10/16 Cool Tip?

Training Bodybuilding
121

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Professor X wrote:
…I know how I feel after training back alone. There is no way I would attempt to train back and several other large muscle groups all in the same day unless I wanted to DECREASE the intensity used on individual body parts…

I’ve never tried FBT, but this is my biggest theoretical hangup with it. I don’t think I could hit anything hard enough if I hit everything in the same day.

This is what I liked about it when playing rugby.

Splits were too intense and I could not recover fast enough. My practice and games were negatively impacted.

Three short FBT workouts a week were very good in season.

But see that’s what’s been coming up over and over. That was for performance not bodybuilding. Most guys agree that for general athletic performance FBT is better in many cases. The debate here though is over what builds a more complete physique. [/quote]

Seems to be the case. FBT training for “athletes” works very well.

Splits are probably best for “bodybuilders”.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Unless you are selling a competing system I don’t really see the point of arguing about it, unless you enjoy arguing. Which can be a fun distraction from work.

122

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The debate here though is over what builds a more complete physique. [/quote]
It shouldn’t be though - the thread was started to analyse a specific comment by CW stating that ‘full body beats splits any day of the week’. I think it’s possible to completely disagree with that comment without neccessarily thinking that full body workouts are crap.

If you take a weeks worth of sets of different exercises, and arrange them one way so as you’re doing splits, and then another way so your doing full body workouts, which way is better? I’ve never done that so I don’t feel I have enough information to comment one way or the other. My guess is that both would give you similar results, so long as you maintain progression of workout difficulty.

I don’t think full body training has had the same number of dedicated bodybuilding trainees over the years, so it’s a little unfair to ask for proof of it’s effectiveness on bodybuilding stages.

Anyway, to wrap up, I think Chad’s cool tip was over-boiled & incorrect basically, but that doesn’t mean that I’m convinced that splits beat the socks off of full body workouts either.

123

i guess i am confused as to why we argue about this. I have been training for over 20 years, maintain around 280 lbs relatively lean. I train splits until i get bored with it then i may train full body for awhile until i get bored with it. I like to go back and forth and keep my workouts enjoyable. If you have never trained full body at all you might be surprised at how refreshing it can be for a change, its not like you are going to shrink or anything.

And the opposite holds true as well. The fact is what dictates how big you are is primarily a function of how willing you are to work hard and eat hard. The best program for an individual is the one they will actually stick with, you can design anything you want but if you don’t do it it doesn’t mean shit.

124

Chad’s a smart guy and I tend to believe the tone he wrote his latest article in was meant to kinda needle at the split/isolation guys as a tongue in cheek dis. Being a smart guy I can’t believe he didn’t see this controversy coming which is fine.

If there is a potentially serious issue here at all it’s for the honest inexperienced guys who just haven’t done enough work to form an opinion of their own.

The somewhat unfortunate timing of CT's article being released about 15 minutes later, proclaiming the practical diametric opposite with just about as much dogmatism didn't help though both guys say that neither knew what the other was doing beforehand.

In any case I don't see why anybody has to be an asshole or full of shit. I think I posted somewhere else about dog trainers having a saying "the only thing any 2 dog trainers agree about is what a third dog trainer is wrong about". This is just human nature. Nobody's going to write about something that they don't think is the best way to do it. It may be prudent to be a bit more careful with how absolute things are stated though.
125

different strokes for different folks

126

When I played football we lifted total body 3-4x per week.

When I was done I switched to splits. Loved um’.

Now, I do both.

They both work for different reasons.

Everybody needs to take a deep breath…and relax.

Building your body is about what works for YOU.

127

I have some small input.

I’ve tried more of CT’s programs than CW’s.

Early this year I tried the Waterbury Method.

All I have to say now is that I’m a believer in Total-Body Training.

It’s just a matter of what works best for an individual. I’m at a level where compound movements would be optimal. Not splits. I’m still working on my “foundation”.

In the words of CT:

“Before creating a nice sculpture you first need a big rock”

It seems like Total-Body Training is optimal for Beginner/Intermediate and Split routines are optimal for advance trainees.

When I’m finished building my rock, I’m sure I’ll be on the specialization/split routine boat.

To Go Heavy Fool:

You obviously built that foundation already according to your posts and profile/stats. I think that’s why you’ll lean on the split routine side of things. Not trying to argue with you. Just giving some input which I hope will cool down this debate. It’s getting to the point where people/posters are getting angry with each other and bringing down intelligent men like Chad and Chris.

I think this argument is really going no where. Please end the madness!

-Serious

128

To say that full-body is better than splits without evidence is a pretty bold statement to say the least. I would agree with the guy who discussed frequency of muscle targeting. Most people’s idea of a split only hits the desired muscle group 1 time a week, which would explain the reason why TBT works better for them. When they go to the gym 3 times a week they’re breaking down the muscle moreso than their split program. Who here has built big arms by doing them once a week? silence Don’t forget pullups and rows are working your biceps, just as if you were to curl instead.

I like to put myself in a 3rd category. I’ve made my own program that incorporates full-body and split during the week. I know that my chest is lagging during pressing movements, so I post-exhaust them with cable-cross or pec-dec. I know my quads are dominate in squat so I pre-exhaust them with leg-ex. So far I’m making gains just like every other program due to eating lots and clean and getting the necessary rest. I will continue this until I plateau, and then I’ll switch exercises and set/rep schemes. People need to stop thinking that there is an end-all to lifting and just lift the damn weight. Do what works, and if that doesn’t work, do something else.

129

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
Look at this puny fuck! Someone should have told him not to do splits. Ronnie Coleman could have had bigger and better muscles had he only done fullbodys… 8 time Mr. Olympia, what a fool.[/quote]

There is a certain outstanding fallacy to this technique of posting pros pics and saying “This is what they did and this is how they got huge” and “this is their split routine, it works for them and they are great”.

These guys are on truck loads of drugs.

Find some pics of the pre-truckload of drug bodybuilders, and you would have a physique that is comparable to someone who may achieve similar results with a different technique.

OR- Give someone a truck load of drugs, and have them train TBT for a few years.

Other than that though, the whole arguement is just dandy. I like throwing matches at gasoline too. :wink:

130

Man I’m confused here.

First, I definitely fit into the pro-Waterbury camp. I like his programs and they’ve worked well for me.

Of course, I’m on ABBH right now, and that is a split program. One day is Chest/Back and the other is Thighs/Abs?Calves. Isn’t that a split?

I haven’t checked out ABBH II, but I’d assume that it’s similar in construction. It’s written by Waterbury though, so I guess he’s more open minded then he seems.

Secondly, I don’t doubt the effectiveness of splits- the westside for skinny bastards routine worked for me, as it has countless others, and lots of guys in the gym who have built decent size use more traditional bodybuilding splits. However, I don’t see pointing out a pro-bodybuilder like Priest as proof that splits work better than everything else…these fucking guys are on buckets of juice. I think that comparison is misleading…

131

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
Look at this puny fuck! Someone should have told him not to do splits. Ronnie Coleman could have had bigger and better muscles had he only done fullbodys… 8 time Mr. Olympia, what a fool.

There is a certain outstanding fallacy to this technique of posting pros pics and saying “This is what they did and this is how they got huge” and “this is their split routine, it works for them and they are great”.

These guys are on truck loads of drugs.

Find some pics of the pre-truckload of drug bodybuilders, and you would have a physique that is comparable to someone who may achieve similar results with a different technique.

OR- Give someone a truck load of drugs, and have them train TBT for a few years.
[/quote]

Listen, bodybuilders have been 10-20 years ahead of everyone else. High protein diets - bodybuilders. Frequent feeding - bodybuilders again. Low-carb diets - you guess it… bodybuilders came up with that! Name something you do that relates to training or eating, and chances are it had its origins in bodybuilding.

What follows from this? It’s simple.

It is HIGHLY LIKELY that some bodybuilders gave TBT a try. I don’t know for sure, but in light of everything else bodybuilders discovered and the rest of us copy, it’s a very safe bet. In fact, it’s PRESUMPTOUS to say we non-bodybuilders have found some missing link.

Given that NO top bodybuilder does TBT, it’s safe to assume that it does not build muscle better than a split routine.

After all, bodybuilders only care about results. If TBT gave better results, they would use it. Given that bodybuilders DO NOT use TBT, it’s reasonable to infer that TBT does not work well for bodybuilders.

Seriously, man, you need to study the history of bodybuilding. If you did, you’d realize that ALL OF US (including CW) are standing on the shoulders of giants. We should give those giants their propers and not assume they missed some secret.

Again, once CW produces examples of people who made great gains using TBT, then he will have an argument. (Oddly, the TBT advocates won’t post pics!)

Until then, all CW has is dogma.

132

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
When I played football we lifted total body 3-4x per week.

When I was done I switched to splits. Loved um’.

Now, I do both.

They both work for different reasons.

Everybody needs to take a deep breath…and relax.

Building your body is about what works for YOU.[/quote]

In fact, I’ve decided that my answer to nearly all training questions is - BOTH. Front squats or Back? Sumo Deadlifts or conventional? Chins or pulldowns? Splits or TBT? Bodypart splits or say, push/pull? I say both. Maybe not all at the same time, but with a logical approach, I’ve gotten results from ALL this stuff. And my training will never be stagnant, because I have tools at my disposal to change things, work around injuries, deal with schedule problems, etc.

133

I think people are overusing the “buckets of juice” statement here. If all it took was buckets of juice, than I would say more bodybuilders would be using full body routines, because the training doesn’t matter anyway. If full body worked better than splits, there should be even bigger bodybuilders than the ones we have now using full body routines.

134

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
Look at this puny fuck! Someone should have told him not to do splits. Ronnie Coleman could have had bigger and better muscles had he only done fullbodys… 8 time Mr. Olympia, what a fool.

There is a certain outstanding fallacy to this technique of posting pros pics and saying “This is what they did and this is how they got huge” and “this is their split routine, it works for them and they are great”.

These guys are on truck loads of drugs.

Find some pics of the pre-truckload of drug bodybuilders, and you would have a physique that is comparable to someone who may achieve similar results with a different technique.

OR- Give someone a truck load of drugs, and have them train TBT for a few years.

Listen, bodybuilders have been 10-20 years ahead of everyone else. High protein diets - bodybuilders. Frequent feeding - bodybuilders again. Low-carb diets - you guess it… bodybuilders came up with that! Name something you do that relates to training or eating, and chances are it had its origins in bodybuilding.

What follows from this? It’s simple.

It is HIGHLY LIKELY that some bodybuilders gave TBT a try. I don’t know for sure, but in light of everything else bodybuilders discovered and the rest of us copy, it’s a very safe bet. In fact, it’s PRESUMPTOUS to say we non-bodybuilders have found some missing link.

Given that NO top bodybuilder does TBT, it’s safe to assume that it does not build muscle better than a split routine.

After all, bodybuilders only care about results. If TBT gave better results, they would use it. Given that bodybuilders DO NOT use TBT, it’s reasonable to infer that TBT does not work well for bodybuilders.

Seriously, man, you need to study the history of bodybuilding. If you did, you’d realize that ALL OF US (including CW) are standing on the shoulders of giants. We should give those giants their propers and not assume they missed some secret.

Again, once CW produces examples of people who made great gains using TBT, then he will have an argument. (Oddly, the TBT advocates won’t post pics!)

Until then, all CW has is dogma. [/quote]

Thanks for the history lesson, which is completely beside the point.

What does what you responded with have to do with pointing out a fallacy of argumentational technique?

So, as I said previously, you will have to go a long way back to find a physique that could be obtained using a TBT style of training, not augmented by drug use.

Also, I don’t know where the Dogma aspersions are comming from. I know That Waterbury is big on TBT, but I have also noticed in his articles that he does recomend the use of other training methodologies, including repetition methods and isolation.

To take one method as representative of an entire body of work is just silly.

135

Like the guy said, this is a quote from a past article, which in no way attacks any other coach on here.

Everyone quotes prof x. Ask him. Read that thread where he delineates his training protocols over the years. Splits came in later, once he had granite to chisel away at. CT also used heavy compunds for years, right?

This argument will be circular. It’s like religion. One guy says Jehovah, another Yahweh, another Allah, but they’re all doing good things, and it’s the secret ingredients (intelligent and discipline) which make things happen.

Like rainjack said, it’s a sales pitch, in favour of what sustains Chad Waterbury to be able to live and work as a trainer. It’s what he prefers. Today there’s a cool tip saying ‘use unilateral exercises’. No need to argue

136

Lets take a look at today’s Cool Tip. Anybody besides me get the vibe that this is part of what many T-Nation authors constantly state that they want us to do, that is to think for ourselves instead of blindly following someone?

I have the feeling that this discussion is being encouraged. Take home message? Try everything, put in the right effort, and then use what works. Less arguing, more training.

137

[quote]Robert P. wrote:
I think people are overusing the “buckets of juice” statement here. If all it took was buckets of juice, than I would say more bodybuilders would be using full body routines, because the training doesn’t matter anyway. If full body worked better than splits, there should be even bigger bodybuilders than the ones we have now using full body routines.[/quote]

Who ever said that buckets of juice is all it takes?

What I’m saying is that there is nothing more dogmatic and bullshit like than to post a pic of a pro that is juiced to the fucking gills, and say that this is a result of splits, without including the fact that they use a lot more than splits to get that way.

That is the same sleazy technique that manufacturers use to promote bullshit supps, bullshit programs, and sell bullshit mags.

It is the same bullshit technique that lead kids to believe that if they follow X program, take Y supps, they get Z results. When they don’t get Z results, which they never will, they easily and falsyl conclude that there must be some “Secret”.

So, what I’m saying here is that if someone wants to call bullshit, they should not use a technique that is historicaly as BULLSHIT as it gets. That technique is, as was done, Posting a pic of a pro, followed by a routine, and accompanied by a statement to the effect of “This is what he did to get huge”

So, if you want to bust some dogma, don’t use a technique that is as bullshit dogmatic as it gets.

138


Let me interject here and shed some more light on the subject.

1- Fullbody training has been around since the beginning of time, this was the original way to workout. Chad Waterbury is not discovering some new genre of the supposed “end all be all best way to build bigger and better muscles” type training.

2- The reasons the TBT guys won’t post pictures is because they don’t have any examples where this will show superiority to splits.

3- Splits have replaced the old school of fullbody training(this has not changed) and have become the favorite of all top level bodybuilders because they are simply a far more effective way to achieve aesthetic and physique goals.

4- I am not against fullbodys, I am against using fullbodys anyday of the week to beat splits. This is horseshit. I have stated myself that for strength and performance athletes that fullbody’s are the hands down way to train. The opposite is true, split training is the hands down way to train for bodybuilders.

5- Making the statement that “fullbodys beat splits any day of the week” for building bigger and better muscles is just horseshit. Don’t try to incorporate an athletic style of training for bodybuilders and say its the best way to train because it just ain’t true.

Stick to what fullbodys are usefull for (performance and strength athletes) and just leave it at that. Sell it to that crowd. Don’t try to sell this bullshit to the bodybuilding community on a bodybuilding website with hundreds of thousands of kids logging on and wondering how to build their physiques.

You will not build “mind blowing biceps” doing fullbody routines and only using compound movements that incorporate no direct bicep work.

I will leave the picture of “mind blowing biceps” that were built on split routines using everything in his arsenal… including lots of concentration curls. Judge for yourself. You’d have to be a fuckin’ imbecile to think you could ever reach your full genetic potential for aesthetics and symmetry by not using split training with the added isolation movements.

139

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Nothing worth noting!

[/quote]Fin

My original routine I used to build these arms consisted of a split routine that included heavy barbell and dumbbell curls once a week. Then light isolation curls 3 times a week.

No steroids and no suppliments. This arm was built from split training and isolation movements. Would anybody like to post pics of their arms built on fullbodys without steroids and suppliments?

[EDIT]

My split routine looked like this:

Sun/Tue/Sat - (Light days)
3 sets of concentration curls for 30-50 total reps/set of dropset curling. (curl a weight 5-10 times, drop to a lighter one, curl it 10-15 times, drop again, and curl it another 15-20)

Thur - (Heavy day)

Barbell curls - 4-6 sets of 6-8 reps
Alternating Dumbbell Curls 3-5 sets of 6-8 reps
Incline or Bench curls - 2-4 sets of 6-8 reps

140


It don’t matter who I use. A roided up mofo like Ronnie. A guy with rediculous biceps on lousy roids in the 70’s (Arnold). Or myself, a no roid split trainer.

The fact remains. Fullbody TBT guys won’t post pics because they have nothing to compare. Christ! I had to use myself.

This has become pathetic… and I think the viewing audience has seen where the proof is.

OH yeah… how bout them isolations and splits one more time.

Here’s what it builds.