Has anyone here tried to judge a physique contest with that convoluted Points System. 20 points for symmetry, 20 points for muscularity, and 20 points for presentation.
A judge can turn his scores in, and when he sees the results, he could very likely wonder how he gave more points to a guy who wasn’t as good as another guy who looked better to the judge.
A many times better judging is place them 1 through how ever many contestants there are. No regrets.
Really interesting, in depth article covering this … thanks for posting it. Never saw this before .
Yeah, the psychology behind the whole thing and how it probably resulted in the outcome is fascinating . We all know by now in our own lives that the old saying that like life isn’t fair is true.
I know people like Arnold who as the article mentions , just has control over everyone else with out even trying to. I don’t think it’s something you can learn or develop , I think you’re just born with it. But those who have it certainly learn how to exploit it as Arnold certainly did.
I know many people who are better at their trade, produce better products, treat customers better and been harder workers than competitors and don’t / didn’t ‘finish first’. And I’m not just talking about bodybuilding , I’m talking about life in general.
There’s a lot to that saying that ended the article of " … it’s not what you are but what people think you are." It’s a sad fact of life but it is true.
What’s really sad is how not being able to deal with that fact got to Mentzer as bad as it did. It seems this loss - Arnold’s win over eveybody else and not just himself, was the turning point for him and his life took the downward spiral from there.
Thank you, @tzabcan, I completely agree with you, except for the last point when you say that for Mentzer it was the turning point and his life took the downward spiral from there. When I look at his interviews posted by John Little (here MIKE MENTZER INTERVIEW (1991): PART 1 - YouTube), I see an intelligent, secure and accomplished person which is a rare commodity among bodybuilders. He wrote several good books, had a successful mail-order business and a solid training clientele base. He matured intellectually and philosophically, although, I should admit, that the conclusions he derived from an attempt to apply the principles of objectivist philosophy to bodybuilding were wrong. (He didn’t grasp that as long as the principles are there, the applications can be different: the big picture (the proverbial forest) can be comprised of different particulars (trees)). Anyway, that was a feat of strength, and although he was not right in all aspects, he was right in some of them.
I’m thinking Mike was probably suffering from depression too. That is a crazy illness for so many.
I just heard an interview where a guy pointed out another thing about it I never thought about before.
He said sometimes someone’s depression is triggered by something like a loss of a job , which is understandable. But what is crazy is sometimes after that job loss the person finds an even better job that is even more satisfying and better paying than the one they lost.
He or she is now set financially and other ways in a position that the old job never could have done yet that person remains depressed on and off from that first loss when it appears to everyone that all is well and there’s no reason for that person to be depressed.
This might have been the case with Mentzer , who knows …
I always liked and respected him although I didn’t agree later on when he went overboard with those nutty consolidated workouts of two sets every ten days or whatever it was. I’ll bet if he were around now he’d have admitted the mistake of too little volume and adjusted things .
Mentzer looks the best!
I cannot recall who once said it, but Arnold even at 80% of his best was still above everyone else.
According to someone (Val) who worked with Mentzer, shortly before his death he started to realize this ultra brief, ultra infrequent consolidation approach was not correct, but he felt he boxed himself into that “failure” corner with his approach. Supposedly Mentzer was considering something more along the lines of Heavy Duty I with maybe just shy of failure. I think some of Mentzer’s general routines (like HD I - and even II) can be effective with modifications for the individual. You don’t have to go to 100% failure (let alone all of the time) and you still need some volume and frequency on a reasonable schedule. Potentially hitting chest with one set once a month is not reasonable IMO.
Agreed. I know back in the 90s from talking to him on multiple occasions, philosophy was his real passion, not training. I think his Heavy Duty approach turned in a philosophical epistemology exercise of sorts for him versus based on science and the actual outcome of his training ideas (and by some reports, his records on his training clients were not very good). What I think should happen (based on my interpretation of logic) can be much different than what actually happens - this was his mistake.
I loved to read stuff Mentzer wrote and he had a great physique but I never felt he was one who would win many contests against the best. I always felt his hips were to wide like Viator so no matter what he just didn’t have that big v taper sleek small hip look like a Serge Nubret that’s wins the big ones.
Scott
Agreed, Mentzer had a great physique, but at the level he was competing at, he looked a bit too blocky to me. Good point about his hips…and I think his lat width lacked a bit too. He was thick and dense looking, but was missing that pleasing aesthetic look…which Arnold had WELL above anyone else from that era.
Although I got into bodybuilding first seeing photo of Arnold, he never had a “WOW!” physique for me, even during his best years (1973-1974). Only few are within that “wow” category for me: Steve Reeves, Serge Nubret, Mohammed Makkawy, Mike Mentzer, Frank Zane, Shawn Ray. In relation to Mike’s hips and lats: I would prefer him to have wider shoulders, but you can’t overcome your genetics. Still he was incredible in several of his signature poses. Recently I’ve watched a video of Mr. North America 1977 posted by John Little and Mike looked so much better than all other competitors there. A truly complete package, although very different from all the above mentioned.
I agree about the lats*, but disagree with both of you about the hips. Arnie’s hips are every bit as wide as Mike’s AND those over-developed obliques don’t help the case. Zane and Dickerson are the only narrow-hipped physiques in that picture. Always felt Arnold was too pec-heavy and slope-shouldered. And his forearms looked too thin compared to his upper arms.
(*interestingly, Mike’s lats may be his only musle group with “short” muscle belly/connections…)
Mentzer was about 15 years too early on the scene with the package he could have brought. Take his genetics and structure, give him 90s PED and diet knowledge and put him in the competition scene around 1995 and he would have had a very successful career as a Mr. Olympia.
So Mentzer is victorious over Dorian Yates and Ronnie Coleman? Huh?
If Mentzer had access to the same drugs as those guys, who knows. But I do think Yates and Coleman’s greater height is an advantage.
Mentzer would towered over Jay Cutler, like that would have helped him.
IMO, each person has the time that they can be the best they can be compared to the competition. “Ifs” are irrelevant.
Maybe Larry Scott would have done poorly in today’s competition, but he was clearly the best those first 2 Olympia years.
Blockquote
If he could have kept his waist tight pushing the drugs and insulin sure. Height wise he’s only a couple of inches shorter than both of them. I don’t see it being a factor.
You’re missing the point and context of the discussion.
Probably so. And what do I know about judging bodybuilding contests?
I just abhor ifs and buts, candy, and nuts, even this close to Christmas.
If you can’t handle defeat, even unfair defeat, maybe you should shy away from competition.
A couple of months ago I discussed the '80 Mr Olympia farce with Roger Walker. We had a lovely chat, where he outlined how it played out. Arnold was visibly shaking on stage … nervous about how dismal he looked, despite the safety of his friends being on the panel, voting for him. His confidence was shaky as he knew he was far from contest ready (evident by his swimmer legs). Roger looked into his eyes and odd behavior. (check Arnold’s redness and head veins) Cocaine is a hell of a drug!
Regarding “the fix”; the judge who dared vote against Arnold in the pre-judging was promptly removed and dismissed by the evening contest. It was set-up from go to whoa, so Weider’s Golden Boy would be given the title. There was no win, as he didn’t “win” anything. He was gifted the title, for more reasons than has ever been revealed.
I rang Roger as part of my efforts to contribute and help polish the coming documentary. I have been sworn to secrecy by the producer, but have been privy to the rough-cut. I stayed up till the wee hours devouring the reality of the most controversial contest in history. (Pumping Iron’s prison scene is a key).
It should be complete in 2022, aimed to be picked up by a major film company. Once the truth is out, and people grasp the true Arnold (not the one who’s publicist receives big money to keep him squeaky clean in the public eye), he’ll finally be revealed for what he is (far from what anyone imagines). Next year, everyone’s questions over the '80 Mr Olympia travesty will be answered once and for all. Stay tuned!