was referring to me. I just wanted to expand on the point that he was making because it was a good one and valid.

Training and competing with gear is an art and tricky because there are many more variables that come into play. I know that equipped lifters are strong. Some things I have seen haven’t made any sense, but that’s just the way it is. For example, at one USAPL meet I went to a lifter I knew did a 500 bench with a single-ply shirt. He stated that he could barely squeek out 395x1 without a shirt. I was amazed at the carry-over with just a single ply and I thought he should be able to rep out with 395 if he could put up 500 with a single-ply shirt. Anyway, like I said, it’s an art form to learn how to use the gear and get the most out of it.

Raw lifters, like myself, need to understand that we are the minority in the sport of powerlifting. If raw lifters don’t like what is going on in the sport they can either get out of it or compete the way they want and shut up.

I chose to compete the way that I train and also decided to keep my mouth shut at meets on what my own personal views are unless directly asked. Even then I doubt I would say anything while at a meet. When I am asked why I am not wearing gear I simply respond, “I like competing without it”. That’s usually the end of it and then we all continue on with the meet cheering each other on.

Raw_Power · December 24, 2007, 4:27am