[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
pat wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Okay, I’ve been following some of these posts for some time and I’d like to jump in here.
I’m an anglo-catholic and admittedly I don’t know all that much about Islam. From my point of view, I encounter so many misunderstandings about the Catholic Church - and I know from personal experience that it is extremely difficult to educate someone about the Church outside the the faith - that I know I must, in all fairness, approach Islam with a huge amount of humility.
My girlfriend of many years grew up Muslim. I have watched her struggle with Islam; I have watched the dynamics of her Muslim family. This did not give me a very favorable impression of Islam, to be honest. And, recently, during Easter service here in Boston, she was baptized into the Anglo-catholic tradition. She is, I should add, terrified to tell her parents or family. In short, I do have impressions of Islam from a personal perspective - though they may be misinformed, incorrect, or not applicable to Islam more generally.
In trying to educate myself about Islam, I have found that materials fall into two general sources. 1. academic sources that - to me, at least - seem to reek of PC bullshit, not to put too fine a point on it. 2. sources from the likes of people like Spencer - his books and videos such as, for example, “Islam: What the West Needs to Know” (can be found on Youtube.)
Spencer’s presentation of Islam seems unassailable, though I’m perfectly aware that it may well be a one-sided presentation of the facts. I am eager, in fact, to find a reputable discussion of those facts from another perspective, especially one that pointedly refutes his analysis. Indeed, I would love to see someone debate Spencer.
If anyone would point me in the right direction here, I’d appreciate it. Cheers to all, ~katz
Please don’t hold your breath for a reasoned rebuttal of Spencer. I’ve looked for several myself. Every “rebuttal” consists of ad hominem against Spencer, tu-quoque about Christianity, and taqiyya and kitman about the Muslim understanding of the Qur’an. Go read some of the reviews of his books by Muslims on Amazon - you’ll get the general drift.
None of Muslims here correct my understanding of their doctrine. When I bring in examples from the Hadith or Qur’an or Qur’anic commentary (Tafsir), they call me a bigot, ridicule me, or say that I’m being unchristian (tu-quoque), like on the other thread.
The fact that your g/f is terrified of telling her family about her baptism means that she’s afraid of ending up an honor killing statistic. As Mohammed said, “If anyone leaves their religion (meaning Islam), kill them.”
You can read the Sunni understanding of apostasy right out of their own mouths:
Thus, according to the Qur’an, as a result of the advent of the Messenger of God in the Banu Ishmael, those who rejected faith from amongst the polytheists were subject to the death penalty, under the provisions of the Divine Law relating to the advent of God’s messengers. If any of these polytheists had accepted Islam at the hands of the Messenger and later decides to return to his previous beliefs, then he too should be grouped with those who had rejected the call of the messenger and, thus, also be subjected to the same punishment. If seen in this perspective, the narrative under consideration actually means that those people who were to be punished, according to the law of God, had they not accepted Islam, would face the same punishment, if at any time during their lives they leave the folds of Islam and return to their previous beliefs.
But what do I know? I’m just a bigot - just the infidel version of lixy on this forum.
In other words, she should be afraid and probably would be best to not tell them. That, or tell them over the phone from a far away location.
She’s from a prominent (Bangladeshi) family of poets, judges, & journalists. Some of them live here in the US. I don’t think she’s going to tell them anything. If we were to get married, I’m not sure what we’d do.
So, you’re meaning to tell me that no one has responded to Spencer et al with reasoned, point-for-point rebuttals??
That says something none-too-positive about Islam & Muslims. It’s pathetic, actually. Why don’t the reasonable, peace-loving Muslims stand up and proffer a substantive, reasoned alternative? Perhaps these are the same Muslims who continually fail to speak out against the “Islamo-fascists.” They’d rather sit quietly and say nothing - and implicitly condone it. I know what I’m talking about because I’ve sat among them in living rooms and at dining tables for years, while recent world events transpired. Even after 9/11, they either said nothing - or they remarked casually that americans deserved it. And these are seemingly normal, highly educated (MIT, Wharton, etc.) people otherwise enjoying the liberty, security, & high standard of living here in America.
Nor does any of this bode well for the future of Christian-Islamic relations. Frightening.
At issue is the truth claims of the religion itself. What is the orthodox understanding of various Islamic doctrines? Well, I quoted Muslims themselves in their understanding of how to treat apostates above. Now we’re talking about how Islam needs better PR. What about my post above? Are these Muslims wrong in what they were saying, and I’ve read the wrong site, or not? No one cares to address that question, and that’s the exact thing Muslims do with Spencer, or they’ll quote a minority, unorthodox opinion in Islam and pass it off as orthodox, as Ali Eteraz likes to do. They trail off into various non sequiturs in an effort to redirect the conversation and not answer the original question.
Sounds like your g/f hopefully isn’t in as much danger of an honor killing as those poor girls in Texas recently, but it’s definitely good to be aware of their doctrine regarding the matter. It always helps to keep your eyes peeled.
Here’s one review I pulled off of Amazon, which is somewhat representative:
May this author burn in Hell; he’s the real intolerant person!!! Muhammmad (peace and blessings of Almighty God be upon him) was Ar-Rahmat ul-'Aalameen), a mercy to mankind. Go and read the Qur’aan to find about it. See what Muslims have to say. The Holy Qur’an says that when an evil doer comes to you with new, confirm it. My advice is to confirm the real truth, as only the truth can set you free from lies like that which the author so falsely describes as “truth.”
Great rebuttal there.
Here’s another:
umm ignorance is bliss. most of the arguments used are nothing new and are but a collection of old european prejudices ranging from brits to the french. well we muslims have seen this through the last 1000 years and there is no reason for us to suppose that its going to stop anytime soon. something akin to the protocols of the elders of zion. or antisemitism. actually most people dont even realise that being anti arab and anti muslim makes u an anti-semite. yes arabs too are semites. and even though there are non arab muslims, its the same as having non semitic jews, jewish tribes from africa, india are hardly considered semitic. so i would argue that mr robert spencer first and foremost is an antisemite and must be branded so.
now the prophet muhammed on whom eternal peace be bestowed upon as we wish for moses and jesus, was a great man, ayesha his supposedly 9 year old wife is controversial since not even she knew her true age when she was married. imagine how important was it keeping up with ur birthdays 1400 years ago, its a subject of considerable debate and the woman ayesha was considerably aware of herself and what was happening to her. if anyone cares to read the memoirs of ayesha, then they will find that she remembered her marriage quite clearly and was able to give consent to her marriage with maturity and clarity. she was also quite anxious for marriage and not a little proud at the thought of marrying the prophet. not exactly the sort of things that go around in a 9 year olds head. there is no doubt that she was young but exaclty how old remains a matter of conjecture. consider that even the prophets birthday is not exactly known and is a matter of debate.t hings in those days were not as precise as living in the modern age. consider this that there is very little physical evidence proving the existence of jesus, but for religous texts including the quran. as for the jewish tribe that was destroyed, please read deeper. they betrayed the prophet and planned his destruction. muhammed asked a jewish tribal leader what was the punishment for their behaviour and what was meted out was standard protocol of the time. muhammad was but a man, above all a human with the same human desires that flow in us, a man with power, a man who had to go through the same ordeals, temptations, greed, avarice that we go through in our daily lives. he was a man who brought the word of god to us but trembled at the thought of judgement day. he feared for his soul till the last day. he was not even certain where his destiny lay in heaven or hell though being a great prophet. certainly he might have made mistakes, errors, for which he was truly apologetic. does that not make him human and a better person. that is the miracle that the tv evangelicals can never fathom that a man like muhammad, a good man but decidedly very human with the self doubts, anxiety that afflicts us all at some stage. how could he have had the power to become the most powerful man on earth in the desert and that the former illiterate goat herder could lay waste to three of the biggest empires of that time, the roman empire, the persian empire, and the byzantine empire. and in its place came islam like a tidal wave of energy, soon omnipresent and still the fastest growing religion on the planet. can islam become the religion of mankind. is that what the fear is, it certainly was when the pope declared the crusades of the 11th century and now the neo crusades launched. the players are different but the game is ancient. muhammed is dead and gone. we are grateful to him for bringing the message but his job is over. for all the islamophobes we say have the courage to deal with us directly and not take cheap pot shots at a dead man. how would you feel if some one slandered your dead fathers life . as a son i would say do u really want a piece of me now. so for all the robert spencers of the world remember truth will prevail and islam will only be stronger. for every crusade there is a Saladin waiting to happen. amen
“Islamophobe”… “fastest growing religion”… “Mohammed made mistakes but was still a good man.”
You get the idea.[/quote]
The first one was funny as hell. Kind of like that quote “Death to those who call islam violent.”
